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  1. 5 points
    My feelings exactly. It is not the ignorance, but the faithlessness, that I find galling.
  2. 4 points
    And just think, up until June 26 2015, everyone was all "All we want is the right to marry. Give us that and you and your church can go do whatever it wants." They didn't want to tell us what to do, they didn't want us to tell them what to do. It was such an easy choice. Right?
  3. 4 points
    Vort

    Modesty

    Modesty as a principle is literally not even understood by many of this generation. It is an attitude, reflected in but not defined by clothing choices. Modesty is the refusal to use one's body as a sexual bargaining chip. Sexuality is (or should be) sacred and precious; modest people are those who keep it as such. The Saudi Muslim girl who exposes some of her scalp and makes eyes at the boys is being immodest, while the American Christian girl who wears shorts and a short-sleeved blouse to a service activity may well be perfectly modest. It is not primarily a matter of clothing, but of intent.
  4. 3 points
    The solution to the problem of the sexualization of women is not modesty. The solution to the problem of pornography addictions is not modesty. Any man or woman can "undress" and think inappropriately about a woman's body with modest clothing on. You cannot control the mind of a man or woman with the intent to sexualize a woman/man. The solution to these problems is changing how we view each other. That we are sons and daughters of God. That girl, who is in a porn movie, is a daughter of God, and DOES NOT deserve to be viewed as a sexualized object just because she is dressed "provocatively" in your mind. She also does not deserve to be raped just because she was dressed "immodestly/provocatively" (I don't believe you are assuming this but I want to make that very clear for anyone who believes such a foolish notion). I don't ever think this will be a solution feasible in our society. But we cannot just say "hey women, stop dressing so provocatively. It's reminding me of the porn I watch and makes me want to sexualize you". This is completely putting the women at fault when they have done NOTHING. You may say that they have by dressing immodestly. There may be women out there who specifically dress provocatively to get the attention of men. That is THEIR choice. For LDS members, who are taught to treat their body as a temple and respect the gift they have been given from God, the choice of modesty is between the individual, God, and their parents (if under the age of 18). Any repercussions beyond their choice of dress (i.e., someone sexualizing her/him because of their choice of clothing) is the fault of the person choosing to follow the ill thoughts of their mind. We have agency to choose to dress modestly or not. We have agency to choose to not view a man or woman with sexual intent. We have agency to choose to look at pornography or not. I do believe it can become an addiction and I do believe and know the power of addictions. But we are not a slave to our mind. There will always be immodestly dressed individuals on this Earth (intentionally or unintentionally). As to your studies about men viewing pornography and then gradually assuming rape is okay: this is not in the case for "regular" pornography. This is only the case for violent pornography. The correlations about pornography and less understanding about consent, rape, assault, etc. is found for only violent pornography. This does not mean I think any form of pornography is better than the other. It is all horrific and detrimental to society. I understand your reasoning and I am so very sorry for the things you have experienced in your past. But I cannot agree that modesty is the solution to this overwhelming problem.
  5. 2 points
    https://www.lds.org/pages/church-handbook-changes?lang=eng Here is a copy of a letter sent to all Church leaders down to Bishops.
  6. 2 points
    zil

    Terror attack in Paris

    Doriette, please accept my deepest sympathy for you, and all who have loved ones in Paris, especially loved ones hurt or killed in these attacks. I am praying for all of you; having been denied peace in the world, may you have the Savior's peace.
  7. 2 points
    Godless

    Million Student March

    Get off my lawn!
  8. 2 points
    Vort

    Modesty

    I think this is a little like saying that yeast infections are not a female-specific problem, or that breast cancer is not a female-specific problem. Both statements are true, technically. But no health care professional would make such a statement. There is not (currently) nearly as much of an industry for male-centered pornography as for female-centered porn; what exists is mostly homosexual in nature. The reasons for this are obvious: The natural man is attracted to nekkid women, loves to see women's body parts, up close or in a more overall context, and in general just likes the look of an attractive women sans clothing. The natural woman does not typically have this same response; the sight of a nude man, even an attractive one, typically doesn't do a whole lot for a woman. Thus, women commonly trade on their sexuality with regards to men, but men do not trade on their sexuality with women -- or at least not in the same way. Female immodesty results in catcalls, ogling, appreciative looks, indecent proposals -- in short, attention, much of which might be perceived as positive. Male immodesty typically results in mocking and insults. So the two simply are not equivalent, and the difficulties of immodesty are nowhere near equally divided between the sexes.
  9. 2 points
    Very well clarified. Many people should feel embarrassed about this entire thing. Not for the lack of understanding, but for taking to social media to publicly declare their frustrations and anger for not understanding immediately upon hearing from sources that have ulterior motives. I was reminded last night while reading in 1st Nephi that Nephi wanted to understand the mysteries of God as his father (a Prophet) did. Instead of whining and complaining to everyone about it (as we do to social media) Like Laman and Lemuel, he prayed to God and was visited and learned for himself. We see this pattern in the BOM many times, if you have questions and concerns go to the Lord, seek to be reassured by the Holy Ghost, do not trust in the understanding of men, uninspired men and women will surely lead astray. I have a feeling that this is what will separate the faithful from the unfaithful more and more. I was warned by my Bishop years ago, as he was warned by the brethren that a storm was coming and I needed to make sure my testimony was strong and that my family was as strong to weather the storm. Those warnings have been ringing true ever since.
  10. 1 point
    This is part two about modesty. Read part one first. So, what are reasons for being modest? Before I get into that, let me first tell you about some of my past, so you can understand my stand regarding modesty. I've mentioned in other posts that I was sexually assaulted as a child for several years. What I didn't mention was that before I turned seven years old, a middle aged neighbor got me into pornography. Seeing the porn made me understand what my three abusers were doing to me. I was addicted to the filth just after I turned seven and I spent nearly five decades as a porn addict. A few years ago, through a miraculous blessing and some intense, hard work, I was freed of that addiction. Some of the reasons for being modest have everything to do with pornography. I have toned this down as much as I can, but it is important you read this information. First off, I'm going to tell you a few statistics regarding porn use. Among fundamentalist Christians (I would classify the LDS in this category), fully half of the men have a problem with pornography. More than 20% of the women also have a problem with pornography. Fundamentalist Christians are 91% more likely to look at porn. One in three referrals to LDS Social Services are for pornography addiction. More statistics: 66% of boys and 16% of girls look at porn every week. 35% of teen boys say they have viewed porn videos “too many times to count.” 68% of young adult men and 18% of young adult women look at porn every week. 2/3 of college age men and ½ of college age women say viewing porn is an acceptable way to express one's sexuality. 55% of married men and 25% of married women say they watch porn at least once a month. 90% of boys and 70% of girls reported accessing sexually explicit media on at least one occasion. (Covenant Eyes) Now I'll tell you about how women are portrayed in pornographic videos. There are basically three themes to the majority of these videos. First is the woman who finds a man, sometimes a passing stranger, a co-worker, the “good” man next door, irresistible and cannot control herself. In this video the man is taken advantage of with the woman forcing herself onto him. She is more than ready and practically frantic in her desire for sex, and is willing to do any imaginable perversion. Second is the “unwilling” woman, who is taken advantage of by a man; sometimes a stranger, the guy in the bar, her boss, the doctor and basically raped. However, during the process of being raped, she realizes that she actually likes being sexually assaulted and ends up participating whole heartedly. Third, the majority, are those with violence. The woman is always the unwilling victim and is often bound and gagged, beaten, raped, and forced into doing any imaginable perversion. 88% of scenes in porn videos include sexual aggression. The reason this is important to understand is that this is how men involved in pornography are conditioned to think. Studies show that men who regularly look at pornography in as little as two weeks exposure begin to look at women as objects. They begin to minimize and even trivialize rape. With continued exposure, they don't even consider it a crime. In their eyes, it isn't rape; the women actually want to be sexually assaulted. Additionally, after minimal regular exposure, these men consider adultery to be normal and desirable. The longer and deeper a man delves into porn, the more his thinking processes degrades. When a man becomes addicted, his thinking process becomes perverted. To call the mind of a porn addict a cesspool would be insulting cesspools. Not only is rape trivialized, the addict fantasizes about committing rape. Women who fit what I term as “the porn profile” are the objects of his fantasies. He thinks about kidnapping women and using them, thinking that they will actually enjoy his attentions. The addict thinks that any woman who fits the profile just might want to have sex with him. The longer he is into porn, the more twisted his thinking becomes. This is only a very toned down version of how the addict thinks. Now comes the relationship between porn and modesty. The women who fit the porn profile are those whose dress reveals their figure. Even if they are fully covered, if their clothes hug their body revealing the outline of their figure, this is enough to fit the profile. The only thing that is necessary is for the female to have somewhat attractive enough figure; age doesn't matter until their body begins to age and sag. The problem is that almost no women realize that the clothes they wear put them into the “porn profile” category. The fashion industry designs women's clothing to form to and reveal the figure. They use stretch fabrics and cuts that reveal the body rather than conceal. Fabrics like stretch jersey knit are a favorite for tops. They make the woman look “feminine.” The neck lines are usually low and reveal a lot of skin. All they have to do to give a show is bend over. The skirts, dresses and pants are often cut so that they mold to and hug the midriff, buttocks and legs. Now, let me ask you a question. Do you want some guy fantasizing about raping you or your fourteen year old daughter? Do you want some guy, some old pervert, doing everything he can to get an eyeful? Do you want him hoping that you or your daughter will bend over and show some cleavage? This is what they are thinking! The guy heavy into porn doesn't look at your face. He checks out your chest, your waist, legs and buttocks; once he's done that, he will then look at your face to see if it agrees with his assessment of your body. When I was an addict, the only woman who didn't get my attention was the one who dressed in loose fitting, modest clothing that covered everything and revealed nothing. All the rest of them were fair game! I've talked with other addicts and they say the exact same thing. If you dress according to church standards, the man that is into pornography will ignore you. I am one of the fortunate few who have fully recovered from porn addiction. I'm not “in recovery;” I'm fully recovered. The stuff does not tempt me and I actually become sick at the thought of the filth. This is why I feel so strongly about modesty. If you or someone you know is addicted, get help. It will be the single most difficult thing you've ever had to fight and overcome, but it can be done. Dress modestly!
  11. 1 point
    Capitalist_Oinker

    Million Student March

    So I don't give Pam a headache I’ll not relate how I really feel about these whining brats, but the story does have some comic relief. Apparently the irony of demanding "free college" is lost on the associate professor who gets paid to teach at one. An intellectual giant, eh? http://www.ksl.com/?sid=37340016&nid=148
  12. 1 point
    Oh, Vort..... I wasn't saying that modesty has no part in the solution. I am stating that modesty does not equal the end of individuals who choose to view pornography and sexualize a woman or a man. This fact alone means EVERYTHING. This is the central part of this solution. If we viewed each other as children of God, rather than an object for lust and masturbation, then we would not have any intentions to sexualize each other. We would understand our purpose, the purpose of our fellow brothers and sisters, and their worth. So you must see these "porn stars" as women who choose to participate in this activity because they want people to view them in such a horrific way? Because they want their bodies splashed all over the internet? Are you aware that the majority of women in these pornographic movies and films are women who are trafficked into this business by their pimp? That these women are not willingly wanting to display their bodies for men to be gratified by them, but have been forced, beaten, tortured, and traded for money by a disgusting human being who views this woman as less than dirt? Are there women in this industry who, by their own means and will, volunteer to be apart of it? Yes. Many women do. And I do not view a one of them as someone who WANTS to be viewed as a sexual object. I view them as women who have been abused, degraded, and shamed their whole life into a job that they feel they are only capable of having. That because society views them as what you have stated above, that they feel they can never leave this industry due to the shame that would be placed upon them. I have met these women. I have listened to their stories and wept with them as they described the sexual abuse they experienced in their past by their own family members, the option of prostitution or living on the streets and hoping not to die. I do not blame them for their actions. I empathize with them. I hope to get rid of this horrible industry so that women do not have to resort to such measures just to stay alive. Most importantly, I hope this industry is destroyed for the sake of the young women who are trafficked into it. I blame the individuals (NOT just men) who buy and sell pornography that keeps it alive. It is actually not off-topic whatsoever. Pornography is rape for the women who have no desire to be apart of it but have no other option available to them. It is also an absurd correlation that filters in our culture when discussing the issues of modesty. So you may view it as off-topic, but I view as very central to the argument being stated. So we can differ on that. I'm not sure if we read the same posts or if we are viewing it differently, but this post was speaking about modesty's relationship to pornography. Which has everything to do with the sexualization of women in society, because those in pornographic films are almost always women. And I would completely disagree with what you would assume should be the central theme of this post. This should be about Modesty, and it's relationship to us and our own salvation, not dependent upon what gender you are. Modesty is a principle for every person. Not just women. I would refer you back to my statement about women's role in pornography. What you have just stated is what I believe is wrong with our culture, and I am sorry if that is offensive to you but I cannot stand what you have just stated. "Shame on them". We are always talking on this forum about being more Christ-like, and I can in no way see Christ saying this to any one of these women. He didn't say anything of the sort to the adulterer brought to him in the act of the sin, so why should we be allowed to say "shame on you for choosing to dress immodestly"? We should be teaching love and the teachings of Christ. So should we be teaching them about modesty? Sure, but I would not start with modesty. I would start with the teaching of their worth, most importantly their divine worth. That they are loved by a Father in Heaven. That they have a Savior who died for them and suffered anguish and pain so that they would not have to bear their burdens alone. Then after they have that foundation, the can understand the concept of modesty. No one in our society understands the concept of modesty because they have not been taught the former principles stated. And if they still choose to dress immodestly after such concepts have been taught, then that is between them and God. Not for us to say "shame on them". You can teach your children anything you want. That is between you, your children, and God. As soon as you say "shame on you" to the person who is dressing immodestly, then I believe that is a very different scenario. I'm not sure where in my post that I stated that the concept of modesty should not be taught. As LDS members we should understand the reason for modesty an the purpose of it. For those who have no concept of WHY dressing modestly is important, I do not hold them to such a standard. Society tells them that showing more leg and more of their boobs will get a man's attention. A man reinforces this by showing her attention (for the sole purpose of wanting sex). If a woman chooses to dress provocatively, then she chooses to dress provocatively. Any man who chooses to view her as less than a human being is the one at fault. I believe I already answered this.
  13. 1 point
    Vort

    Modesty Part 2 - Read "Modesty" first

    (1 of 2) When I read responses like the following, I despair. When even well-intentioned and honest people ignore the root of the problem and instead parrot the dishonest, agenda-driven axe-grinding of the feminists and other special-interest groups, I don't know that any hope is left. Of course it is not the entire solution. But of course it is an important part of the solution. And one of the very first steps to changing how we view each other is learning to be modest in dress, in action, and in thought. Yes, of course she is. So is the girl who molests her little brother. So is the girl who stabs her boyfriend to death because she thought he was looking at another girl. So is the girl who unleashes vile personal attacks on the new girl in class just for the pure joy of watching her suffer. All of these are daughters of God. So what? That fact alone means nothing. This is absurd. It is exactly like saying, "That professional MMA fighter does not deserve to be punched in the face just because he put on the gloves and entered the octagon." The wonan in porn is prostituting herself. She wants to be viewed as a "sexualized object". By what possible logic do you blame men for viewing her exactly as she wants to be viewed? The blame for the porn actress's whorish actions lie exactly on her. Blaming her customers is beyond ridiculous. You would never, ever accept such an argument if it went the other direction. No one in this conversation has said anything about rape. It was never even suggested. Why would you suddenly insert such a bizarre, seemingly off-topic rant? Do you also believe that bacon should be advertised as being "asbestos-free"? Just in case, you know, anyone was wondering.
  14. 1 point
    David13

    Gun free zone = killing spree zone

    Two important things to look at here that the extremely biased and prejudiced NPR would never reveal, is that almost all of the shootings and killings you are hearing about there in their "statistics" are not legally owned, registered guns. They are illegal guns, in use by people who are PROHIBITED by federal law from owning guns. So the truth that you miss here is that we citizens who CHOOSE to carry a gun can and should be able to do so to defend ourselves and our families from those PROHIBITED persons who have guns, because none of the governmental agencies here can nor will do that, not even by taking the guns away from those prohibiited persons. Lastly, in your first paragraph, you say that you would feel most safe in a place where NO GOOD GUYS have guns and ONLY THE BAD GUYS have guns. Does that not sound as perverse to you as it does to me? dc
  15. 1 point
    Doriette

    Terror attack in Paris

    It there's about 50 victims and 60 serious injuries. I do not understand the world ... Why Paris is a beautiful city. To find out if you have friends here in Paris the emergency number: 00033800406005. All international flights and departures are blocked. The borders are closed. Will have one curfew in Paris. All schools will be closed, ditto for universities.
  16. 1 point
    Crypto

    Million Student March

    Wow. Old crotchety people are really whiny. Especially about younger generations ;P
  17. 1 point
    zil

    Modesty

    NOTE: I am not by any means denying that we have a big problem of women dressing, speaking, and behaving immodestly. I am not denying that this is driven by various worldly factors. I am denying that this is strictly a problem of the way women dress, speak, and behave; and that it can be solved by addressing only that side of things. If you only teach the young men that the young women ought to dress modestly, you're teaching them that their reactions to what girls wear aren't their fault cuz the girls never shoulda been wearing that in the first place. The prevalence of a problem does not, in my opinion, seem relevant. It is possible for men to be immodest, and we should teach everyone that modesty is the standard for all of us, regardless of gender. Immodesty includes appearance, speech, and behavior. Immodesty includes watching that porn made for men. Immodesty includes the ogling of men and women. Immodesty includes the tight muscle shirt intended to attract / impress the girls (even if the girls' biological reaction isn't always as strong as the male biological reaction), as well as whatever skimpy outfit the girl is wearing. I object to addressing the issue one-sided because that's part of our problem. Even the dictionary (google's in this case) contributes to the wrong opinion that only women can be modest (and therefore immodest)... Their definition of modest: A man can't dress or behave so as to avoid (or encourage, if we reverse this) impropriety or indecency, especially to avoid (or encourage...) attracting sexual attention? They certainly can. Interestingly, "immodest" is defined as "lacking humility or decency." - men (and women) can certainly be guilty of that, as well as the reverse of modest, whatever the word is for that. As I mentioned previously, I would hope that long before we get anywhere near porn, we're teaching about the sacred nature of the human body, about the importance of all of us dressing, speaking, and behaving toward ourselves and others in a way appropriate to that sacredness (and that we're not teaching that modesty is just the way women dress).
  18. 1 point
    pam

    Million Student March

    I was watching an interview with the girl who is supposedly the leader in this whole march thing. I was laughing so hard at the end. She was a total dip.
  19. 1 point
    Irishcolleen

    Modesty

    One good thing about the LDS religion is that they emphasize modesty without pushing to the extreme of frumpiness. Most LDS women dress in a very classy manner from what I have seen. When a Baptist preacher teaches on modesty it seems guaranteed that many of the ladies will take to wearing denim jumpers and turtlenecks. Ugh!!! My girls frequent LDS owned clothing stores online because they are modest and pretty.
  20. 1 point
    Godless

    Million Student March

    I'm right there with you. I just turned 30 and I'm already finding myself constantly mad at the youth of today. Terms like "trigger warning" and "safe space" make me want to punch someone very hard in the face. Universities are a place to have your way of thinking challenged and to have meaningful intellectual discourse. These coddled brats need a heavy dose of reality, not more coddling. Universities need to stand by their faculty (where necessary) and make it clear that petty complaints won't put a professor's job in jeopardy. I'm not saying that some students don't have legitimate concerns (I have a hard time completely dismissing the Mizzou situation, for example), but I feel that we're giving too much power to the easily-offended. We'll be doing a great disservice to students if we don't adequately prepare them for the challenges of the real world, where they won't have the support of a student body to voice their grievances.
  21. 1 point
    NeuroTypical

    Million Student March

    Now, see, college is a place for dumbness like this. It's where little sheltered kiddos get their first taste of coming out from under their mamma's aprons, and get to do some things on their own. It's where they get their first taste of how utterly idiotic some of the crap they believe truly is. Because they say it out loud, and then get smacked upside the head with the tree of sarcastic smarter people who shame the idiocy out of (most of) them. I remember it in my college days. The drunk idiot standing in a pile of empty beer bottles failing to score with his lady interest about how interested in the environment he was. The angry students protesting the lack of parking, the lack of places to study at the library, the cost of tuition, the unfairness of blood for oil. The girl who took off her clothes and read poetry on the waterfall statue thing until she got arrested. The asinine letters to the editor. All of them, a rough stone rolling down the hill, getting the stupid knocked off of them and some smarts beaten into them through life experiences. Except in this case - where the idiots got mad enough that the university started firing the smart people for not catering to their bawling moronity with the proper sensitivity. With this post, I hereby begin my years as crotchety old man. We need another VietNam to thin out the ranks of these weenies. (No, I don't really mean that, but from what I hear, it's a crotchety old man thing to say, and I want to start strong, being only in my mid-40's).
  22. 1 point
    omegaseamaster75

    Modesty

    I don't have an issue with yoga pants, if you participate in yoga or similar activities body position is very important in doing the exercise correctly. Therefore it is necessary to wear clothing that shows where your body positions are at
  23. 1 point
    Traveler

    Judgmentalism

    With the example I gave in response #15 (the one just before yours) my pointing out the weakness of a young man not attending church resulted in a young man returning to activity and eventually a temple marriage. And yes I did feel good and more charity towards him - and still do.
  24. 1 point
    Traveler

    Judgmentalism

    I believe in making judgments - I believe it is impossible to employ any measure of agency and not make judgments. It seem to me the problem in making judgments is using them to categorize others when in reality our judgments are our standards. It seems to me that we are not really categorizing others but rather ourselves. For example when someone is sure someone else is dressed immodestly - they are actually saying something as much or more so about themselves than they are about others. In other words they are vocalizing the standards by which they want to be judged or others make judgments of them and understand when they are displaying their immodesty. I have posted in another thread about my personal covenant concerning Sabbath dress. I always wear a white shirt - this I do by personal covenant. I hold my covenants sacred. However, once while traveling for work I encountered a young man that was a return missionary that had become inactive (10 years since attending) with his personal covenants. As we conversed - he expressed a desire to "come" back. I invited him to attend Church with me on Sunday. It was a ward I had attended before - and always in my suit, white shirt and tie. But this young man told me he had nothing appropriate to wear to Church. I challenged this young man that his attendance at church at this point of his life was far more important that wearing something he knew to be appropriate. All he had was a tee shirt and levies - so I told him I would pick him up and I would wear a tee shirt and levies and that we would go together. Now someone seeing me at church that Sunday might think that I had dishonored my personal covenant - but the reality - at least as far as I am concerned, my covenant was untainted. But at the same time I did learn a very important lesson. Whenever I see someone at church wearing a tee shirt and levies - I make a great effort to make sure they feel welcome and know that I am so glad that they came to church. Sometimes those struggling with covenants are more in need of love and fellowship than criticism.
  25. 1 point
    BeccaKirstyn

    Judgmentalism

    I just don't really understand how acknowledging someone who is dressed immodestly is something worth even discussing. If it is someone in your ward, and you are not the mother, father, young women's/young men's leader, or bishop of that individual, then I do not believe it is within our judgment to say anything to the individual or even contemplate their lifestyle choices within ourselves. Can we contemplate the principle of modesty and how we are following it/not following it? Absolutely. But how is this individual's choice to dress immodestly pertinent to our salvation? It's not. What is pertinent to our salvation is to be loving and friendly to this individual. What is pertinent to the bishop's salvation, the mother and father's salvation, is to teach the correct principles to their son or daughter. What is pertinent to that individual's salvation is how they choose to follow that principle.