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I don't want to presume to make any judgements that should be God's to make. Considering demographics (2000 years and 100x as many Trinitarians vs 200 years and much fewer Mormons), I would not be surprised if there are more "Trinitarians during mortality" in the CK than "Mormons during mortality". I could be wrong, but, like I tried to suggest earlier, I am not sure that I expect the question of Trinitarianism vs. Modalism vs. whatever picture of 3 in 1/1 in 3 that makes sense to you is a major question when God passes final judgements. The old joke this kind of topic reminds me of is the one where St. Peter is showing the newly deceased around heaven. Here are the Baptists, here are the Catholics, ... and who is in this building? Shhh. These are the Mormons. They think they are the only ones here.

The above verse refers to John, not Jesus so the question remains - when did Jesus receive the Holy Ghost? Luke 1: 13 - 16 13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filledwith the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

Luke 1:15

Grimm was great...now for the current season! Shutter Island. Meh...kind of slow, but the story was interesting. 2.5/5

Well done! As and aside, speaking of Tamar and Rahab, I think it bears noting that Jesus Christ also descended from David and Bathsheba (Matt 1:6). I think Bathsheba gets a bad rap sometimes, but in that instance, it was David who was a very bad boy, and an anointed king, no less.

Agreed; I just think its important not to fall into the trap of thinking that we are somehow spiritually stunted because the modern LDS leadership supposedly lacks some of the keys that Joseph held. The record is clear--Joseph stands unique as head of this dispensation; but otherwise, whatever keys he held the modern LDS leadership also holds. If we don't attain the fullness of which you speak, we have only ourselves to blame.

I agree keys exist in our church. They are necessary to do important work. However, there are still keys of the mysteries of the kingdom of God and keys of the knowledge of God that we ought to possess. I mean each of us. This is what "Moses plainly taught" to everyone. This is what Joseph also tried to teach the saints. If we had ALL the keys, we'd be Zion and more. Zion is not yet redeemed and therefore, we do not have association with angels, with translated beings and with God. We would necessarily be as Enoch--translated. Alas, we still wander in the wilderness, as it were. There are greater keys, still, such as the keys of resurrection. But that is almost another topic alone.

I agree with much of what you write, but I would suggest/clarify that Joseph's death--while tragic--did not deprive us of any necessary priesthood keys. The fact that we only speak openly of it in most holy places, doesn't mean that it is gone from us as a church or as individuals. Multiple apostles claimed Joseph rolled all of his keys off to them. Either a) they were telling the truth, and the Q12 still has them today; b) they were telling the truth, but the Q12 subsequently lost them; or c) they were lying usurpers and Joseph never gave them the keys at all. I vote a). :)

I was going to address the original idea based on what the prophets and apostles have taught (i.e. Jesus had the Holy Ghost from his birth (as already pointed out) and that at His baptism he received a fullness of knowledge), but this thread has taken such a weird turn that I think I'll just stay out altogether.

Where is Palerider and what did you do with him?

Is um and ahhhh your middle names?

I want you to know I have a very good memory. Now...what was the question again?

Does watching the NCAA tourney count ?? Lol

Very nice

Will you be going in to hiding?

Hence the question - because I don't know. If I did, I wouldn't have asked. :) But in this short part of the discussion, which regrettably no one else has participated in, we have only explored one possibility, and have arrived at an I don't know conclusion. Perhaps others may have more to contribute.

aww

This is like the old joke about how when we get to heaven you will know I was right about things...

I'm sick to death of all these you should drink coffee for your health/coffee is bad for your health scientific articles. Seems they are just coming from different angles. You'd think the medical community could come up with a definitive coffee is bad/good status and stick to it. I'm with anatess. Outside the WoW, approach it holistically.

Smith declared that there were two orders of the priesthood in 1835, one being Aaronic, and one being Melchizedek (D&C 107). in May of 1843, he then declared that that to enter the highest order of the celestial kingdom, one must enter into into the order of priesthood associated with the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. (D&C 131). Then, in August of 1843, he made the statement about the Patriarchal order. He was dead ten months later and never really wrote down anything more about it. To my knowledge, it was never really discussed afterward. In all of the turmoil of getting to Utah and establishing society, it turned into an interesting bit of trivia, but no real (public) attempt has ever been made clarify what this order entails. The interpretations have been varied over the years, and even the current Apostles aren't really agreed on what it is. President Packer has made statements that are quite clear that it is held by men, but not by women. But in one of last year's General Conferences, one of the Twelve (I was thinking it was Elder Andersen, but I'm having trouble finding it--time to finish up my package for text searching General Conference Talks) indicated that husbands and wives hold it jointly. I think it's fair to say "we don't know what this is."

I believe we can surmise the answer to this question by consulting the scriptures. In the 7th chapter of Luke we read: 40. And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he said, Master, say on.41. There was a certain Capitalist which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.42. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, had this man been a lawyer, would he have forgiven the debt?43. Simon answered and said, are you kidding me! He would have had both of them thrown into jail until they paid the uttermost farthing. 44. And Jesus said unto him, thou hast rightly judged. There's no need for any of you to look this up. I'm certain I copied it correctly.

In that same August 1843 sermon Joseph taught that another of the orders was Levitical (aka Aaronic). Sometime earlier--probably before he was teaching anything about the patriarchal order--Joseph taught that "all priesthood is Melchizedek"--in other words, that the Levitical priesthood is merely a subset of the Melchizedek. I think most LDS writers generally assume that the patriarchal priesthood, like the Aaronic, is similarly in essence a subset of the Melchizedek Priesthood. One could also conclude it from the claims of various early apostles that Joseph Smith rolled all of the keys he held off onto them; in conjunction with the later reorganization of a first presidency under Brigham Young and what D&C 107 says about the First Presidency--they are high priests, and preside by virtue of their ordinations within the Melchizedek Priesthood. It would seem nonsensical to suggest that the presiding high priests of the LDS Church do not also control the "patriarchal priesthood" (though the ideological forefathers of the FLDS claim exactly that; and I think their claims might be a big reason why we don't talk about the "patriarchal order" very much these days and why the office of Church Patriarch has been allowed to fade away). Would Joseph have structured things this way, had he lived longer? No idea. Honestly, I don't know that he really focused on systematizing and tying together all of the revelations he received.

http://askgramps.org/29922/many-priesthoods

That would be a first. Lol