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  1. laronius

    Despite All We Can Do

    Just a few verses earlier Nephi says: 20 And now, my brethren, I have spoken plainly that ye cannot err. And yet here we are. 😆 The way I see it this is not about one correct principle and one incorrect principle but rather two correct principles but trying to figure out which one the writer/speaker was specifically referring to. But I have another question for you @maklelan regarding footnotes. Using this verse as an example the footnote to the word "do" takes us to James 2:24 which says "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." To me it would be a little confusing to have this verse connected directly to another that says "despite all we can do." So if in translation you change a verse away from the then commonly understood interpretation do you also have to change the footnotes as well?
    4 points
  2. mordorbund

    True or False

    There's a simple argument that shows that Franz Kiekeben doesn't speak truth: If he did, we wouldn't think anything in his statements were questionable or untrue.
    4 points
  3. Vort

    True or False

    What a stupid argument. It literally makes no sense. Franz Kiekeben apparently was never formally introduced to Logic, or if he was, never bothered to deepen the acquaintance.
    3 points
  4. Grunt

    True or False

    That was exactly my thought.
    1 point
  5. It's so dang easy to make a slip of the tongue and look the fool. No, you don't inject UV radiation. Radiation is, well, radiation. You can't load a syringe with photons. When responding to a criticism roughly equating too "The president is so dumb he thinks we should inhale lysol and inject bleach", responding with a slip of the tongue like this makes it worse, not better. The link talks about irradiating blood and emulsions and stuff, and injecting the irradiated blood and emulsions and stuff into people. Thank you for the links, though. I knew such things were somewhere.
    1 point
  6. maklelan

    Despite All We Can Do

    No one is suggesting the way this verse is translated will change, but if it ever did, that would be up to the scriptures committee. The translations of the Book of Mormon carry a different set of footnotes from the English, too.
    1 point
  7. Fether

    Despite All We Can Do

    It isn’t clear to me that that is what is being said either. Now I am no scholar of linguistic history or any other extra curricular scriptural forms, so my thoughts may only seem feeble to you. But to me “can do” is not referring to the amount of physical/mental/emotional/spiritual effort we exhort, but rather what we “can do”. It isn’t a drill sergeant yelling at us to work harder and harder before he comes in and assists, but rather a parent helping a child clean their room. The child, depending on the age and ability, can pick up the blocks and put them in the bucket. But he cannot out the bucket back in the shelf. What can I do: - I can be obedient to “X commandment” - I can get baptized - I can receive the Holy Ghost - I can take the sacrament - I can receive my endowments - I can be sealed in the temple - I can repent of my sins - I can develop faith, hope and charity - I can develop and apply humility - I can confess my sins - I can apologize What I cannot do: - I cannot save myself from death - I cannot learn to be perfect - I cannot purify my soul - I cannot justify my sins - I cannot sanctify myself - I cannot exhale myself As we do those things that are within our reach and capability, God’s Grace is there for us. I think individual effort is a major part of this, but it is not the whole picture.
    1 point
  8. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4783265/?fbclid=IwAR0prehXPhA_Sak6kf2zy6ncBVHKIZGpcA18IBewBfegUgYcjkvvRzt0_N8 It turns out that in the early 1900s, doctors figured out a way to inject UV radiation directly into the blood stream and were using it to kill bacteria. So what Trump was saying about using light to kill COVID-19 in the body isn't that far-fetched. And in fact, a week ago a company sent the Associated Press a press release saying it was working on a medical device that could inject UV radiation: https://apnews.com/b44f4531071e6204023f7b8e16f59d4b?fbclid=IwAR2PGnGXcpjvJIv9uCFM8CnYvP5M7804DL_Y4Z1TVmZ24Qx4Uwh-aKuB9ac
    1 point
  9. maklelan

    Despite All We Can Do

    The date of composition is really immaterial here, but whether or not the Book of Mormon is quoting Luke is a much more complex question. You're exaggerating. No one can give "total effort." They can absolutely give more effort, or adequate effort, or a lot of effort, but even on the basketball court, no one expends every last unit of effort. Similarly, no one can expend every last unit of effort in remaining obedient. That's just not possible for a normal human. Same with the command to be as perfect as God, or the command to be obedient in all things. That's simply not possible. Yes, that's the reconciliation part. Grace is involved in both the reconciliation (justification/being made perfect), and the sanctification (salvation). But again, no one apart from Christ has ever done or will ever be able to do ALL they could possibly do. To say grace is only activated once we have done all we could possibly do is to say it's never been activated. President Uchtdorf made that pretty clear. Even the passage in Mosiah makes it pretty clear doing all we could possibly do is just not reasonable, much less required.
    1 point
  10. Joseph Smith commented at one point that he had been "reading the German," which he said he found most accurate, but the identification of that version with the Luther translation is only an educated guess. He didn't explicitly identify "the German" as the Luther, but that's likely what it was. Yes, the Catholic edition has been the preferred translation in German for many years. The translation was supposed to be an ecumenical project (thus the name EinheitsĂźbersetzung), but by the time it was ready for publication, disagreements had resulted in really only the Catholics being left. There was a new edition published in 2017, and that's now the "preferred" edition. I find it a quite good improvement on the previous version. There are a number of places where it is more faithful to the source texts, but a lot of German-speaking saints have been upset about it.
    1 point
  11. Moonbeast32

    True or False

    This is the classic Euthyphro argument. Our answer is that truth, God, and positive morality are indistinguishable. True religion is moral. False religion is immoral. There is no middle ground. If therefore people have moral issues with true religion, then that's that's their problem, not ours.
    1 point
  12. Excellent point @Anddenex change and repentance really are one in the same. If someone wants to know if they are truly penitent all they have to do is look at what for them has or is changing. For me I have found all too often that I may feel sorrowful enough for my sins when I pray but if I get off my knees and keep doing as I've always done then I'm not really repenting.
    1 point
  13. JohnsonJones

    True or False

    I think it could be argued either way. 1. If one is atheist, then the answer is obvious. Morality of some sort was around far before religion was around, as religion would be a construct of men. If religion is a construct of men, than the morals of it are also constructs of men. Thus, it would mean when you look at a religion it is just a reflection of the culture that gave rise to it. The morals it teaches are the morals that the society that created it felt were important. This explains why different religions sometimes have different moralities. 2. On the opposite side, if we feel that God created man and gave us laws, than morality DOES originate in religion. If we take the idea that the natural man is an enemy to God, then it is up to us to suppress the natural man and to become the spiritual man. The natural man would prefer things such as power, greed, lust, and all things that would lead to flagrant immorality, bloodshed, and taking advantage of others. If we look to our entertainment today in the west it reflects many of these base and natural tendencies that drive the natural man. We see it's influence on society at large. Over 90% of our young people do not wait for marriage and have not lived chaste lives. Their focus in life is the pursuit of money, riches and power. We glory at blood and death on TV and in movies. On the otherhand, the SPIRITUAL man, that which we see as moral in the Church, does not strive for these things. They seek to put the Lord first. They do not love to see violence and bloodshed. They wish to remain chaste. They desire to be loyal to their spouse both before, during, and after temporal marriages in this life in that they keep the law of Chastity at all times. The do not seek riches unless it is to preserve their own life, to help others, and to raise up the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. They put the Lord and others before self. They LOVE their families, their spouse, and their God. In this, the Spiritual man is given laws by God which establish the CORRECT morality. Morality is not a reflection of culture, though culture COULD reflect morality if that culture lives the Laws of God. Today, we can see that culture in the West does NOT reflect the Laws of God. It is NOT moral in the way I would call it moral. In that, if we believe True religion and the Commandments truly come from God, than currently society does NOT reflect Moral living or good Morals. In this, we could say we have two moralities. That of a comparative morality (1) established by the culture it originates in and that of true morality (2) which is that established by the true gospel and the laws and commandments. We have heard the saying "My ways are not your ways, and your ways are not my ways" which holds true today. Comparative morality is in conflict with true morality and in many instances that of our Western Morality today (1) or Comparative Morality is in direct conflict with True Morality (2) or that given by the Lord in his laws and commandments.
    1 point
  14. Anddenex

    Despite All We Can Do

    I, honestly, don't see the difference between 'after all we can do" and "despite all we can do." This argument/debate seems similar to the debate of conditional vs. unconditional love. I, personally, like the interpretation provided in our Bible Dictionary, "However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). It is truly the grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible." I could only find one source from the Church's website regarding "despite all we can do" from Elder Oaks, "But despite all we can do, we cannot have a fulness of joy in this world or through our own efforts. (See D&C 101:36.) Only in Christ can our joy be full. This is why the angel proclaimed: “I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people." Elder Oaks has also said, "And what is “all we can do”? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end." So, Elder Oaks has used both phrases. The concept of "after all we can do" reminds me of (and correlates with) the following verses of scripture: 1) Mosiah 2: 21, "I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants." 2) Omni 1: 26, "And now, my beloved brethren, I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved." 3) Moroni 10: 32, "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ." 4) Moses 6: 60, "For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;" (This encompasses the bounteous love and mercy given by Jesus Christ) Notice how the term "despite" doesn't fit perfectly with Moroni 10:32, but "after all we can do" fits nicely. The Bible Dictionary definition "total effort" seems to some it up nicely between "despite" and "after." Despite our total effort we are still saved by grace. After our total effort, we are still saved by grace. I would say the argument is pedantic and is splitting hairs; however, that is from my perspective. Also, I am a little confused with this statement, "the two-stage soteriological process of reconciliation with God (also called "justification" in the New Testament), and then exaltation, with only the latter being addressed in 2 Nephi 25:23." 2 Nephi 25: 23 implies all Moses 6:60. If we do not keep the commandments (includes repentance) we cannot be justified, which means we are unable to be sanctified. I am reading your statement as, "2 Nephi 25: 23 only refers to exaltation." Is that what you meant?
    1 point
  15. And what happens when you feed it after midnight?
    0 points