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My son got married this weekend. Of course, the folks at church who are his age have been married 10-15 years, but better late than never, I suppose. We had rain, but it stopped for the outdoor wedding and every time we had to do something, so that worked out (big shout out, HF!). Now for the grandkids!

In the classic Superman movie series (Superman 3), starring Christopher Reeve, we find that Superman is contaminated by some Kryptonite. In an interesting scene, the evil Superman lands in an auto junkyard, screams, and then has his alter-ego, Clark Kent, emerge. The two duke it out, until the real Man of Steel, his true identity, wins. Today, we find people struggling with their true identities. Bruce Jenner is now Caitlyn. Rachel Dolezal insists she is African American, though her white parents dispute it. Some have green hair, multiple piercings and tattooes. Others may find their identity in their sexuality, drug use, religion, education, wealth, possessions, ethnicity, etc. Many are coming forth to distinguish themselves from everyone else Facebook, Twitter and other online services help people come forth to say, “Here I am! Look at ME!” Sadly, such focus on certain temporal particulars of ourselves actually cause us to lose our fully authentic selves. The Book of Mormon actually talks of a time when the people knew their true selves: And it came to pass that there was no contention in the land, because of the love of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people. And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness; and surely there could not be a happierpeople among all the people who had been created by the hand of God.. There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were inone, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God. (4 Nephi 1:15-17) We see that the people did not distinguish themselves. They were not Nephites nor Lamanites, but found their true, secret identity: “children of Christ and heirs to the kingdom of God” Satan wins when he divides us. The divisions come when he confuses us over what our true identity is. The Book of Mormon continually notes fine clothing as a sign of division, as we later see in 4 Nephi: And now, in this two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world. And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them. And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, and began to deny the true church of Christ. (4 Nephi 1:24-26). No longer equals as children of God, they sought out their own ways. As Elder L. Tom Perry noted in General Conference, We want our voice to be heard against all of the counterfeit and alternative lifestyles that try to replace the family organization that God Himself established. Elder Perry explained that the family organization is an eternal and important component of who we really are. To look at just one small part of who we possibly may be and to make it the center of our devotion to self, is to listen to the soothing lies of Satan, who is glad to give us the philosophies of men with some scripture mingled in. Because of our culture of wrong identity, we see an America that is shrinking in its belief in Christ and goodness. Even as with the apostate Nephites in 4 Nephi, many of the sins of their day are now becoming commonplace and accepted, even preferred. And it came to pass that they who rejected the gospel were called Lamanites, and Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites; and they did not dwindle in unbelief, but they did wilfully rebel against the gospel of Christ; and they did teach their children that they should not believe, even as their fathers, from the beginning, did dwindle….And it came to pass that two hundred and forty and four years had passed away, and thus were the affairs of the people. And the more wicked part of the people did wax strong, and became exceedingly more numerous than were the people of God….And it came to pass that the robbers of Gadianton did spread over all the face of the land; and there were none that were righteous save it were the disciples of Jesus. And gold and silver did they lay up in store in abundance, and did traffic in all manner of traffic. (4 Nephi 1:38-46)Suddenly, we see that big business and wealth replaced charity and oneness. As they grew wicked, the law of God and the knowledge of being God’s children were replaced once again by envyings, strifes, tumults, whoredoms, lyings, murders, and any manner of lasciviousness (sexuality). Marriage is diminished as people use no-fault divorce, live together, or change God’s pattern for something else. God’s plan of consecration and providing for the poor is offended by those who enrich themselves in false government programs that maintain a war on poverty that only grows the numbers of poor. God’s love for his children and His desire for them to be like him are twisted by Satan’s counterfeit claims of radical freedom: justifying alternative lifestyles, dishonesty, and contention. It isn’t something new. Satan confused Cain into declaring himself unique: And Cain said: Truly I am Mahan, the master of this great secret, that I may murder and get gain. Wherefore Cain was called Master Mahan, and he gloried in his wickedness. And Cain went into the field, and Cain talked with Abel, his brother. And it came to pass that while they were in the field, Cain rose up against Abel, his brother, and slew him. And Cain gloried in that which he had done, saying: I am free; surely the flocks of my brother falleth into my hands. (Moses 5:31-33) How many of us proclaim ourselves free of God, by taking up our own counterfeit identity? And we see if increasing in America. Satan is currently winning the battle of the hearts of men, so that “even the elect are deceived” in some cases. Rather than encouraging alternative lifestyles, we should be encouraging all to reveal their true secret identity: children of God and heirs of his kingdom.

Maureen, you have asked why a couple shouldn't get married civilly first then wait the one year to be sealed. Others have explained that we believe the answer is that God said so. For us, that's enough. For others, they don't believe that God is saying that. But, I'd like to answer you differently. Whenever we put others before God, even if we eventually make our way to God, we lose blessings and/or opportunities. I can't tell you what blessings or what opportunities. As one friend put it, "when we miss opportunities to be obedient, our relationship with God suffers." Just as it is when we are disobedient with other commandments, so it is to Mormons regarding being sealed in the temple. When we choose to disobey, we forfeit something....blessings, being close to God, the Spirit, etc. This doesn't mean that we don't believe one can't later develop in their personal relationship with God to put Him first or that they don't receive any blessings at all if they choose to be sealed after a civil ceremony. But again, just as if you choose to place God above ANYTHING in your life, there are consequences--sometimes not seen in this life.

Just as a note - there is an individual - not completely what some would call active and does not fit into the norm of professionals in my somewhat upscale Utah ward - his profession is truck driver. He, after much encouragement gave a talk in sacrament meeting. He said he was not much at talking so most of his talk he sang hymns unaccompanied. He will never have a recording contract - but it was one of the very few talks that have brought me to tears and touch me even more than most conference talks. BTW the tears were not because of his poor singing but such a spirit I have seldom encountered.

It's really the Salt Lake Tribune but they have earned the name Tribulation.

These threads on here take the strangest turns. I blame the strange people on this board.

Just wanted to update: I have done some scripture reading every day this week and went to church yesterday and I feel so much better, overall. I am making an effort to remind myself that by having a strong faith I am not losing ME I am developing better aspects of myself. So overall I am feeling better and I do appreciate all the input.

After I got off my mission I worked for a year, then an opportunity came up for me to teach english in Japan on a 6 month contract. When I got there I quickly found the local ward, went to church and met the members and leaders. The second week at church they introduced me to my home teachers. The third week was the last time that I went to church as I slowly met non-member friends and found other things to do on sundays. The first, second, third, and fourth month I got no contact from my HT's. At this point I was inactive and not happy about certain choices I had made. I had a picture of Jesus Christ hanging on the wall and I would look at it everyday thinking about how much I loved him but was so sorry for my actions. It felt as though my apartment was dark and gloomy and I noticed that I had cause the spirit to withdraw itself, I remember one time even crying and feeling sad for myself. During the fifth month I was laying in my living room watching tv, the phone rang and I answered it, it was my hometeacher calling to schedule a visit, his voice carried the Holy Ghost and I felt it through the phone. He and his partner came over the next week and when they walked in they brought the spirit back into my apartment as it was also emanating within them. This experience was a clear testament to me that home teaching and visiting teaching is of the Lord, when we are on the Lord's errand he is also with us to bless the lives of our fellow saints. Its sad that us members get too caught up in thinking that it is an "assignment", an "assigned friend" or whatever. It really is a blessing and I didnt realize it until I experienced it first hand.

This is not entirely accurate. The church has one of the seer stones, as I understand it, in their archives. The Urim and Thummin was taken back.

I once had a conversation like that with someone and I became somewhat frustrated and said ..... Not sure what your seeing the plates or anyone else for that matter would do .....I mean after all the Saviour was on the earth and no one believed him. They person stared at me and walked away. Never had another conversation again about religion.

I'm not sure I want to wade into this whole identity thing. After all, I'm a Pentecostal who dresses like a Catholic, and moderates at an LDS site. My best friend is Southern Baptist, and I stole my wife from the Presbyterians. ... I'll just play it safe, and keep my eyes on Jesus.

1) I tend to see this more as us trying to use the language that Evangelicals are accustomed to as we try to explain our theology in words they will hopefully better understand. At the same time, I also think that we sometimes try to put the best possible "spin" on it so that it will be more palatable. 2) I think we do sometimes "sideline" controversial topics, mostly seeing them as a "line upon line" thing. When you understand and accept the "milk" of LDS theology, then you will be in a better position to understand the deeper "meat" of LDS thought. 3-6) Yes, I think that we are (or maybe just I am) getting better at discerning the things we share in common and the things that truly separate us. I sometimes think that this improves as we become less fearful of looking anything like the other side. I see some LDS who reject some of the truths that I see in Evangelicalism because, "we cannot afford to look anything like them." Sometimes I wonder if this also shows up on the other side of the divide -- "that sounds like something Mormons might believe so I have to reject it." It is an interesting discussion as it goes. I do not know if we will ever be done with this discussion, until Christ Himself returns to the earth and teaches us all how He views the discussion. Until then, I hope that we continue to try to have a rational, respectful debate that acknowledges both the commonalities and the differences between our belief systems.

I think he was saying that different truths are of varying levels of importance. Truths can also be interpreted differently. Are we interpreting what the BoM says from our own perspective, or from the perspective of Nephi or Joseph Smith? Or God? World views differ depending on how a person defines her world. For me, Zion and "Promised Land" are all of North and South America, because that is what Joseph Smith told us.

Here's an interesting take on the issue: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2015/06/what-i-learned-from-the-responses-to-my-post-about-mormonism/ He mentions Millet, and sees some of the same issues I do: 1. Increasing trend towards explaining LDS doctrines in a way that sounds orthodox to traditional Christian ears. 2. Sidelining (though not dismissing or disowning) of some teachings that are controversial to those same ears. 3. Recognizing that many LDS teachings now fit within traditional orthodoxy. 4. Recognizing that some still do not 5. Finding easier to believe that many LDS fit into a traditional, even evangelical, understanding of "Christian" 6. Realizing that the church institutional still officially declares doctrines that are not traditional or evangelical (thus not "orthodox" to our understanding) Yes/no/maybe/maybe/no/yes... Of course, if it was easy, many of us would not still be here. :-)

I am of a much different opinion and have faith in the work and glory of our Father in heaven. My father would tell me - "You are today what you have spent and struggled for an eternity becoming." Then he would say, "If you want to change anything all you have to do is make that change starting now." It is my observation that what happens to us as mortals is not to wash us out of the program - but rather to prepare and teach us to better understand and appreciate the program. Also I do not understand why some are worried - it is my impression that there is no one here that is so far from the way or path home that they cannot make it and I honestly do not believe that the Celestial Kingdom is all that far away.

Perhaps I should have also asked - How do we know when G-d intervenes and what does he do when he intervenes? Is the evidence of his interventions known spiritually or is their any empirical evidence? Is it possible that we may be trying to measure the wrong things?

I don't really get that. well from the conversation it still looks positive. i'd probably have said somehting to the tune of " this is where God has sent me, and since then i've seen things people have said absolutely don't exist"

one of the interesting things i heard daniel peterson say (paraphrased) is that it's the philosophies an doctrines that have overlapping similarities that tend to have more contention between them.

Yes, death is a door but it is not an end. Nephi says, "I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation" (2 Ne 33:9). For some, like Alma, or the three Nephites, their probationary period ended before they partook of death. For others their probationary period continues into the spirit world and will only end when they are brought before the judgement bar. Now, regarding our calling and election. It is a promise received through the Holy Ghost and I believe it is worth every effort. However, from what I have learned, our work is not done at such a point, our probation does not end. The Lord has told us what we will receive but we have not yet obtained eternal life. Rather, we have gained a more sure witness and received added light of the second Comforter, "Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; ...This comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom. (D&C 88:3-4). Through the second comforter we will have added strength, clarity of vision and a more abiding peace in our hearts but we must continue to grow and learn. Not until we can rend the veil of our unbelief and walk back in all humility to the Father will our probation end.

Luke 6 God is kind to the unthankful and to the evil. I think God loves all of His children equally and intervenes on their behalf as needed and as He desires to bless them. I believe God is intimately involved in our lives from the very beginning. The righteous have the benefit of having peace by knowing that we commended ourselves in to His care when we came to this earth and the unthankful and the evil are loved unconditionally by the Father as well and I am certain, based on Luke 6 that God is intervening on their behalf as well. I was sexually abused severely as a child and I know with certainty that God intended for me to be placed in to the conditions He placed me and that despite the abuse, God has been with me the whole time. I see His hand in my life as He uses means to bring about His purposes. The atonement is what makes all of this possible. God has been good to me and continues to be good to me and I know that I am not special or any more special than anyone else, therefore I believe God has been and continues to be good to all of His children. He is no respector of persons. -Finrock

Pam, mordorbund wants his account deactivated, please take care of that soonest.

Many have wondered if Emma Smith had a testimony of her own or did she fall back on Joseph's. Ask Gramps answers this question. http://askgramps.org/24099/emma-hale-smith-testimony

Good Ol' MG will always shake hands with others, even when his hands are already shaking!

Congrats! You could always ask really inappropriate questions to get the ball rolling as far as grandkids. "So, how did it go last night? Do you feel like you are pregnant yet?"

And I wish non members wouldn't accuse us of being judgmental when questions are asked and they get answered... The answer is that a Member couple should not wait to get sealed. Yet simply stating that and explaining why get us labelled as "Judgmental". Acknowledging that the Member parents have just as much right to "upset" if their child chooses to forgo a Sealing for a Civil ceremony is somehow "judgmental" But the Non-member being "upset" about being excluded are not being "Judgmental". Hypocrisy Yet somehow its only the active and faithful members that are being "Judgmental" in trying to influence the Kids.

What does what Mitt Romney did have to do with anything?

Some more thoughts about temple symbolism. I think that we tend to think in literal terms and not realize that symbolism is being used so that we can begin to see things at many levels. For example - I wonder if the "creation" taught in the temple is not really about the creation but that the creation as presented is symbolic of things that are related to what we think of as the creation but inclusive of so much more that relates to us - our participation in the creation and why there is a mediator to deal with the Father and Satan is necessary for man.

Rednecks ain't PC they say what they think

I was taught, that if one knows they should be sealed in the temple, chooses not to, and then dies before going to the temple after a civil marriage, that this could keep them from Celestial Glory. Being sealed in the Temple is more than just culture for LDS. If one knows the Temple is where one should be married, and chooses not to, then they are choosing a lesser alternative, which could prevent them from attaining Celestial Glory. I know there are exceptions to this, such as, not living within a reasonable distance from a temple, etc. The Lord will know what is in one's heart.

Would you say this was intervention? My mother was driving with her seven children in the car. It was dark with no traffic traveling the same direction as us. We were coming up to a stop light, and it was green for us. All of a sudden my mother had to sneeze, and such a big sneeze that she pulled over and stopped right before the green light. As she paused, a car sped through the intersection that would have broad-sided us if we had continued through the light. I venture to say that some of us might have been killed or at least seriously injured. Except for the Spirit, there is no way to know if this was divine intervention. Some would say it's just coincidence. That was the only time in her life my mother decided to stop driving for a sneeze. The Spirit whispers to me that this was divine intervention. My father was hit by a train while crossing the railroad tracks in his pickup. He left seven children behind. There was no intervention. My daughter died in a car accident at the age of 19 leaving behind a 2-month-old baby. Again, no intervention. I have pondered the whys and the why nots of divine intervention, and believe it all has to do with God's will and man's agency. I certainly do pray for God's protection in the lives of my loved ones. If I didn't believe that God could step in and intervene I would see no reason to pray for protection.

From Oct 1976 conference (President Kimball):

Great post, yjacket. Thanks. Labels like "cop haters" and "copsuckers" (As in sucking up) are not helpful in these discussions because once you pigeonhole someone like that you cease to listen to what they have to say... and how can people ever come together, like in yjacket's post, if they aren't listening to each other?

The scripture you mentioned was Matthew 10:37. Just because a bride and groom loves their parents doesn't mean they love God less. Can you show me a scripture where God commands that temple sealings are commanded and any less is a sin against God? That type of a scripture would make Matthew 10:37 fit your argument. Also, if a couple chooses to have a civil wedding and then have their sealing a year later; does not the sealing make everything right with God? My whole argument is that if a temple sealing is the ultimate goal, what does it matter when it happens, it should only matter that it does happen. M.

I find your response most interesting. In line, even with older not so long ago teachings, is that as the end time approaches the entire world will be divided into two basic camps. The foundation of the two camps - we understand to be Christ and his restored church and those that for what ever reason align themselves with us - this is called Zion and her allies. The other camp will be be called Babylon and those that align themselves with her. Perhaps as LDS we need to be more welcoming (even forgiving and trusting) with our friends - this would not require any new revelation and only a little change in attitude. Anyway that is my thought - as as for change in attitude - I am almost there already. So regardless of who thinks they are first at it - may I welcome you to this great cause.

It could simply be a subtlety, such as new revelation from church prophets suggesting that the past LDS emphasis on the apostasy, and on the undue influence of Greek philosophy on traditional Christian theology, was necessary to establish the Restoration. However, now, as Christian faith in general is under increasing attack, the time has come to build bridges of cooperation with the larger Christian world. In such a context, professors and scholars, like Peterson and Millet, could be charged with doing even more to explain LDS commonalities with Evangelicalism (and Catholicism, for that matter). I'm not predicting or prophesying such an event. However, if something like that happened, might we not be one or two generations away from LDS being perceived much like Adventists--having unique teachings, but being within the family? God's done bigger things before.

Since when is marriage not a commitment?

Here is my non-LDS advice. Get married so that your parents and family and your future husband's parents and family can be there and celebrate with you during the ceremony. So many people in your shoes who were converts regret that they did not include their parents and family by having a temple wedding. A year will pass very quickly and then you and your husband will know for sure that you will want to spend eternity together. Your sealing will be very private and intimate without the worrying of offending anyone. M.

With Vort, I am also a strong believer in evolution and an old earth. The Bible does not require a young earth, nor does it require that there be no evolution. It only requires that there was an Adam and Eve. Even then, it does not require that the are the DNA ancestors of all mankind, just the spiritual/cultural ancestors of all people, just as Lehi is the cultural ancestor of all modern Indians in the Americas. Both Mormons and Evangelicals (along with all Christians) tend to add layers of requirements onto the religion that do not need to be there. Nowhere in the Bible or LDS scripture does it require us to believe that God is a Trinity or a Godhead. These are additions we add. The scriptures only require us to believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost - without defining what those persons are necessarily like. Yes, the D&C tells us about physical bodies, but we still do not know what that means entirely. Our minds cannot comprehend what a glorified physical or spiritual body really is like. So our brains fill in details, whether they are correct or not. While knowledge is important, I truly do not think God cares one way or the other if we know he is 3 persons in one God, or 3 persons in one Godhead. Regardless of which one is more correct, our understanding still falls very short of what/who God is. As mentioned in a talk in General Conference, a person was angry with another person who did something terribly wrong and so complained to the Lord. The Spirit whispered to the complainer: "From where I stand, you two look pretty much the same." From where God stands, Trinity and Godhead are both lacking in a fullness of understanding and knowing God.

I would just show up, the ward clerk "should" approach you and ask for your information so that your records can be moved, or you can contact your current ward clerk and give him your new address and he will push your records to the new ward. If you do it that way they will know you are coming.

In my opinion, there is no "line between celestial and terrestrial". There is an unbridgeable gulf. I do not believe the difference between the two is a difference of quantity or amount, but rather of quality or type. I do not believe that anyone throughout all eternity will ever say, "Oh, if only I had done my home teaching that one time in October, I would have Made It®!"

The term new and everlasting covenant is used frequently throughout the Doctrine and Covenants. President Joseph Fielding Smith gave the following definition of it: “The new and everlasting covenant is the fulness of the gospel. It is composed of ‘All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations’ that are sealed upon members of the Church by the Holy Spirit of promise, or the Holy Ghost, by the authority of the President of the Church who holds the keys. The President of the Church holds the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood. He delegates authority to others and authorizes them to perform the sacred ordinances of the priesthood. “Marriage for eternity is a new and everlasting covenant. Baptism is also a new and everlasting covenant, and likewise ordination to the priesthood, and every other covenant is everlasting and a part of the new and everlasting covenant which embraces all things.” (Answers to Gospel Questions, 1:65.)

I'm a germaphobe so I'm super sceptical about public refreshments and potlucks but it does seem a bit silly to me that a drink or cookie would take away a positive feeling or experience. Of course this is all a matter of opinion, it seems, I don't think there's a wrong or right answer necessarily. I always thought get-togethers post funeral services were a bit odd, in that people sat around and ate - visited - laughed even, right after burying someone in the ground. I dunno, it's a preference thing for sure depending on situation.

The fact you are posing the question and torturing youself over the incident says you haven't forgiven yourself. Personnally, opening up to your bishop or wife will only exacerbate the issue. Some things (forgiven sins) you should let go, and if you can't let them go, take them to your grave. Now, if you were to do it again...differnet story. As your wife, I'd castrate you. :)

The advise you get from me will be different form what you hear from others on this Board. Your "sins" stopped with kissing and you have broken off the "relationship". You prayed/asked for forgiveness, stopped taking the sacrament, and now generally feel pretty good about yourself. I say mission accomplished. #1 I wouldn't talk to the bishop if it was me, but it's not. Talk to him if you want a sounding board or feel that greater admission of guilt is necessary. #2 No way should you tell your wife, you have broken her trust this is not something that you can easily get back. Be smart do not throw your life or your wife's into turmoil for something that is done and over with. This is in the take it to the grave category for me. Let the Lord sort it out