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Showing content with the highest reputation on 11/16/20 in all areas
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Where did it happen
NeuroTypical and 5 others reacted to mirkwood for a topic
I'm a heartland model believer. The topic is interesting but not pertinent to my salvation.6 points -
So... would you prefer that it was some cultureless depiction? Everyone wearing grey clothing while walking around an open grass field with variation of grass species from across the world to avoid picking any specific scenario?3 points
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Where did it happen
NeuroTypical and 2 others reacted to estradling75 for a topic
There is a big difference between the Church taking an Official position... And members (including artists and leaders) having and expressing an opinion on the subject. The church has declined to so the former but it does not restrict its members (even those in leadership) from doing the latter.3 points -
Rending the Veil of Unbelief
Just_A_Guy and one other reacted to mikbone for a topic
Jeffrey R. Holland, “Rending the Veil of Unbelief,” in The Voice of My Servants: Apostolic Messages on Teaching, Learning, and Scripture, ed. Scott C. Esplin and Richard Neitzel Holzapfel (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University; Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2010), 143–64. The second issue that requires preliminary comment stems from the Lord’s exclamation, “Never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger” (Ether 3:9). And later, “Never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast” (Ether 3:15). The potential for confusion here comes with the realization that many—indeed, we would assume all—of the major prophets living prior to the brother of Jared had seen God. How then does one account for the Lord’s declaration? Adam’s face-to-face conversations with God in the Garden of Eden can be exempted because of the paradisiacal, prefallen state of that setting and relationship. Furthermore, other prophets’ visions of God, such as those of Moses and Isaiah in the Bible, or Nephi and Jacob in the Book of Mormon, came after this “never before” experience of the brother of Jared. But before the era of the Tower of Babel, the Lord did appear unto Adam and “the residue of his posterity who were righteous” in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman three years before Adam’s death (see D&C 107:53–55). And we are left with Enoch, who said very explicitly, “I saw the Lord; and he stood before my face, and he talked with me, even as a man talketh one with another, face to face” (Moses 7:4). We assume there would have been other prophets living in the period between Adam’s leaving the Garden of Eden and the building of the Tower of Babel who also saw God in a similar manner, including Noah, who “found grace in the eyes of the Lord” and “walked with God” (Genesis 6:8–9), the same scriptural phrase used to describe Enoch’s relationship with the Lord (see Genesis 5:24). This issue has been much discussed by Latter-day Saint writers, and there are several possible explanations, any one—or all—of which may cast some light upon the larger truth of this passage. Nevertheless, without additional scriptural revelation or commentary on the matter, any conjecture is only that—conjecture—and as such is inadequate and incomplete. One possibility is that this is simply a comment made in the context of one dispensation and as such applies only to the Jaredites and Jaredite prophets—that Jehovah has never before revealed Himself to one of their seers and revelators. Obviously this theory has severe limitations when measured against such phrases as “never before” and “never has man” and combined with the realization that Jared and his brother are the fathers of this dispensation, the first to whom God could have revealed Himself in their era. Another suggestion is that the lowercase reference to “man” is the key to this passage, suggesting that the Lord has never revealed Himself to the unsanctified, to the nonbeliever, to temporal, earthy, natural man. The implication here is that only those who have put off the natural man, only those who are untainted by the world—in short, the sanctified (such as Adam, Enoch, and now the brother of Jared)—are entitled to this privilege. Some have believed that the Lord here means He has never before revealed Himself to this degree or to this extent. This theory would suggest that divine appearances to earlier prophets had not been with this same “fulness,” that never before had the veil been lifted to give such a complete revelation of Christ’s nature and being. A further possibility is that this is the first time Jehovah has appeared and identified Himself as Jesus Christ, the Son of God, thus the interpretation of the passage being “never have I showed myself [as Jesus Christ] unto man whom I have created” (Ether 3:15). This possibility is reinforced by one way of reading Moroni’s later editorial comment: “Having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus” (Ether 3:20; emphasis added). Yet another interpretation of this passage is that the faith of the brother of Jared was so great he saw not only the spirit finger and body of the premortal Jesus (which presumably many other prophets had also seen) but also had some distinctly more revealing aspect of Christ’s body of flesh, blood, and bone. Exactly what insight into the flesh-and-blood nature of Christ’s future body the brother of Jared might have had is not clear, but Jehovah does say to him, “Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood” (Ether 3:9), and Moroni does say that Christ revealed Himself in this instance “in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites” (Ether 3:17). Some have taken that to mean literally “the same body” the Nephites would see—a body of flesh and blood. A safer position would be that it was at least the exact spiritual likeness of that future body. Jehovah says, “Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit . . .and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh” (Ether 3:16), and Moroni says, “Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit” (Ether 3:17). A final—and in terms of the faith of the brother of Jared (which is the issue at hand) surely the most persuasive—explanation for me is that Christ is saying to the brother of Jared, “Never have I showed myself unto man in this manner, without my volition, driven solely by the faith of the beholder.” As a rule, prophets are invited into the presence of the Lord, are bidden to enter His presence by Him and only with His sanction. The brother of Jared, on the other hand, stands alone then (and we assume now) in having thrust himself through the veil, not as an unwelcome guest but perhaps technically an uninvited one. Says Jehovah, “Never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. . . . Never has man believed in me as thou hast” (Ether 3:9, 15; emphasis added). Obviously the Lord Himself is linking unprecedented faith with this unprecedented vision. If the vision is not unique, then it has to be the faith— and how the vision is obtained—that is so remarkable. The only way this faith could be so remarkable would be in its ability to take this prophet, uninvited, where others had only been able to go by invitation.2 points -
Where did it happen
NeuroTypical and one other reacted to Emmanuel Goldstein for a topic
Oh, don't mistake my irritation with lack of faith. The message of the book is without a doubt, true. I just want more variety and I want people to keep their minds open to something other than the dictates of most BYU PHD's.2 points -
Where did it happen
NeuroTypical reacted to Emmanuel Goldstein for a topic
That is the funniest meme dump I have seen in awhile. Thank you. lol1 point -
Where did it happen
JohnsonJones reacted to Vort for a topic
For good or for evil, to listen or to mock, for their salvation or for their destruction, the focus of the adults is on Christ—where it should be. But a child can still point out a pretty butterfly.1 point -
Far, far away, on Judea's plain... What do you mean Judea doesn't have a plain? Of course it does! There were sheep grazing, right? Sheep graze on plains! Duh.1 point
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Where did it happen
Vort reacted to NeuroTypical for a topic
Ugh. Images created from death masks has always been a horrible idea. People don't look like themselves when their gazillion facial muscles have stopped working at death.1 point -
Where did it happen
NeuroTypical reacted to Emmanuel Goldstein for a topic
What I mean, is that drawing seems to depict him as an out of control psychopath. I don't buy it.1 point -
Where did it happen
Jane_Doe reacted to Emmanuel Goldstein for a topic
I see. I look forward to the day that the locations are found. I know that the Lord told joseph that the earth would testify of the truthfulness of the book. Maybe they will find evidence from Archaeology.1 point -
Where did it happen
Vort reacted to NeuroTypical for a topic
Heh. BYU PHDs and artists. Two groups of people who should never have the final say on anyone's religious beliefs. More variety for you: Matt Page gets the red sash right: I'll always be a fan of Violent Christ: JK Richards Art Thou a King Then These are my favorite, because I'm in them (although the artist got my gender wrong):1 point -
Where did it happen
Vort reacted to NeuroTypical for a topic
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Where did it happen
NeuroTypical reacted to Emmanuel Goldstein for a topic
See, I just don't see Joseph as a ranter.1 point -
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Where did it happen
Traveler reacted to NeuroTypical for a topic
(Also, see here for a lurid and tawdry telling of how they make the Angel Moroni statues for our temples.)1 point -
Where did it happen
Jane_Doe reacted to NeuroTypical for a topic
Never confuse artistic depictions, for canon scripture. This is my favorite bit of church art: Two Thousand Young Warriors, by Arnold Friberg. It's in our primary, sunday school, priesthood, and Teachings of the Presidents manuals, it's hanging on some of our ward building walls. Just look at all the dubious doctrinal liberties taken in this thing! - Bearded Caucasian Helaman looking like a Legatus Legionis. - Riding a horse, something never mentioned in scripture. - Lamanites = Native Americans + 20 extra lbs of muscle. (Friberg was big on muscles.) - The ceremonial banners come from Charlton Heston's The Ten Commandments, representing the 12 tribes of Israel (Friberg was involved in that production too). - Jade bracer, 'cuz archaeology tells us they had Jade in Mesoamerica. - Look at the width of that guy's dagger scabbard - meant to imply an obsidian weapon ('cuz arcaeology!). The hilts, and the other scabbards, imply steel (because that's actually in the scriptures). Yeah, no really folks - don't turn over your understanding of what things must have looked like, to artists. They'll always get something wrong. And don't judge artists harshly either, humans just plain old do better at teaching and learning when we have pictures to look at, which means the church has got to pay someone to draw something.1 point -
A couple of years ago I took a vacation with my wife to the middle east. I came away from that experience with the realization that few (if any) artists have ever visited the Holy Land. The artwork of which I had become so accustomed to growing up - obviously is not accurate. Having seen a tree in the Middle East with white fruit that is called the Tree of Life - I will never be able to look at artwork of the tree of life and not be greatly disappointed. However, this is the engineer and scientist inside me speaking. My father was a very accomplished artist. I grew up very disconnected to the house hold of an artist. And so I would pass on some things I know of but was too OCD to move beyond myself. My father explained to me that art is not a picture of things but an expression of something the artist intends to communicate. If we look closely at an oil painting of a landscape with a tree - we will discover that the leaves of the tree are patterned brush strokes that may look like leaves from a distance but are mere blobs of oil paint up close. The same with the bark on the tree - and so on throughout the painting. A good art critic can identify the brush strokes in a painting as well as a forensic scientist can discern a finger print. Part of the impressionistic style is to convey subjective concepts rather than an exact replica of a picture. All this is not a new idea of art expression. Even the ancient pictoglyph on a cave wall was intended to convey something more than an exact detailed picture. And so I will end with something my father said to me many times. "If you do not like that artwork of others you are free to create your own. If you lack the skills or just refuse to produce what your mind's eye sees - is it not hypocrisy to criticize the work of others?" The Traveler1 point
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Listening to Arguments at the SCOTUS
JohnsonJones reacted to Traveler for a topic
I am not concerned about elements of our government becoming political as I am that as a nation we are rejecting the sacred covenants - like the changing of the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman to whatever it is that is desired for someone to marry. The Traveler1 point -
LDS teachings on Hades, the state of the dead...
DennisTate reacted to Traveler for a topic
This is likely very accurate - but unfortunately most religious conflicts will not be resolved until we are beyond the grave in the spirit world - for the obvious reasons. The Traveler1 point -
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Where did it happen
mordorbund reacted to NeuroTypical for a topic
Numbers mean different things to different people. Listen math nerd, this is an art thread, got it? Keep your fancy arithmetics to yourself.0 points -
Where did it happen
Carborendum reacted to NeedleinA for a topic
Yah, but that painting was based on a photograph, right?0 points -
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Numbers mean different things to different people.0 points
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Where did it happen
NeuroTypical reacted to Emmanuel Goldstein for a topic
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