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But the reason we aren't ready, I think, isn't because we aren't willing to give our possessions to the church. I'd dare say that most faithful members, upon re-instigation of The United Order, would do so. The reason we aren't ready is because after doing so and then coming home with our modest home and our used car, we'd murmur and complain and criticize that Joe Neighbor next door came home with a slightly less modest house and a new car. And it's those who are clamoring for all things to be shared among the church who are the most likely, I think, to be the ones complaining when we aren't living their idea of how communal redistribution of wealth should work.

Also, http://www.ldsliving.com/How-Our-View-of-the-Word-of-Wisdom-Has-Changed-from-1833-to-Now/s/84774 and especially: https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6038&context=etd

For the Lord there is no such thing as a physical or temporal command or blessing... all things are spiritual. Sadly many of us only see the physical and not the spiritual sides of thing. In the Law of Consecration many will have to do things that are highly temporal to support themselves and others... Unless they can learn to see the spiritual in their efforts to meet the temporal needs they will fail to truly consecrate and miss the joy that is promised... Take the following example... a group of stone masons are hard at work... You ask few of them what they are doing.. and you get the following responses. "I'm cutting stone." "I'm earning money to support my family." "I'm helping build a temple of God." Each of them was doing exactly the same work yet they were clearly getting different spiritual experience. One day the Lord will command another "United Order" Until then all of those of us who are under covenant to live the Law of Consecration need to be working on changing our hearts, minds, thoughts (Or as President Nelson said in this last conference "Repent") on how we view and approach the labor God has given us to perform each and every day.

So I know that the law of consecration is something that is something that we covenant in the temple to keep along with the law of obedience and law of sacrifice... and I believe that in some ways they are kept... and yet I feel like as a whole we are still so far from living the full law. I have recently read Approaching Zion by Hugh Nibley and he very clearly describes how we should be living if we want to be creating a zion-like society in the present. Basically we are all in one degree or another keeping one foot in Babylon (the world) and one in Zion. It is very difficult for us to literally give up all that we have and follow Christ. Give up all that we have and give it to the poor. D&C 49 19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance. 20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin. At what point do we as members of the church, of our own free will, go to the bishop and say "I want to give the the Lord (through the church) everything I have with the promise that my needs will be met."? From what I understand, either we choose willingly to live this law to the fullest or D&C 105: 5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself. 6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer. I would prefer to not suffer if possible through my own faithfulness and preparation. Besides, the blessings from it can't be measured. I would love it if making money to make a living wasn't such a daily focus. I would love to still work hard for my needs but be able to stimulate my mind with the remaining time. Gaining knowledge (of eternal truths) is what saves us and helps us become like God.

IIRC it was finally made a universal precondition to temple admittance by the Grant administration in the 1920s or 1930s. But it had been enforced intermittently before then. It was, I believe, one of the grounds for David Whitmer’s excommunication back in 1838; and I think it was emphasized pretty hard during the “reformation” of 1856.

One aspect of history I have shared and find interesting is that after a year a so the Lord sought to teach his children this law, and to put this law into practice. That we would literally become like the city of Enoch -- A Zion society. This failed, sadly. It was too much and this concept appears too much still today. I have wondered why the Lord hasn't instructed us to now live it once again, and it doesn't take long to understand why he hasn't -- we still aren't ready. There are individuals, and people, who are seeking to live this law. A story that inspired me was when a member of our ward really struggled with financial difficulties. He was a trade worker and found himself in the position of being let go (not because of work ethic) but due to the type of work he did. They had one car and this car finally kicked the bucket and they were in no position to financially purchase a new car. I would see him, his wife, and children walking to destinations and if farther taking the bus. One day a car showed up in their driveway with a ribbon around it. His family and I think some friends all pitched in a certain amount of money and purchased him a car. This is an aspect of Zion mentality. This also happened to a young lady in our ward. She graduated from high school, and was going to be attending college away from home. In order to assist, friends from high school talked to their parents, and one week they showed up at her house with a used car for college. It was wonderful. There are aspects of what it means to be a Zion people, but we are still far below the measure of what it means to be Zion people. Yes, the Book of Mormon is very clear, but might I add that it isn't the wearing of costly apparel and some other aspects that the Book of Mormon is highlighting (so to speak). You will notice that these people who began to wear costly apparel would look down on their brethren. Sadly we see this in our society also (ever so prevalent among our youth -- high school and middle school). This is something that has been consistently shared in trainings from our general authorities. The Lord isn't waiting for the world to become more wicked to come. He is waiting for us to become a Zion people who are ready to receive him. Note, I didn't quote that correctly. I have the exact quote in my notes from the trainings we received. EDIT: There is another story I have found to be inspiring. This was from a lady in our ward (one I have moved from) whose family consistently struggled financially, partially due to having two children with special needs, which obviously increased hospital bills. One day she shared she was walking through DI and saw a dresser and thought how she would love that dresser, but knew they did not have the money for that dresser. One day, out of nowhere, her relief society president stopped by and just said I have been impressed to take you out today. They went out, and one of their stops was the DI. The relief society president had some other items that she needed to stop by DI for. As they were walking through the store they walked through the isle that this dresser was in. The relief society president stopped at the dresser and said something to this nature. I have a feeling now you need this dresser, and this is the dresser you want. I am going to purchase it for you. Heavenly Father answered a silent prayer she never shared with anyone, through the faithful love of another member. So tiny aspects of Zion I think are happening more than we recognize, but not on the scale it would require to be a people ready for Zion.

@LineUponLine When it comes to riches I learned more from the home I was raised in. My father who was very wealthy never bought a new car and usually was seen in public wearing overalls. I listened as many came to my father for advice. So I will quote my father - he said that he could teach anyone to be wealthy in 5 minutes - it was easy. In fact he said that the principles of wealth are more certain than the principles of poverty. He would say that the first principle of wealth is love and service. He taught that if we love others we will labor in service and we will love doing things that benefit and teach others and we will do it longer, harder and with joy than those that do no love and commit to service. He would say that we should be willing not just to work hard but to love and enjoy doing it. He would say it is not natural to love to work - one must learn and cultivate a love of work and service. Like the principles of truth in the gospel we must first learn to be an example and able to show others before we can teach anything. In essence, true poverty is not being short of money but short of work and service to do. By the same token true wealth is not the possession of money but facing each day determined to do more that what time will allow. I will say it again - no one is helped by giving them money. No one!!! The greatest wealth that can be given is the knowledge that a person is and the opportunity for themself to be the greatest asset and that their contribution is the greatest single factor in their honor, agency, worth, liberty and success. The first principle of wealth is not work or even hard work but the love and shere joy of hard work. The second principle of wealth is easier than the first and requires no effort whatsoever. It is to spend less than you earn. My father would tell people there is no happiness in debt. There is no joy or satisfaction in debt and regardless of what you or anyone else does - you will not find joy or happiness being in debt. And regardless of how hard you work or what you receive as gifts or service from others - debt will destroy any possibility of joy and happiness. As long as someone is in debt they will be poor - even if they live in a mansion. Debt will also destroy one's love and passion for work and will always create jealousy and envy (even hate) of others. There are few things more evil and cruel than willingly accepting debt. The Traveler

When you get rich (or if you already are), then what's stopping you from buying your poor neighbor a boat? Just out of curiosity, does your idea of "poor" equate to not owning mansions, boats, and toys? Is your plan that everyone has mansions, boats, and toys, or no one does? It's easy to sit in judgement of our fellow man, isn't it? Now before you get huffy at that, please note that I'm including myself. My nephew married the daughter of a wealthy man. I mean hundreds of millions wealthy. They have ridiculous houses with fancy pools and bowling alleys and full sized indoor basketball courts and showers with 32 shower heads raining down from every angle, boats, toys, etc., etc. And I do, very naturally, find myself critical of them. The best I can do in response, and the ONLY thing I should do in response is to be the kind of man that I feel I should be. So if I get rich, what will I do with my money? That is the only consideration, really. No way. Not when it's filled with people who are overly concerned and critical of their neighbor because he has a boat. You've heard the saying about giving a man a fish, right? The experience the church had with The United Order proves this false. The United Order failed because these things were not "past". Being one is not about merely sharing temporal goods. The one in spirit has to come first or the temporal equality will fail. Some of "we" aren't. Are you certain that none of "we" are. And who is "we" anyhow? Why don't you worry about yourself and leave God's judgment of who and who isn't "ready" for any given thing to God.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/166211/worldwide-median-household-income-000.aspx But we are a worldwide church not just the USA. So we should be listing worldwide income. Which is under 10K per household. According to this data, ever American (even those who live off the dole) are filthy rich. If I were to convince one of my associates to declare me disabled (which I could easily do). I would qualify for SSDI of $2491 a month! That would be more than double the worldwide household income. Then I could quit my orthopaedic practice, abandon my patients and spend all my time and effort on social, emotional, and spiritual enlightenment. I see the light!

I hear you brother. It's always easier to focus on someone else's sins than our own. So much easier to point a finger at them, rather than us. You've mentioned that the whole "thou shalt eat bread by the sweat of thy brow" stuff takes up time you would prefer to dedicate to spiritual/enlightening things. There are lots of suggestions for that, but if I may, I'd like to suggest something else. Whenever you find yourself being bothered by how other people do things, maybe stop doing that, and instead dedicate that time to spiritual/enlightening things.

I think there are a couple of issues here. —First, you quite missed my point. A critical means of blessing the whole human race, is by bringing more of those humans to earth. If, as many self-proclaimed would-be consecrationists would have me believe, the Church has no right to tell me what an appropriate family size is; how can they nevertheless demand that the Church presume to tell me what an appropriate definition of fiscal “surplus” is? —Second, vis a vis the Joseph Smith quote—you seem to assume that a person not living the United Order outside her own family sphere, is not finding ways of blessing people outside her own immediate family. What, I wonder, do you make of the fact that Joseph Smith lived in one of the the most opulent homes in Nauvoo? —And third, as a general proposition you seem to conflate “loving” or “blessing”, with “giving lots of free stuff to”.

I honestly don't know why it hasn't been commanded again; although, I would think there are two potential reasons: 1) There are people/members who will complain because they see what it means to no longer have rich or poor to be different. (as you stated) 2) There are people/members who have more who will also complain because they forget the idea where their blessings come from. I hear all to often in our world, "I am where I am because I work hard." (which assumes all other people who aren't where I am is because they don't work hard) They will have a hard time giving up their income because they are forgetting by whose hand their blessing comes. I also think we have to remember the teaching of "slothful and unwise servants" who wait to be commanded in all things. Sure, I have no problem living the law of consecration or living within the United Order. But, what am I doing now that shows I am living it already? In part, our fast offerings highlight to some degree our love for this law and lifestyle. Let me explain from my perspective, if I were rich I would be seeking out myself family members and ward members who were in need. I wouldn't wait for the united order to bless my neighbor. I would be the Lord's instrument in helping out more often than not. I am not talking about one instance in one year. I am talking about helping in relation to my income. Notice how the Lord has said that we seek for riches we seek them to cloth the naked, feed the poor, etc... But how many of our brothers who have an abundance of wealth are actually seeking out those in need? So, yes, we a good majority of members will move when commanded. What I am inquiring, are our faithful members willing to act without the command? That is more a show of our actual desires and heart. I am cautious to think that the reason we haven't is only one sided -- the poor (sorry, if I am misreading your last statement as this is what I am reading) who desire more. When the poor realize they aren't privy to someone else's wealth (as Zion can not be accomplished by compulsory means -- my honest opinion -- and should not be) so they work and labor for what they receive (self-reliance), and the rich remember by whom their blessings come remembering that it isn't there money in the first place. Then we will see Zion began to flourish.

Perhaps I am missing something but I have never seen and scripture or heard any prophet suggest that there is any obligation or suggestion that a Saint of G-d pay off someone else's financial debt. We can forgive those in debt to us (which I have done) but I am am concerned that many "poor" expect to accumulate debt with the intent that someone else will pay it off. I believe it is the plan of G-d that we all become invested in "overcoming". I sometimes think there is a miscarriage of that debt resolution is free. It appears to me that G-d does not intend to pay off debts that we are not willing to strive in some way or effort ourselves. It is also my understanding that one cannot live the law of consecration or even the United Order if they are in debt. The Traveler

Oh, and let me share a little bit of Zion that happened in my life. Many years ago, I was going through some difficult times financially. My wife and I have always had a garden. This year I fell on hard times, and wasn't going to be able to have a garden. My backyard neighbor and good friend (who we compete at times with our garden in jest), came over and said, "Anddenex, I am going to purchase some plants and this year I am purchasing your plants also. He didn't know I wasn't going to have a garden, but knew of the financial circumstance I found myself in. Due to love from a neighbor I was able to have a garden that year and that year I have not been able to duplicate how good of a crop we had. I am not sure if it was simply from my friends love, but I can't duplicate the same crop. We had over 50 cantalope that year, over 30 watermelon, over 800 tomatoes, and many other good things from the garden. So, again, we see aspects of Zion, a Zion mentality, more than we might think.

Remember: the Law of Consecration refers to MUCH more than just giving money. Heart, mind, and effort are actually a lot harder to give.

I guess our opinions are informed by our circumstances to an extent. I've lived in the same house for almost 20 year now, and watched as my old ward boundaries have become like 4-5 new ward boundaries and another stake. I've watched two new buildings be built, and seen the happy faces of folks who no longer have to drive 30 minutes to church. In my neck of the woods, we see Pres. Nelson's actions as reacting to the Lord's growing church rolling across the world, and the need to prepare against future hard times as we struggle to maintain our religious liberty. I live in Colorado Springs, which is growing populationwise, but that growth doesn't account for all the increases in membership in this area.

Just an aside here, but no it wasn't. It was $55.6k. In 2017 it was $59k. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

I'm not expecting something like the United Order but clearly there is a vast separation between the rich and the poor even among church members. When I see very wealthy members and their mansions, boats, toys, etc... and then see others who are in severe debt or have literally nothing... it makes me wonder when the law of consecration will be lived to the fullest to the point where there will be no more poor among us (at least in the church). I don't expect the poor to be idle and live off the wealthy, everyone needs to be a productive member of society, but I do think that the Lord blesses people with wealth to see how they will use it for the benefit of others. I don't feel like the resources that are available are being used to create the Zion like society. The average household income in the U.S. as of 2014 was $73,298. If that average was applied to everyone, that would be plenty for any household to afford all needs and even plenty of wants. Obviously appropriate use of the funds needs to be used wisely... even a multimillionaire can go into debt from greed. Once all basic needs are met of food, raiment, shelter, etc... then a society working towards living celestial law becomes incredibly productive and intelligent. Way too much time and effort is being spent by the poor trying to make ends meet when the wealthy could quickly close those gaps. Additionally, when everyone is equal in all things, all of a sudden comparisons and competition are a thing of the past. This then lowers anxiety, depression, and other issues. Obviously this is not going to be fully realistic until the millenium, however we are supposed to be preparing ourselves to receive Christ at the second coming. We are not ready in our current materialistic mindset to receive him and live the celestial law that he would expect from the kingdom of god on earth.

Seen on Facebook:

When did the Word of Wisdom become more than "not by commandment or constraint"? @Just_A_Guy @JohnsonJones @Suzie and of course anyone else who has something to offer.

Hi all, I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I love studying the gospel but find that I don't have the group of peers/acquaintances that I would like for some good stimulating conversations on doctrines and current events in relation to prophecy. I hope to both provide and receive some of that here. I have never been part of a forum but I need an outlet for my thoughts. My favorite topics are: The second coming (and current events related to it) The characteristics of God and becoming like him (to the full extent) What needs to happen for some serious progression towards a Zion-like society (just recently finished reading Approaching Zion by Hugh Nibley)... law of consecration anyone?

I can see how I made it look one sided. What I meant to say is that those who are greedy, worldly, judgmental, what-have-you, etc. -- rich or poor -- are going to be a problem in or out of The United Order. But what you typically see is people without money complaining about how those with money should share more. So my point was simply that if anyone is doing such a thing, they're part of the problem. Anyone who's looking around at the members and judging whether their neighbor is being generous enough and claiming that's why we're not in a Zion state yet needs a bit more introspective consideration on the matter. The claim that we're not in a Zion state yet is practically too obvious to state. The question of how we move towards a Zion state has been answered ad nauseum by the scriptures, the prophets, lesson manuals, articles, etc. We study our scriptures. We have family study times. We do ministering. We serve in our callings and elsewhere. We go to the temple. Honestly if I were going to look and judge, I'd say a much larger indication of where we are can be seen in how many people tend to show up to help neighbors move in/out or something. In my last ward, for example, we had pretty good service turnout. But on a good day we'd get...maybe 10 show up to help for a move. It seems to me that short of literal "can't" that when there's such an opportunity, the whole ward ought to be turning out. But it never does. That being said, this thread has caused me to do some self-evaluation. My willingness to serve, etc., has taken somewhat of a nose dive in the past few years. I need to adjust.

Others have tried to explain it, I guess I'll try again. Please understand JJ: - Solar panels do not generate electricity in the dark. - Any place you go on earth, it's dark like half the time. Because the sun goes down. It's called nighttime. - No really, solar panels don't generate electricity at nighttime. If you believe otherwise, please post a link. I'd like to hear about it. But yeah, even with "current solar technology", I'm thinking you still need the sun not behind the earth to power a solar panel. - So no really, when you start with 100% of a year, and it's dark at nighttime, and nighttime is about half of a day, the absolute maximum for that year would be around 50%. (Yes, at some latitudes in some seasons, days are longer. But then the seasons change, and nights get longer.) Here's a random graph from a random weather station in a random location in Colorado. You can tell when night is happening, and when day is happening. We see the valleys during a day, indicating the sun is behind clouds. We see the day in the middle where pretty much the whole day is overcast. I think JohnsonJones is saying that solar tech is getting better at capturing/generating electricity even during overcast conditions. Not sure how good it's getting, but I'm glad to hear it. JJ, I get what you're saying about generation vs providing. I also keep hearing exciting things about next generation batteries finally breaking some limits that physics places on current technology. Happy to hear that too - I want my dang StarTrek phaser, and you just can't do that with a bunch of AAA Duracells.

I'd just like to repeat my suggestion that you turn this into self-reflection, rather than trying to mold others into your image. What steps do you need to take? Are you ready? If not, what changes do you need to make? What progress are you making?

I'm about to be off for the summer, so don't have a ton of time to type right now, but that does in a nutshell explanation.

@jdf135, from how I understand your question, I think what you're missing is the "Thy will be done." part of blessings. It is never what we will, but what God wills for us. Therefore, we can ask and ask and ask but Matthew 21:22 will never be fulfilled unless what we ask for aligns with the will of the Father and that we put our faith and believe in it. If it is God's will, then blessing will pour from the heavens when we exercise our faith. So Elder Redlund's talk basically sets up the foundation by which we align our will to the Father's.

This is true. I don't believe we are ready and I know there are a lot of obstacles (pride being among the top) before we are. I love hearing the examples that @Anddenex was giving and I wish those things could be more commonplace. When I define helping the poor it is based on need starting with food, clothing, and shelter and only expanding on that after those primary needs are met. When a debt is payed off through the assistance of someone who has the funds to do so it is expected that the one who was in debt is still working as a productive individual and isn't out looking for the next thing to get him back in debt. Someone who is living celestial law is self-reliant. I think a better question I need to ask is: What steps need to be taken presently in order for further progress to be in made in creating a zion today. If we are clearly not ready (and i'm talking about large scale because I'm sure there are some who are in fact ready) then what changes need to be made? What progress actually is being made that maybe i'm not seeing?

Thanks Anatess that certainly looks like it! Cheers!

Pooh. Defining and then helping the poor, isn’t nearly as fun as the adrenaline rush of phony virtue that comes from hurting the rich.

I think this that A) this has much broader meaning than you're supposing and B) you're defining "poor" all over the map. Which is it? Everyone's mortgage paid off? Or no homeless? And how much "homelessness" is within the direct church membership -- particularly where said individual goes to one's bishop in times of need? Seriously...where do you draw this line of what is "poor"? If we need to eliminate poor among the Saints then we need to understand where the line of being "poor" is, right? Is it about having needs met...or desires? If it's needs then we may be a lot closer than you're suggesting. If it's desires...then what desires count? TVs? Cellphones? Cars? Boats? A certain home size? Dishwashers? Microwaves? Define "poor".

Rand was an atheist pistol, and her disciples were a melodramatic soap opera. But dang, when she was right about something, she was right. A is A. No matter how many people try to explain how it isn't.

I've read parts of it, and plenty of his other essays and works. The guy certainly seemed unimpeachable when it came to talking about how to run personal finances. I remember also what he had to say about zeal and knowledge. They were both basically useless unless you had them both. Human history is full of instances where people tried to redistribute wealth in order to solve poverty. Since you're full of zeal to urge we give it another go, it would behoove you to fill yourself with knowledge of how those efforts all turned out. And also gain some knowledge about what US efforts to currently do such things, and how they're working. Have you ever volunteered a soup kitchen or food pantry? Good experience. Even better if you help out not just preparing food, but helping with the administration of the place. See what happens behind the scenes. Hear from the people who deal with poverty day in and day out, to learn what works and what doesn't. Perhaps others can suggest some books to read on economic programs like the New Deal or Carter's 90% tax rates.

Ever Read Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged?

And of course YouTube has it...

Ohhh... we Filipinos get British TV! My favorite was CI5 and that's how I grew up with 3 dogs named Bodie, Doyle, and Cowley. The TV series you're talking about sounds like The Changes. It was about a girl named Nicki who tried to figure out why humans "killed" all the machines.

All I am saying is what the Lord said D&C 49:20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin. A key part of the definition of Zion is that they are all equal and there is no poor among them. Can no one clarify this to me? I'm not saying hardwork is worthless and nothing is gained from it and I'm not saying the poor should be given boats and mansions. But imagine if the surplus wealth could pay off most if not all debt including mortgage debt. Imagine if the homeless never went hungry and were always clothed and were given the help they need to get on their feet to get a job and provide for themselves. Ever notice in the Book of Mormon that problems always started with riches? The wearing of costly apparel, class distinctions, etc. Has anyone read Hugh Nibley's book Approaching Zion?

The last time someone raped me and then left a baby on my doorstep I felt perfectly justified smothering it with a pillow.

@LineUponLine I would point out that the United Order is not the Law of Consecration but was intended to help teach the law. There are two parts to the Law of Consecration. One is that we give of our surplus. The other is that we are given according to our needs and abilities. My understanding is that money is not given to the poor but that the poor are provided assistance. The operative word is assistance. It is also the Law of Heaven that those that refuse to labor are not to eat the same as the laborer. Industry is the central part of the Law of Consecration. That we work and labor for the kingdom of G-d. There are times of great need that the Saints of G-d are called upon to assist those in need but it has never been the intent of G-d to create Zion as a welfare state or a socialism as a governing economic system. It has always been the intent that in Zion all shall labor for the benefit of Zion and that idleness is to be done away with. And so each family is to be established upon principles of industry and labor. What is needed to maximise and enhance our industry should be invested from the increases we receive from our labor and our surplus donated to helping the poor. Currently we give our surplus according to our covenant of the Law of Consecration in the form of "Fast Offerings". In addition we can also provide for the humanitarian fund, the missionary fund and the the perpetual education fund. There is one last point in living the law of consecration - that is that we meet once a year with our bishop and review our tithing and donations to various funds. At that time we are to console wit the bishop for various needs and where we should donate our surplus for the next year and then covenant with the L-rd to so invest our surplus. I submit that there are among us Saints currently living the covenant and Law of Consecration. The Traveler

Don't be a snitch but don't be bullied by this other person either. start looking for and get another job before you quit.

I'm a big model train guy and one of my best friends lives in the UK. He wasn't at this show but we both heard about tis on a model train oriented website. Truly senseless.

You seem to be taking a very hard stance on this topic, what about victims of rape or incest? What if the life of the mother is in danger? Would you ball these people up in your list of murderers and murderesses? 1 in 4 seems rather high and as pointed out in prior posts takes into account stillborns, non elective abortions etc.

The purpose of this church is to prepare a people for the return of Jesus for his reign of 1,000 years to finish all that is necessary to complete the plan of salvation of man. Many think in terms of destroying the wicked but that is just a secondary consequence. The primary purpose is to establish a society of Saints of G-d that are necessary both for his return and the completion (restoration) of all things. The greatest need or accomplishment of the Saints are families. Families that are centered around and dedicated to the divine union of a man and a woman in marriage. Although there is much needed to be done in the temples - the foundation of preparations and the greater work will be done in the homes of the Saints. I believe that the referbations of the temple are a type and shadow of what needs to be done in the home. That our homes need to be physically clean and beautiful as well as spiritually pure and peaceful. I am concerned that children are not being taught to keep homes (personal space) physically clean and beautiful and spiritually pure and peaceful. The Traveler

Sorry I took so long to get back to your question mnn2501. I've had AP exams for the past few weeks. 😅 It was Sooooo much better than I imagined it would be. My bishop was new and I didn't know him very well so I was very very nervous but he acted so kind and considerate I don't know what I was expecting because I should know that bishop's roles are to be like that. He spent a long time getting to know me before I told him anything which really helped my nerves and he even expressed to me his own "overwellmness" by all of the many bishops tasks and laughed about it. He made me feel safe and comfortable and was very understanding when talking me through things. I felt the peace I wanted after it was over and I know I did the right thing. Having this experience has really strengthened my testimony on the leaders of the church. It honestly was my first interaction with confessing to the bishop and I was going in relying on the extreme stories told to me by others and overthought the entire thing. Thank you for all reassuring me. I will definitely know better next time to just trust and talk to my bishop.

I didn't express myself well. What people decide in their marriage is their business. I don't agree necessarily that divorce is the answer if one of the spouses leave the church (and that's the only thing that changed), but it's not my business and I'm not privy to the privacy of the marriage or of the Lord's inspiration. So, one couple's choice to separate and another to stay isn't disturbing to me. What disturbed me was how they expressed it to me. Saying to me that they would divorce in response to me sharing such personal, painful information disturbs me. To me, it just isn't proper to express that thought as a response. Something more along the lines of, "I'm so sorry to hear that. That must be very difficult. Wow, I'm not sure how I would respond in your place."--any of those are appropriate. It just upsets me to hear people say that in response. I don't hold it against them. Most of the time, people just don't know what to say in these situations, so unfortunately, they don't think about how it will sound or be taken.

Folks, I have to just put my mod hat on for a minute and gently note that MormonHub cannot vouch for the authenticity of this poster or her story; and we typically look askance at threads that turn into open fundraising. Anyone who wishes to provide material assistance to the OP (or any other forum member) does so at their own risk.

Anyone else a Dune fan? (If you're not, it's a sci-fi series of books created by Frank Herbert, and expanded by his son Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson. Fremen are the sand-dwelling folk, who live in seitches, and if you don't care, you can probably stop reading.) Anyway, I've been jumping so thoroughly into the fandom, that I am at risk of becoming known as "that one poster who can't shut up about Dune". I know I'm not alone, so here's a thread for us. Agree or disagree, argue or contribute, feel free to participate. Expect lots of good-natured back-and-forthery, and lots of brilliantly zingy jabs at other groups. I've been enthralled by the Dune universe since I read the first 3 books in elementary school so I could keep up with my smug buddy who thought he was a better reader. Frank Herbert had definite opinions about what drives humans, planets, religion, and politics, and from where I'm standing, a full 66.67% of them are in harmony with the gospel. And the rest are worth thinking about, in order to be able to clearly articulate why I disagree. As I binge-read my big stack of Dune books in preparation for the new movie coming in 2020, I'm being reminded of how much of an impact those books had on me. Plus, being a Dune fan keeps me on that "I'm cooler than you because I like something less popular" pedestal which I value so deeply. I'm firmly convinced in the lost 116 pages of the BoM, it has a broader "tree of life" vision, in which the iron-rod holders look one way and see the great and spacious building, and look the other way and see me standing there on my smug pedestal, not deigning to notice you people. Anyway, to kick the thread off proper:

Oh come on now. Does it really "hurt" them to take away 9 of their 10 solid gold cars? No one really needs more than one solid gold car.

Yes, has nothing to do with what @LineUponLine is presenting and inquiring about - Zion. Unless, of course you feel building Zion is what Ayn was suggesting? If so, we may have read two different copies then.

This was me a few years back.

My husband and I were married in the temple. He comes from pioneer stock. After 2 years of marriage, he announced his intention to leave the church. That came completely out of the blue for me. Absolutely nothing to indicate he was leaning towards this. When he left, I struggled with it and frankly, didn't handle it well. He was completely anti and the vitriol he had for the church (and church members) was so shocking to me (his outspoken contempt has lessened now). I still don't know why he left (although I have a very strong suspicion of what it was--absolutely nothing to do with a member or members at all). Based on this experience, I can say that the ward members who reached out to him did so with friendship, not with any intent of reactivating or converting. In fact, a couple of members that we hung out with commented that when he left the church, he left them as well. One thing that I can say that disturbs me from church members is how many (friends and acquaintances) said to me that they would divorce their spouse if they left the church. First, you honestly don't know what you would do unless you are in that situation (trust me, before I married I would have been the same to say such--in fact, I would never have dated my husband had I any inkling he would leave the church), but that truly isn't helpful to say that. Say it to yourself or someone else, but not in my hearing. I don't need to justify to you my decision to stay married so even saying, "Wow, I could never stay married. I'd divorce him/her in a heartbeat." suggests that my decision is wrong. Second, I am grieving! and you suggest to me that I should divorce him (and yes, I had people do more than just say they couldn't stay married--they flat out asked me if I'm getting a divorce)? If I had asked someone if I should divorce is one thing, but I never brought that subject up (thought about it of course, but never asked anyone since that was my decision alone). Offering such a "solution" to my issue is extreme to say it nicely. You can express sympathy better than that, surely. So, in my limited experience, it was the leaver who severed relationships, not church members.