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It's comprehensible because the church was small, but when you re present in hundreds of nations, its not pretty good to let all those people be represented by persons from only one nation. You have it backward. The apostles do not represent the peoples of the earth to God, the First Presidency, or the Quorum of Twelve. The apostles represent God to the peoples of the earth.

Reminds me of another story. A friend of mine, Bishop in Sacramento, went to a leadership meeting with President Eyring. Wherein Eyring asked them to share with him issues that keep them up at night as Bishops or Stake Presidents. Then one bright Bishop asked Eyring what kept him up at night. His answer - Africa kinda humbling.

She was excommunicated. I read the letter about her book labelling it as spurious. If I can find it I'll post it. She claims special knowledge that has been revealed to her for the church...oh wait, I thought the prophet had that calling.... Her earthquake prophecy failed to happen at her predicated time. It is now several years overdue.

@TheRedHen at this link you will find a document of all the problems with Julie Rowe. Well, maybe not all of them but a great number of them She is a false prophetess. https://www.docdroid.net/nnbt/a-greater-tomorrow.docx

I know the church has issued statements before saying that she does not speak for the church, and her opinions are her own. I have not looked into her writings in depth, but since she has been excommunicated from the church I highly doubt they hold much weight. Perhaps they do, and she was possibly excommunicated for other reasons. Regardless, I steer clear of any kind of doctrinal or philosophical teachings outside of the scriptures and the latter-day prophets.

It still boggles my mind that people think Nation and think skin color. Like... Mexico is people of color... uhm... Mexico was occupied by white people for a few centuries that the DNA of a Mexican you meet on the street of Mexico is more than likely 60% white even if they don't look white. So, Barack Obama had a lily white mother, but yeah... Obama is a black man. In any case, skin color does not represent a Nation.

I love Dune and enjoyed Dune Messiah and Children of Dune (I still want my own personal crysknife just so I can say cool things about it needing to taste blood to be sheathed😃). I am fascinated by the idea of a society having hyper advanced technology, but an archaic fedual governing system. Herbert does a great job of creating a fascinating universe, and it's one of my all time favorite Sci-fi settings. However, I stopped enjoying the series at God Emperor of Dune. That book, for me, was a long frustrating slog through Herbert's philosophy and became less about the characters and more about his random musings on human nature. I tried to read Sisterhood of Dune, and I will get to it, I'm just worried about it being more of the same so I haven't mustered up the courage to try my hand at the series again. Maybe that's why (a bit of Dune heresy coming beware) I actually love the prequel series created by his son. He gives me more of the conflicts between the great houses and the weird feudal, advanced but technophobic society that always attracted me to Dune in the first place. Anyways, I thought I'd chime in, given that I don't run into to many Dune fans on a regular basis. Remember, fear is the mindkiller.

I liked the original Dune, which I have read twice and loved both times. I also like the David Lynch movie - though you have to accept that it is NOT a totally faithful retelling of the original novel. (I have never seen the miniseries - though I want to.) I have read Dune Messiah and Children of Dune only once, and didn't like them so much. I think my problem is that I didn't much care who won in the end. If it's a choice between the Atreides (who at least brand themselves as being the good guys) and the horrible Harkonnens and their disgusting Baron, its easy to know what side to root for. In the second two books the Atreides are almost as bad as anyone else. Children of Dune does pick up towards the end: I have some sympathy for Leto and Ghanima (they are only kids after all) and I liked the way the prince (forgotten his name) put his horrible mother in her place once he discovered what she was up to. Having said that I suppose the stories do teach us something about real life: how things are never black-and-white and that politics is a dirty back-stabbing business most of the time - and that the best of our historical heroes - Nelson (Horatio, not Russell M), Washington, Wellington - likely used nasty methods at times. I have yet to read God Emperor of Dune - so I averted my eyes to your second post, MrShorty - but I'll probably give it a try sometime if I happen to find it in a charity shop!

“How would you have us defend controversial church moral stances and policies when we are confronted with friends and neighbors who allege that the Church has already admitted its error with the priesthood ban and that its current moral teachings are merely additional erroneous policies that haven’t been corrected yet?” ”Given the recent instructional changes in the temple, is there still a presumption that priesthood “presides” in the home? If so, can we get some concrete examples of what “presiding” means, as opposed to the traditional discussion on what “presiding” does not mean?”

Anyone else a Dune fan? (If you're not, it's a sci-fi series of books created by Frank Herbert, and expanded by his son Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson. Fremen are the sand-dwelling folk, who live in seitches, and if you don't care, you can probably stop reading.) Anyway, I've been jumping so thoroughly into the fandom, that I am at risk of becoming known as "that one poster who can't shut up about Dune". I know I'm not alone, so here's a thread for us. Agree or disagree, argue or contribute, feel free to participate. Expect lots of good-natured back-and-forthery, and lots of brilliantly zingy jabs at other groups. I've been enthralled by the Dune universe since I read the first 3 books in elementary school so I could keep up with my smug buddy who thought he was a better reader. Frank Herbert had definite opinions about what drives humans, planets, religion, and politics, and from where I'm standing, a full 66.67% of them are in harmony with the gospel. And the rest are worth thinking about, in order to be able to clearly articulate why I disagree. As I binge-read my big stack of Dune books in preparation for the new movie coming in 2020, I'm being reminded of how much of an impact those books had on me. Plus, being a Dune fan keeps me on that "I'm cooler than you because I like something less popular" pedestal which I value so deeply. I'm firmly convinced in the lost 116 pages of the BoM, it has a broader "tree of life" vision, in which the iron-rod holders look one way and see the great and spacious building, and look the other way and see me standing there on my smug pedestal, not deigning to notice you people. Anyway, to kick the thread off proper:

My wife and I used to use a lot of pre-workout and/or weight-loss supplements. that we later discovered had green tea. One of them even had "coffee extract". That's something to watch out for in those things as it's quite common.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/statement-word-of-wisdom-august-2019 Looks like the Cappuccino machine will languish on my Amazon wish list. I don’t see any commentary on alcohol /gasp The kids just chunked the Green Goodness almost full bottle into the trash. And hey I’m a competent physician. CBD oil anyone?

So, Brian David Mitchell has to change the way he prefers to “love” because he’s a freak of nature, but Ed Smart doesn’t have to change the way he prefers to love because God doesn’t make mistakes. Bigot.

I think the only reasons Duncan was so valuable that they kept bringing him back, was his unparalleled loyalty to the Atreides, and he was really good at his job. Herbert was expounding on principles through his books, and I think his main point is loyalty and dedication are of timeless use, not easy to come by. [More spoilers Jamie!!!] Indeed. The whole Herbert universe was one big exploration of human nature. To Herbert, "us good/them bad" is often little more than a genetic survival urge built in to our DNA to help propagate the species. It's important to note (and quite hard to find in the book), that Leto II's justification for all the horrible things he did, was it was the only way for the human race to not go completely extinct in the next few thousand years. His Golden Path would ensure humanity's continued survival - and if you were going to question the nobility of that, well, the whole human race was your enemy, not Leto II.

One good question that day was about repetitive repentance on the same sin. He related that he hated the old teaching with the 5 step check-list of repentance: recognize, sorrow, forsake, confess, restitution. His main point was that the greatest part to repentance is turning (or returning) to God with real intent. He also dislikes modern metaphors like how repentance can pry a nail out of a board, putty over the defect, sand it off and refinish it so you cant see the flaw. He stated that the atonement doesn’t clean, it transforms.

Thank you so much for the pointers and links. I'll definitely look in to these. I was first introduced (or maybe exposed to is the right phrase) to the Church by my friend, who I think very much falls into your "There are members of the Church who are very knowledgeable, spiritual, and are a good example of what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ" category. He only told me about things when I asked, and I instigated everything, so I was not pressured at all (unless that was indeed his elaborate plan!) I am loving learning everything but need to do it all slowly, I just hope its not too slowly! I think I will get to the point where I can approach the community more than just online, I'm just not someone who is comfortable in new situations with new people (so kinda throwing myself in at the deep end here)

I "read" many of them in the bookstore, because for a while with fairly young kids, date night consisted of going to the bookstore for several hours. But from what I remember breezing through them, I like them. Many hate them with a passion, figuring the son and co-writer are not good authors and only are trying to cash in. But for me, who loves a good universe and epic, most anything that adds to the richness and history of the epic is good enough for me. I'm re-reading them now, enjoying House Atreides just fine.

I love the initial trilogy created by his son (House Atreides, House Harkonnen, and House Corrino). It does a great job of exploring how the characters end up in the positions they are in at the start of Dune, and explores a lot of areas of interest including what it means to be a swordmaster, the events that lead to the Atreides takeover of Arrakis, the Fremen effort to terraform Dune, and a lot of other fascinating storylines. They aren't perfect but they are a really enjoyable read. I liked the Butlerian Jihad books as well. Some thought the conflict was too on the nose, but I like man vs. robot stories, and I think he does a great job demonstrating why mankind is terrified of computers. You may get some dissenting opinions on this as the prequels do seem to be divisive with fans, but I really enjoyed them.

Initially I liked the first Dune book - but I was younger. As I became older I have become more disappointed in science fiction because there has become an overabundance of fiction and an alarming ignorance of science. Here is an interesting thought for science fiction. What the earth thinks is a first contact with a super intelligent interstellar society with nothing but benevolent intentions but then comes to realize that they are coming to earth to destroy all the wicked and preserve the righteous and how they distinguish between the two does not quite fit with the human paradigm. The Traveler

This is not hypocrisy.

It's such a weird idea, isn't it, to imply that if someone is viewed as harsh (or as "garbage" as it was put) in their online interactions that they don't deserve respect for trying to be polite in person.

1) Julie appears to have been excommunicated. That shouldn't be dismissed, by which she calls her disciplinary council "unrighteous dominion" in a podcast. This says a lot pertaining to her heart and mind and the spirit she is actually following. 2) The Church appears to have physically said her books are not to be used in classroom settings 3) According to an article I am reading she is divulging experiences that have not been revealed about Adam and Eve and others that aren't in any revealed word. Which means, if these are true, she should have kept them sacred and to herself as the Lord will reveal to the Church collectively to his prophets and then to the body of the Church. This then tells me, in light of #1 and #2 that I don't put much stock in her words. 4) Prophecy regarding an earthquake in Utah, Wasatch, really isn't anything new. We are on a major fault. The Church is upgrading building to withstand earthquakes of larger magnitude. I would be more interested in that fact. With that being shared, no, I don't put much stock in any of her words.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is unveiling abuse prevention training for all leaders of children and youth. Every adult working with children must complete the 30-minute training by September 22, 2019, and again every three years. The course is available online and deals with both prevention and responding to abuse. The audiovisual training is available at ProtectingChildren.ChurchofJesusChrist.org and consists of an illustrated slideshow that includes scenarios that require responses. The Church consulted with child protection groups, therapists and other professionals to create the training. Church policy now requires two adults to be present at all times with children and youth. The training course directs North American bishops and stake presidents to contact the Church’s abuse helpline about every situation in which a person may have been abused or neglected. The course instructs leaders of children and youth to contact legal authorities as well as the bishops of their congregations. The training is recorded and associated with the membership numbers of leaders. The requirement applies to every adult who serves in youth Sunday School and seminary... View the full article

I agree, I feel like it's still pretty dangerous (potentially addicting) to use as a medicine, but I feel the same way about opioids, and there are occasions we use them. I liked the compotent physician phrase too lol.

I like how they used the term "competent physician". And it must be taken as prescribed. After more research it could very well be found to do more harm than good, and be advised against in the future.

@Mores From what I gather, you think Gator said he thinks it's better to be "A" in real life and "B" online than "B" in real life and "A" online. When what he said was he respects people who are "A" online and in real life rather than "A" online and "B" in real life.

The church is still small. We do live in a unique time where the Church spans through many nations. Please do not take my comments wrong. Though I have never been to Brazil - I am grateful for the Saints there. I have traveled to many nations and one of my greatest joys is meeting with the Saints - even when I cannot understand the language. It may seem odd to you because I am what the world calls white. I am of Danish descent (blond hair and blue eyes) and a 5th generation member of the Church. My ancestors came by wagon to Utah and are honored as pioneers. But it is interesting how we all want to think we have a special representative among the apostles. My mother was a school chum with Elder Marion D. Hanks and my uncle was Elder Hanks life long best friend. Elder Hanks was our "Danish" apostle after 3 generations. There is not one now - but my generation broke from tradition. My wife is brunette, brown/hazel eyes and much darker complected - not a drop of "Danish" blood in her line - We know because we have done DNA tests. Plus her parents are both first generation converts. Now members are in many nations - when I was in Taiwan there were strong active wards but 90% of the ward members had only been members for 2 years or less. I cannot express my joy in seeing so many new and even "non-white" members and hope to have the blood of new generations in the Church mingled with my family through descendants. I express my welcome to you personally and add that since my youth I was taught by my parents to pray for every nation, kindred tongue and people to be represented in the kingdom of G-d on earth. Because we are all of one and the same family in G-d and this is the time to remember and join with all our brothers and sisters. The Traveler

Stock markets CAN be a gamble for gamblers. But for those who know what they're doing stock markets are a good way to make your money work for you instead of you working for money. Your money can make good money regardless of the direction of the market - up or down.

My next book

I don't know if it is NT's misspelling of sietch in the thread title, or my pathetic attempt to connect the Dune and Star Wars universes (I will gladly edit my previous post to remove the reference, if need be), but this did not get very far. To give it another chance, as promised I picked up and recently finished God Emperor of Dune -- the 4th book in the series. (Spoilers will follow, if anyone wants to avoid them, stop here). I find this one an intriguing extension of the storyline. I won't summarize the story (unless those who have not read it want me to. The things that have always intrigued me in this story: Leto II's transformation into a sandworm/human hybrid. Perhaps it is just an extension of the previous books. Paul become the Kwisatz Haderach, Alia becomes "abomination", Leto II and his sister become something like abomination, but not quite. But this transformation seems grander than the others. The near continuous presence of the Duncan Idaho gholas throughout Leto II's reign. I'm not sure I understand why, but something about Idaho causes him to come back time and time again. I can recall the first time I read this how Leto II's death towards the end took me by surprise. Maybe I was too young to pick up on the foreshadowing the first time, but I did not expect him to be killed at the end, and the manner of his death was very memorable. Next up is Heretics of Dune. I have a couple of books in between, so it will be a little bit later this fall, maybe winter, before I get to it. Another book that has memorable moments, and I will enjoy being reminded of the many forgotten details from this next chapter in human future history (what kind of contradiction is that?).

These are the types of questions that he would likely have picked to answer.

These are incredible questions to ask a GA, thanks for sharing them

I genuinely believe that my friend who is a member was sent to me for a purpose by someone. He is definitely of a higher regard in my eyes

As a teenager, I complained to my mother about an older sibling's very obvious pretense of being all mature and grown-up. Mom told me something very wise that has stuck with me through my life: "Sometimes people need to fake being some way until they grow into it." Everyone understands and approves of the idea of genuineness. But a patient man is often an impatient man who holds his tongue. A loving man is often an angry, uncharitable man who holds his temper. This is how we begin to act like Christ. I do not consider such sincere efforts to be hypocrisy; quite the opposite. And I do not believe that there is any virtue in being a jerk in person as well as online instead of only online. In my experience, personal and otherwise, people who try to be kind in person eventually learn to try to extend that to their online persona. It's a facile and ultimately false argument to maintain that those who are less kind online than in person are hypocrites.

Also note that most of our communication happens non-verbally (aka is more then the words we speak). People who can't process the non-verbal cues (or struggle with them) are generally considered to have some form of social disorder. On-line all non-verbal cues are stripped away.. leaving just the words. Keyboard courage or keyboard warriors may be nothing of the sort. They might be behaving exactly the same way... but without the non-verbal cues the words sound harsh and stark.

Sort of strikes me as a really hamfisted "I ain't racist, some of my best friends is [insert racial epithet here]."

Nope we did not. Given that he clearly did not predict it either (otherwise he would have confessed that sin of his BIL along with all the others)... Well I guess he is probably feeling pretty useless himself. Add to that his clear investment in his Sister that we do not have... Well it is easier to lash out and strangers then to face the reality of your own powerlessness, impotence, and failures. For whatever flaws he accuses us of... he has to carry the guilt of having it himself.

@pam I think my subconscious wanted to attend. I accidently booked my flight home on the 24th. So count me in for any dinner on the 23rd. Yay!

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/08/16/ed-smart-elizabeth-smart-father-comes-out-gay-announces-divorce/2027981001/

I'd love to come. Unfortunately, I won't be in Provo until at least the 28th, and probably not until November.

Lesson learned, apparently.

Yep, stopping at God Emperor is a good move. Chaptehouse has an entire chapter consisting of Reverend Mother Superior staring at a painting and thinking about humanity. The high point of the chapter is when we learn the impact her musings have on her menu selection for lunch. You'll also not be subjected to chairdogs and Futars.

With such energetic, loving, well-intentioned characters, it's hard not to see parallels between Parks and Rec and every ward you've ever been in. Through crafts, close friendships, a love of nature, strong couples, and hard work, the hallmarks of Parks and Recreation share a lot of similarities with life as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 1. When you get a calling you feel completely unqualified for but it goes ok: NBC The Lord doesn't call the qualified, He qualifies the called...especially the shoeshinists. 2. When the Young Women get an opportunity to play volleyball with the Young Men: NBC 3. When you go on Trek and realize you were definitely not meant to live in the 1850's: NBC 4. When you want your first date outfit to be equal parts modest and irresistible: NBC 5. The college couples with the cheapest, cheesiest (and most adorable) love stories: NBC 6. When your Relief Society is truly all it's cracked up to be: NBC 7. When you're three months from returning home from your mission and in complete denial: NBC Put... View the full article

Just to hear an apostle ask it would be so worth it.

Better be prepared for the counter question.

What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

They watch General Conference in the DC temple? With red carpeting?

Dude. The Word of Wisdom is totally a CLASSIC! Not even Herod's server could make Daniel and Nephi smoke the peace pipe!

I am of the belief that doctrine is not as consequential in the eternal scheme of things as the world tries to make it - case in point the Pharisees. I believe there are three things far more important to the Saints of G-d and I will list them: #1. The Law. #2. The Ordinances #3. The Everlasting Covenant. I include the term "everlasting" with covenant to uniquely specify all covenants acceptable and embraced by G-d. If I can use symbolism - I would say that the 3 items listed are symbolic to 3 legs on a stool or table which is representative of the relationship humans have with G-d. In short one cannot remain worthy and receive blessing from ordinances if they transgress the law and break the everlasting covenant. Participating in ordinances is not all that is necessary to keep the law and remain loyal to the everlasting covenant. All 3 are necessary and the failure or weakness of one leaves the whole incomplete. I am not saying that doctrine has no place - just that we do not miss the forest for all the trees or throw the baby out with the bathwater (speaking symbolically). What brings me to sorrow are the Saints of G-d that put their "doctrines" before The Law, The Ordinances and The Everlasting Covenant. To be honest concerning myself - I am a believer in the doctrine of evolution. I believe it has strong applications to many doctrines we hold to as Saints. I also believe those that do not believe in evolution are poorly informed (among other things). Strangely, I also believe that there will be many in the Eternal Celestial Kingdom that did not believe in evolution during their probation. In short, as long as someone keep The Law, accepts The Ordinances (does not change them) and is loyal to The Everlasting Covenant - they have fulfilled their purpose and their belief in doctrine is secondary. If I were Satan I would make doctrine the most important element in the hearts of the Saints (saints first and the rest of the world to follow) and convince them that anyone that disagrees with their important and sacred doctrines are not real Saints. The Traveler

All meaningful communication will cease as people spout random words at each other and stare in confusion when no one understands anyone else.