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I just finished a wonderful documentary on BYU tv called, "I Saw the Hosts of the Dead". Long story short, it touches upon the background & circumstances that led Joseph F. Smith to have the vision found in D&C 138. It mentioned the Flu Pandemic, oddly enough about 100 years ago. The CDC's website states: Here we find ourselves in a 'pandemic'... again. I was impressed with a couple of thoughts while watching the show: 1. After 1918, life went on. The world 'overcame' that Pandemic, we all can do the same. 2. It took some ugly events in JFS's life to help push him to the point of the beautiful revelation in Section 138. Bored? Looking for something to watch? Give it a try. Not bad, not bad at all.

I think it is fair to consider that vaccination does cause injury and death. It is normally overblown, but I think that it is not something that can be written off. Unfortunately, too many take it too far in their avoidance of vaccinations and become anti-vaxxers in general, which has led to MANY MORE deaths due to this, with the unfortunate casualties generally being children dying from childhood illnesses that we thought were wiped out decades ago (and would be still if not for the anti-vaxxers). Still, to say that there are no deaths from a vaccination problem is similar to saying that the deaths from COVID-19 in the US are understated. Both do not look at the full picture. From all estimates, deaths from Covid-19 in the US have been undercounted by up to 50% (meaning we could have almost double the number of dead from Covid-19 in the US. Hospitals and very conservative trumpist can try to disguise the causes of death or how many are infected, individuals may die at home in apartments without being counted at first, but they normally cannot hide the number of deaths. Just like the actuaries of insurance companies have pretty involved formulas for figuring out the true numbers of deaths from a cause (which is done with flu deaths each year) they will do the same for COVID-19. The results thus far do not look promising, it appears that there are MANY uncounted deaths. Probably not 50% (that's more of the worst case), but could be hovering around 25% of Covid-19 deaths being under-reported. In that same light, from the opposite side of the spectrum, the complications from the vaccine are not being discussed all that much from what I see. Much of this is to encourage people to be vaccinated rather than discourage them. If the complications were discussed more, it would only serve to reinforce some of the negative attitudes some people have developed. I have heard and read that there ARE complications and that means that there are probably deaths. Here's the kicker though, and this applies to many of the vaccines that are out there. Covid-19 has anywhere from a 1% - 7% (depending on the situations and circumstances, when hospitals are overwhelmed it seems to be much higher in the 5%-6% range, but when everything is going well and the numbers are few it may even be below 1% mortality) of deaths. The Vaccine from everything I see shows that it has under a .1% mortality rate. Some say it's even less at a .01% mortality rate. That does not mean there is no risk, but even at it's worse, I have 1/10 percent chance of dying from it in the worst case comparatively to Covid-19, and 1/7000 chance comparatively in the best cases. I think I'll take the vaccine with those odds.

I'm agreeing with you carlimac. The notion that our prophet is "acting as guinea pig" by taking a vaccine that has been tested on tens of thousands of people, found to be safe and effective, is preposterous.

In all the links shared on this thread, I don't see anything that states or shows that the vaccine caused a death. That might be what some people take away from them, but I don't see it explicitly stated, or even really implied.

Because although you and person0 are both firmly entrenched in your belief that the COVID vaccination has caused death, neither of you can actually cite your source. You cite sources that most absolutely, in no uncertain terms, do NOT make the claim you are making. Here are exact quotes from your sources: "This does not imply that there is a causal relationship between the deaths and the vaccine." "Limitation of VAERS data: Generally cannot assess if vaccine caused an adverse event." You and person0 seem determined to want to force those dots connect to "there is a causal relationship between the deaths and the vaccine", and "VAERS data can assess if vaccine caused an adverse event". Things mean what they mean. They don't mean the opposite of what they mean. No matter how much Grunt and Person0 want them to.

It is not odd... It is understanding human nature. As a general rule humans are bad at math and probabilities. The more people hear about something the more likely they are to think it will happen to them. Take the lottery for example. A person is more likely to get hit by lightning Twice then win the lottery... Yet people still think that they will be the winner one day and play because they hear all about the winners every time. Same with a vaccine. Odds of an adverse reaction from a vaccine are very possibly at the "Winning the Lottery" level. If the whole point is to get everyone to take it then you have to avoid spooking many of them into irrationally thinking that they are injecting death. The problem of course is our society is becoming more and more polarized and people want their absolutes. If you do not disclose everything then you are dishonest and can't be trusted, but if you do disclose everything then the most trivial and unlikely to happen events get blown up all out of proportion and context.

And that's been my entire point. Odd that people appear to be writing it off.

Later.. Do you understand how VAERS works? VAERS tends to report adverse events as well as adverse reactions. Yes, car crashes appear in VAERS, as do murderous actions, child abuse, and, infamously, turning into the Incredible Hulk.

Huh. Perhaps here is the issue: Hey Grunt - if someone gets the covid shot, and then they get hit by a car and dies, do they end up in VAERS as a death? I believe they do. I'm thinking you believe they don't. Here's why I believe it: I am part of the phase III trial for the Moderna vaccine. I got my shots back in August. I am now enrolled in a 5-year health tracking program. Every two weeks, I fill out a report on any health changes I have experienced. Now, here's the part I'm thinking you don't get: It doesn't matter whether any of my health changes are related to COVID or not. I report them regardless. If I die from car crash, my death data will be entered into the database of things that have happened to vaccinated people. Well, I can't think of any better way to address it, than how I did above. I'm sticking with my opinion that there are things that you don't understand, that if you did, you'd get it. Germany gets it, from that article I shared. Of course VAERS is a source, and a reliable one too. It's quite telling that you look at my "long post", and you think I'm making either of those claims. Basically, hey Grunt - there are things you don't get. I'd suggest you slog through my long post and try to understand my points. VAERS is good at some things, and not good at other things. Again, VAERS' own materials flat out state one of the limitations of their own data, is that you "Generally cannot assess if vaccine caused an adverse event". Again, here's a screen shot from their own learning materials: Again, if you can't or won't understand why that last bullet point is there, you'll be lost in "believing stuff that ain't true" land. It's an uncomfortable place to be, I'm certainly no stranger to it. But not on this issue.

There is? Who knows this? What is your source? I hope you're not talking about the VAERS database, because no, it does not show any known risk of any severe side effects. If you think it does, I'd suggest you go to the VAERS website and browse through their learning tools, especially their third YouTube video on strengths and limitations of the VAERS data. I'm confused. I thought you responded to my post with the word "Sure". Did that not indicate you understood and accepted the points I was making? I'm confused, because if you understand and accept the points I was making, you would understand why the list of stuff in the VAERS database isn't sufficient to know whether a vaccine is safe or not. Again, my point is when you compare the vaccinated people against their control group, they have similar rates of "death and injury". Again, I'd suggest you go to the VAERS website and browse through their learning tools, especially their third YouTube video on strengths and limitations of the VAERS data. Especially this slide and why it's there: If you don't understand why that last bullet point is there, you can't hope to have an accurate or valid opinion on what the VAERS website can and can't tell us about vaccine safety. Are you referring to this news item? Ok, I just read it through. It's an article about how some terminally ill people have died after getting the vaccine, right? Again, if you understand the points I'm raising about data and control groups and mortality rates, why are you bringing up this news item? Is it because you somehow believe it indicates the vaccine is causing people to die more often, than if they had not received it? I don't mean to sound dismissive or rude, and I'm trying to put this question in the most charitable light possible, but you do understand what it means to be "terminally ill", right? Perhaps ushering two parents through the terminally ill phase of their lives gives me a little insight you may not have. But terminally ill people, well, they die. It's sort of in the dictionary definition of the phrase. And yes, mild or moderate reactions to a vaccine can kill someone in this state. So can eating food, or a strong breeze, or taking the medication they need to stay alive, or even a slammed door. Again, before you can have a valid opinion about COVID vaccine deaths in terminally ill people, you have to know how many terminally ill people die with the vaccine, and how many die without it. Again, the article you quoted addresses that, Germany, for example, seems to get it. Do you? Again, that "learning tools" section of the VAERS website may help you. They are? According to who? What's your source? Because if your source is the VAERS database, or the Norwegian Health Ministry warning article, then, well, you don't have a source. Oh, I totally agree. Do you think I'm "people"? I try hard not to be. Or, to put it more accurately, I try hard to be biased towards sound scientific methods and understanding reality before I begin having opinions or trusting sources. I'm far from any sort of professional when it comes to virology or vaccine testing, but I did get an A grade in my college statistics class, and an A- in my symbolic logic class, which have been invaluable in helping me sort facts from crap in all walks of life. And when the difference between anecdotes and data finally became clear to me, I realized how much crap I used to believe was facts, was actually crap.

Sure, BUT there are is a known risk of severe side effects from mRNA vaccines. A search of VAERS shows there to be death and injury associated with the vaccine. The Norwegian Health Ministry released a warning regarding it. People have died as a result of being vaccinated. It's sad to see people picking and choosing when "underlying conditions" matter and when they don't, depending on their bias.

*sigh*. Ok, person0, let's quote directly from your link. So again, here's where ignorance about mortality and control groups and double-blind studies and whatnot, really do a number on someone's ability to understand what's truth and what isn't. No really - put 30,000 people in one room and give 'em the shot, put another 30,000 people in another room and don't give them any shot. Track everyone's health, symptoms, and deaths. The 30k unvaccinated folks have about the same amounts of deaths, syndromes, cancer, rotting teeth, erectile dysfunction, and cell phone reception as the 30k who got the shot. So when we hear that someone got the shot and died, we ask why, and we hear "yep, they were sick and at death's door already. Nothing to do with the vaccine." Can you understand that, person0?

Maybe guinea pigs were the guinea pigs?