Leaderboard

Popular Content

Showing content with the highest reputation on 08/29/22 in Posts

  1. CV75

    Portable temples?

    One thought that I have is that we believe in a literal gathering, and permanent temples comport with that idea. 2 Samuel 7 teaches that while the Lord was happy to walk in the portable tabernacle (vs. 6 - 9), it was now time to plant and build a people and a house to His name (vs. 10 - 13, 16, 18 - 19).
    3 points
  2. In the early years of the Restoration the city Zion was the center place and the stakes of Zion were meant to be sort of embassy-cities engineered and organized after the Zion pattern. Each of these stake cities was intended to have its own temple. Sites for Independence, Kirkland, Far West, and Adam-ondi-Ahman we’re all dedicated before the saints gathered to Nauvoo. I think it’s also worth observing that the Kirtland house of the Lord was the first meeting house in the modern Church. With this in mind, I can imagine stake centers getting add-ons for temple ordinances. The chapel would double as the Assembly Room, perhaps the restrooms on one side would have adjoining initiatory facilities, with a third hall/corridor for the instruction room, celestial room, and sealing room. Or a second story for temple ordinances excepting baptisms. For that scenario if there’s going to be a second baptismal font then it could be an add-on for the ground floor.
    3 points
  3. I recently started reading Saints volume 3. In it is the story of Heber J Grant, not yet the prophet, who is sent east to secure funding to keep the Church afloat. If he doesn't do it by the next day the Church may default on it's existing loans and it's financial future would go from bad to worse. All night he is stressed, worried and anxious about what to do. The next day he is miraculously able to secure the much needed funding. As I read that story the question came to mind concerning the necessity of the stress and worry he was feeling. Were these negative feelings a sign of a lack of faith on his part? Or are they normal or perhaps even purposeful among the completely faithful? Part of me says if he had had greater faith and was better prepared then he could have avoided all of that stress and worry. At least that seems to be what the doctrine implies. But another part of me says that if I don't feel stress and worry to some degree about something so serious of nature, regardless of my faith, that I'm being careless and perhaps even flippant in my approach. If it were just myself who experienced these feelings I would just chalk it up to my still growing faith. But when I see these feelings and emotions experienced by people of far greater faith it makes me wonder if there is a level of stress and worry attached to our fallen state that will simply not be overcome in this life? Even the Savior himself seemed to have been experiencing some of these feelings leading up to the garden experience. But perhaps I am comparing apples to oranges in this. So I guess another way of saying it is: Is stress, worry, and anxiety not always connected to our level of faith?
    2 points
  4. Alma, acting as the presiding high priest of the Nephite Church, was deeply distressed before receiving the joyous and transformative news from the angel that he was being given a mission from God (to disastrous consequences, but the angel didn't mention that part) in Alma 8:14-16: And it came to pass that while he was journeying thither, being weighed down with sorrow, wading through much tribulation and anguish of soul, because of the wickedness of the people who were in the city of Ammonihah, it came to pass while Alma was thus weighed down with sorrow, behold an angel of the Lord appeared unto him, saying: Blessed art thou, Alma; therefore, lift up thy head and rejoice, for thou hast great cause to rejoice; for thou hast been faithful in keeping the commandments of God from the time which thou receivedst thy first message from him. Behold, I am he that delivered it unto you. And behold, I am sent to command thee that thou return to the city of Ammonihah, and preach again unto the people of the city; yea, preach unto them. Yea, say unto them, except they repent the Lord God will destroy them. Joseph Smith was in tremendous distress, worry, pain, and anguish, both for his people and for himself, and was literally begging God to do something, when he received the first half of Section 121: O God, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place? How long shall thy hand be stayed, and thine eye, yea thy pure eye, behold from the eternal heavens the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants, and thine ear be penetrated with their cries? Yea, O Lord, how long shall they suffer these wrongs and unlawful oppressions, before thine heart shall be softened toward them, and thy bowels be moved with compassion toward them? As recounted in Acts 5, Peter and other apostles suffered humiliation before the corrupt Sanhedrin and counted themselves blessed for it: when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego spoke to the king in an attitude that the king interpreted as insolence, the result of which was the doubtless stressful knowledge that they were about to be burned alive: Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up. The Lord himself suffered unspeakable agonies of spirit in the garden of Gethsemane. I believe such stress is a necessary and even divinely appointed part of our spiritual education. It represents the growing pains of an immature spirit struggling to grow up, or of an adult spirit reacting to the inevitable sorrows of existence.
    2 points
  5. This strikes me as the same idea as the question of courage meaning one has no fear -- or is courage moving forward despite great fear? Which is, actually, more courageous? Because it strikes me that if one has no fear, it isn't actually courageous to act. My jumping in the deep end of the pool is not an act of courage. My 5-year-old doing the same is an act of tremendous courage. Faith in the face of stress and worry, seems to me, the same. Having great stress and worry is when faith becomes necessary, useful and meaningful.
    2 points
  6. But of course the temples don't exist only for the living. Perhaps a divine decision has been made that the interests of those awaiting baptism in the spirit world outweigh any benefits that might come from maintaining a certain level of sacrifice for the living to attend temples.
    2 points
  7. This has been thrown around as a proposal among the GAs (according to my area seventy). About a year ago, he gave a speech at our stake conference. He mentioned the idea of building modular temples that could be prefabricated and delivered to site. Local labor would be used to assemble the modules together. I began picturing the reality of such a structure. I had actually done something exactly like this for an industrial application. But the one thing I couldn't get around was the baptismal font. You'd have to dig a pit in just the right place and in the right way. Because of the special requirements for foundations, I couldn't quite figure out how that would be done. After the meeting was over, I went up to the rostrum to ask him about that issue. He said that currently it is only an idea. No one has actually fleshed it out yet. I told him I had already done most of the design work for something like this. But I just couldn't figure out how to deal with the font in the 15 min since his speech ended. So, who knows if it will become reality?
    2 points
  8. askandanswer

    Portable temples?

    We had a combined Branch meeting at church today to hear from the Temple President and his wife during both Sacrament meeting and Priesthood/Relief Society. From where I live, the temple of the Temple District of which I am a part of is more than 3,000 kilometers away. But our youth will not be going to this temples for their upcoming temple trip. They will be going to the Sydney temple which is almost 4,000 kilometers away because it is the only temple in Australia with patron accommodation. During his talk I reflected on the fact that the ancient Israelites had a portable temple that they packed up and carried around with them. Christ, when He was here, wandered the dusty roads of Israel going to the people. The apostles travel the world bringing the gospel to the people, as do tens of thousands of missionaries. Baptisms can be done anywhere where there is enough water and Priesthood ordinations can also be done anywhere. It seems like a lot of the gospel goes to where the people are, but at the moment, temples do not go to the people. People must come to the temple. What do you think are the pros and cons of having portable temples that could be packed onto a few trucks and be driven to anywhere where the saints are? Do you think this is a question that the brethren might have seriously considered? As we all know, its not the building itself that matters, its what happen inside the building that is important.
    1 point
  9. It's been a nice handful of decades for the Lord's people. We're not a roving bunch of refugees looking for a home. There was a big call to gather to Zion, and then the whole world seemed to quiet down enough, that it became safe and practical to just stay where we happened to be and build Zion wherever we happened to live at the time. It's often fun to speculate about God's plans for us, and how they may change over time based on our circumstances. I speculate that there won't be any portable temples unless we get some old-timey wandering-in-the-desert-esque stuff happening to us as a people. We're far from those times, although who knows if they may return. As things stand now, the whole world just seems to respect private property rights too dang much to make a portable temple necessary.
    1 point
  10. Mormon 9:27 O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him.
    1 point
  11. CV75

    Portable temples?

    I like the symbolism you described about permanence, physical/temporal and spiritual/eternal. I think those in "the mission field" have their own set of probations that warrant access to the temple without building one themselves, just as each successive generation in Utah sacrifices less for the building of physical temples, but faces other troubles equal in testing to that of their forbearers before they can rightly qualify to enter those temples. One of the blessings of building Zion is that the faithful can have access to resources of all kinds so they can do more than they might have otherwise done alone, and certainly more than their ancestors.
    1 point
  12. askandanswer

    Portable temples?

    The time certainly did come to plant and build a people and a house to His name. I think that with 167 temples we have certainly done that. The Lord has 167 houses to walk in.
    1 point
  13. Just_A_Guy

    Portable temples?

    I agree. There seems to be something a little incongruent about eternal covenants being made in a place that is theologically representative of the nexus between Heaven and earth, within a structure that is intended from the get-go to be temporary and transient. Additionally—and I recognize that what I’m saying is sort of a half-baked idea, but . . . I think temples are too accessible as it is. There were fewer than 3,000 members in Kirtland when they were commanded to build the temple there. I think we lose something, as a people, when we aren’t making extraordinary sacrifices to build a house to the Lord in our own localities. Obviously this creates a disparity between places where the church is long-established and already has a temple, versus places where it isn’t and doesn’t; and it’s always easy for us “haves” in Utah to speak condescendingly of the blessings of being a “have-not” out in the “mission field”. But even so, I’m not convinced that the central Salt Lake hierarchy sweeping in and drawing from its monumental store of assets in order to build a temple (whether permanent or temporary in nature) for the locals is the best thing for us, spiritually speaking.
    1 point
  14. CV75

    Covenant Before Birth?

    The fact that that there are many definitions to the word covenant, and you wish to discuss only one very specific definition does not cheapen any particular idea. Please share what you mean by covenant and how that brings up issues with premortal covenants, since the first estate is without a body of element and the second estate is the spirit connected with a body of element, which is ushered in with mortality -- a point of error in the OP. Please define what you understand or mean by "covenant" for the purposes of discussing your concern with false doctrine.
    1 point
  15. Vort

    Portable temples?

    I don't know that it's the case that the building of the temple doesn't matter, but only what goes on inside. On the contrary, the physical temple seemed to be a high priority to the Lord early in the Restoration, to the point that the revealed ordinances were to be shut down if the temple wasn't built, and at great sacrifice. The Israelite tabernacle was necessary for a purposefully nomadic people. Such is not the case with us. I heard talk ten or so years ago about the Brethren investigating something like a cruise ship made into a mobile temple. I can only assume that they decided the idea was not appropriate, at least for the moment. We have the means to build (small) temples at various spots around the world. That is the pattern that has been revealed to us, so I'm guessing that's the pattern we are expected to follow.
    1 point
  16. mikbone

    Portable temples?

    I think its a great Idea. Bring back the tabernacle. I’m sure that we have enough member that would be willing to travel, set up, staff, and disassemble the tent / portable structure (year long special service mission)? Logistics would be exciting and challenging. Couple 747s dedicated by Elder Uchtdorf no doubt. Couple of containers. Legal permits, passports. Do we buy land and dedicate it at each temporary site. Would be a great way to get into some countries. Also a great missionary tool and it would no doubt have a great presence. I have heard speculation that the BYU Jerusalem center was dedicated as a temple and that it was designed so that it could be easily converted to such.
    1 point
  17. I would say being clean is necessary but not sufficient. And indeed the atonement and gospel plan involve much more then simply cleansing. The Lord wants us to be people of strength and power, not just weak beings who must be continually cleansed. We must become holy.
    1 point
  18. james12

    The fate of Judas Iscariot

    Livy you may very well be right but we should also consider the other side of the matter. Take the quote you provided by Joseph Smith: I would ask: 1. Did Judas receive the Holy Ghost? 2. Did Judas have the heavens opened unto him and know God? 3. Did Judas start to repent? Additionally, we have a number of comments from prophets and apostles. You provided one quote from Elder McConkie but here is another which indicates more of his thought on the issue, "[Judas] was probably not a son of perdition in the sense of one who is damned forever, but in the sense that he was a son or follower of Satan in this life. (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1976), 1:765. See also McConkie, Mortal Messiah, 4:112–13.) And also from Joseph F. Smith:
    1 point
  19. mnn727

    Law of Consecration

    The Law of Consecration should be being lived by every endowed member.
    1 point
  20. It's like watching Jordan Peterson vs. Cathy Newman.
    0 points