THIRDpersonviewer

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Everything posted by THIRDpersonviewer

  1. For the record, any man who builds beliefs on anything other than the rock of God will be subject to doubt and to fear. They will be washed away in the storms. They will have no guide from God because they cannot fully trust Him. Our foundation is placed on the doctrine. Which is found in perfection in the Book of Mormon. The foundation is God and His laws. If we do not adhere to His law, then we do not receive the full possible blessings. We don't believe in a Church or a Book, but in God, or rather His Son Jesus Christ, because that is who He has ordained the Law upon which we Believe(3Nephi 11).
  2. It goes back to you making your case with science, which I don't agree with. It goes back to, well man says this happened. Well it doesn't match up with God's so I will believe man. That is what arises from Science, at least what I see. If it is used to make small proofs, that is fine. But when we start using it to replace God. Then you have committed heresy. You claim that the works of men are greater than God's. Maybe not outrightly or intentionally, but it is still done nonetheless. When Science and God conflict, I believe in God. How do you know that Aborigines were in Australia 40,000 years ago? By some process of science, that has developed some sort of logical proof. Then we throw out God because what makes "sense" doesn't match up 100% with what God has said. To think that our judgment and analysis is greater than God's and say that He is wrong based on our own works is a prideful argument and judgment. The last statement about the Book of Mormon, I see it as historically accurate as well as doctrinally pure. The historical accuracy comes as a by-product of the rest of the truth in it. My understanding and knowledge and experience is different from yours so I view it differently. I can totally see it happening, it meshes with the Bible.
  3. Real quick before I have to go, I agree with that last pargraph except the last sentence. The Salvation is not what we do but who we have. Could you elaborate? thanks Sorry I didn't read the rest of that post but that caught my eye. I have to go, but I'll be back in a couple of hours. It was fun talking.
  4. It is also like you mentioned in Acts 8:37. Belief is ultimately a qualificaation. I happened to also notice thatyour examples showed those who believed were also baptized.
  5. Matthew 28, I read as the disciples or apostles to Jesus. The ones of whom he gave authority to. I agree that the purpose is to confess and repent and receive forgiveness. We become a new person when we have changed our lives through repentance. Baptism seals the confession and repentance and forgiveness is one of the blessings of baptism. Yes baptism is for the believers who receive the good news, because the believers are the ones with faith. So if they believe, then they are want to baptized, because that is part of the good news. We don't have any recorded baptism by Jesus, but neither do we have one of Him being married either. It may not have been recorded for reasons that the Lord knows. I don't see "make disciples, baptizing them." Disciples are followers of Christ. Apostles are disciples and are the ones referred to as the 11 disciples or twelve disciples, depending. However, disciples are not always Apostles, of whom have the authority. There must be two witnesses at least, for a baptism. I couldn't find where it talks about time in Acts 2:41. Your're right about the full knowledge of the truth. No one has a FULL knowledge of the truth.(referring to men)
  6. John 3:5 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
  7. Could you tell me which scriptures. I do not ask it for proof, but I want to see what shaped your understanding. Because ours is different. This is what separates us from other churches(not completely). We believe that only men with authority given from God, can perform ordinances such as Baptism by water and fire(Holy Ghost). Given by laying on of hands by those who already have authority.
  8. What you say, is to suppose that the Earth wasn't reformed during the flood? Why could God not do what He wants to fulfill His own purposes? My opinion. The Earth was created with one land mass. Flood came. While under the water, God altered the face of the land. So they were seperated into two lands like we see today. They didn't start "moving" until the death of Christ. Then we have tectonic plates emerge and we get the current altering and earthquakes that we have. To my knowledge there is no mention of the Earth shaking(earthquakes) prior to His death.
  9. Did Noah have access to every bacteria, every plant, every type of rodent and so on.. I would venture a guess as no. Because of your argument about the Nephites and such. They were located in "one" geographical location. Therefore they would not have been able to get all the animals and plants. All the "evil" was wiped off the face of the Earth. How can man grow and expand if they are being eaten by dinosaaurs? In regards to the Mulekites and Jaredites, I wasn't saying they were the only ones that came over. I was implying that since other groups came over and we have a little record of them, there is entirely the possibility that others came over but we don't have a record. Those are probably the people that conquered the Lamanites(had to dwindle in unbelief) after the Nephites were destroyed. Mixing the DNA , "polluting the blood." 1500 years of pollution, what does that get you? Why didn't God inspire the plague? Also what was the time that the plague's origin was discovered. They learned how it spread while it was happening, but they didn't know the origin. You used this example, but it has no relevance(when you really think about it). Elder Nelson went into an operation room not knowing how to perform a procedure, but relied on the Lord to show him what to do. You don't have the source or process shown to me, for the manner in which they discovered the origin of the plague. How did they come up with the hypothesis? Wasn't it by thinking first? Then they pursue an idea based on how they were possibly enlightened. First seek to obtain the word, then seek to declare it. To do something, or to use an idea or hypothesis. It takes obtaining the word. Which comes by thinking, reading and analyisis. Then the answer comes as we pursue and exercise faith. After enough work, we have the answer. My speculation is by no means worthless. Speculation is opinion. Opinion doesn't always need to be backed up. Ever heard of a "gut feeling?" It often is backed up though, because it gives validity in "human eyes."
  10. Sorry, I shouldn't have put emphasis on mud. But what is not to suppose that they died in the flood?We know that there was possibility of a people coming over and mixing with the Lamanite seed. It was shown that was possible by Mulekites and Jaredites and so forth. So the DNA can change or be altered over time. Men's analysis is meant for proof. Just what I am doing now. Your doctor is not proving anything but that science can give insight to truth but cannot be the source of it. Which is why I don't believe it. I don't want a process, but a source. There is a process to tap the source but that is given to men, by the Holy Ghost. That is the process. What is science process. There is no source and the process is the thinking of men. Who are occasionally enlightened by God when he sees fit to enlighten them. There is a difference between proving and using. Truth is given to use, not to prove. But since I have already entered into speculation, then I have to prove my speculation which I am doing.
  11. The dinosaurs would have died in the flood. There are large concentrations of their bones which have been found in mud. I am only nineteen so my secular knowledge is lacking. I do not know the intricacies of forensic science nor do I understand DNA very well. If forensic science proves the DNA of a crime scene and a criminal match then that is sufficient evidence for men. It may be used because it uses the processes and analysis of men to make a judgment by men. Of whom the law abides with men. If the processes are proven "correct" by men to be used by men, then the laws of men may abide by their men's analysis.
  12. According to science. I don't agree with science much anymore. Not since I started studying the Gospel more. I am a physics major too. I took two years of it in high school, my favorite subject. Could whip out concepts and equations like they were nothing. Now I believe in God more and say His works and analysis of things is far greater and superior to science and the works of men. I don't believe in Evolution(fruit of science) because I do not see how it accounts for the Fall and for a terrestrial world among other things. There has to be death for evolution to occur. There was no death, pain or sickness on the Earth before the Fall. So no evolutionary processes would have begun before 4000 BC approximately. Not millions of years.
  13. Nephi's line was the covenant people. Sam being adopted into Nephi's line would have put him into the covenant so that he could have the full blessings of the Lord.
  14. I would like to expand on what I said earlier. The Bible and Book of Mormon are incomplete. The Bible had books removed(lost books) and all the mysteries of God are not stated. The Book of Mormon was not fully translated.(1/3 of gold plates were sealed and could not be read, might have been 2/3 but I can't remember). The reason for this is self-evident, God does not want man to have certain knowledge's because they are not ready for it. Therefore He just withholds them. (my interpretation of the reason) All the truth that we need for Salvation, is in the Bible and Book of Mormon. They are complete, yet they are incomplete. In reference to the eternities, ALL of the knowledge that exists is not contained in the two books. Therefore they are also incomplete in that respect. I agree with skalenfehl. The doctrine is infallible. We have what we need. But it just helps to understand(I feel) that not everything is there. It allows us to think for ourselves how it relates to us. It allows us to be directed by the Spirit.
  15. This a scripture from the Book of Mormon which Mitt Romney believes in. Alma 51:13-36 Your bibliography would be Book of Mormon. Also Moroni is the good guy.(A Mormon guy and leader over the military) it talks about how he got the people to fight and the end extreme of the battle/war. We hold this view here to be pretty sound in professing the beliefs of Mormons. 13 And it came to pass that when the men who were called king-men had heard that the Lamanites were coming down to battle against them, they were glad in their hearts; and they refused to take up arms, for they were so wroth with the chief judge, and also with the people of liberty, that they would not take up arms to defend their country. 14 And it came to pass that when Moroni saw this, and also saw that the Lamanites were coming into the borders of the land, he was exceedingly wroth because of the stubbornness of those people whom he had labored with so much diligence to preserve; yea, he was exceedingly wroth; his soul was filled with anger against them. 15 And it came to pass that he sent a petition, with the voice of the people, unto the governor of the land, desiring that he should read it, and give him (Moroni) power to compel those dissenters to defend their country or to put them to death. 16 For it was his first care to put an end to such contentions and dissensions among the people; for behold, this had been hitherto a cause of all their destruction. And it came to pass that it was granted according to the voice of the people. 17 And it came to pass that Moroni commanded that his army should go against those king-men, to pull down their pride and their nobility and level them with the earth, or they should take up arms and support the cause of liberty. 18 And it came to pass that the armies did march forth against them; and they did pull down their pride and their nobility, insomuch that as they did lift their weapons of war to fight against the men of Moroni they were hewn down and leveled to the earth. 19 And it came to pass that there were four thousand of those dissenters who were hewn down by the sword; and those of their leaders who were not slain in battle were taken and cast into prison, for there was no time for their trials at this period. 20 And the remainder of those dissenters, rather than be smitten down to the earth by the sword, yielded to the standard of liberty, and were compelled to hoist the title of liberty upon their towers, and in their cities, and to take up arms in defence of their country. 21 And thus Moroni put an end to those king-men, that there were not any known by the appellation of king-men; and thus he put an end to the stubbornness and the pride of those people who professed the blood of nobility; but they were brought down to humble themselves like unto their brethren, and to fight valiantly for their freedom from bondage. 22 Behold, it came to pass that while Moroni was thus breaking down the wars and contentions among his own people, and subjecting them to peace and civilization, and making regulations to prepare for war against the Lamanites, behold, the Lamanites had come into the land of Moroni, which was in the borders by the seashore. 23 And it came to pass that the Nephites were not sufficiently strong in the city of Moroni; therefore Amalickiah did drive them, slaying many. And it came to pass that Amalickiah took possession of the city, yea, possession of all their fortifications. 24 And those who fled out of the city of Moroni came to the city of Nephihah; and also the people of the city of Lehi gathered themselves together, and made preparations and were ready to receive the Lamanites to battle. 25 But it came to pass that Amalickiah would not suffer the Lamanites to go against the city of Nephihah to battle, but kept them down by the seashore, leaving men in every city to maintain and defend it. 26 And thus he went on, taking possession of many cities, the city of Nephihah, and the city of Lehi, and the city of Morianton, and the city of Omner, and the city of Gid, and the city of Mulek, all of which were on the east borders by the seashore. 27 And thus had the Lamanites obtained, by the cunning of Amalickiah, so many cities, by their numberless hosts, all of which were strongly fortified after the manner of the fortifications of Moroni; all of which afforded strongholds for the Lamanites. 28 And it came to pass that they marched to the borders of the land Bountiful, driving the Nephites before them and slaying many. 29 But it came to pass that they were met by Teancum, who had slain Morianton and had headed his people in his flight. 30 And it came to pass that he headed Amalickiah also, as he was marching forth with his numerous army that he might take possession of the land Bountiful, and also the land northward. 31 But behold he met with a disappointment by being repulsed by Teancum and his men, for they were great warriors; for every man of Teancum did exceed the Lamanites in their strength and in their skill of war, insomuch that they did gain advantage over the Lamanites. 32 And it came to pass that they did harass them, insomuch that they did slay them even until it was dark. And it came to pass that Teancum and his men did pitch their tents in the borders of the land Bountiful; and Amalickiah did pitch his tents in the borders on the beach by the seashore, and after this manner were they driven. 33 And it came to pass that when the night had come, Teancum and his servant stole forth and went out by night, and went into the camp of Amalickiah; and behold, sleep had overpowered them because of their much fatigue, which was caused by the labors and heat of the day. 34 And it came to pass that Teancum stole privily into the tent of the king, and put a javelin to his heart; and he did cause the death of the king immediately that he did not awake his servants. 35 And he returned again privily to his own camp, and behold, his men were asleep, and he awoke them and told them all the things that he had done. 36 And he caused that his armies should stand in readiness, lest the Lamanites had awakened and should come upon them. Also, certain measures such as the killing those who would not fight, I don't think is held by too many Mormons(like none). But yes we believe we are given freedom and thus must defend that gift and right. "Wherever there is injustice we'll be there. Whenever there is... line please?"- Three Amigos
  16. Our belief ultimately comes down to what God says. We know that He speaks to us through Jesus Christ and by the Power of the Holy Ghost. So ultimately, it comes down to getting in tune with the Spirit. That is how we know that the Book of Mormon is true. That is how we know the Bible is true. God speaks to us through the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost will speak to you as you read the Bible. It speaks as you read the Book of Mormon. There is a scripture I think in Galatians that talks about it.(chapter 2?) It speaks as feeling, sometimes as thought. Hope my last post was understandable.
  17. The Bible and the Book of Mormon are equal. They are the word of God. They are incomplete. Yet they are true. The Bible has inaccuracies based on the works and changes of men through multiple translations and copies. For what we believe, there is no inaccuracy in the Book of Mormon(as far as doctrine is concerned), because it was translated once, by the power of God. However, all knowledge was not revealed in the Book of Mormon. As to the Bible, it does not have all knowledge either. The same truths are taught in both. I think Mormons read the Book of Mormon is because it is easier, know there are not imperfections so is therefore "safer" from misinterpretation, and it is shorter. They also feel closer to it because they joined the Church because they know it is true. We do believe the Book of Mormon and the "Mormon" teachings to be true, because we have prayed about them, and received an answer from the Holy Ghost testifying that they are true. I personally read the Book of Mormon more, but I feel that there are so many wonderful doctrines in the Bible. I just get confused occasionally by the language. I like the New Testament a lot because it teaches "more directly" Christ's teachings but so does the Book of Mormon. I also love Paul's commentary on the Atonement. You hit the nail on the head. I have received divine revelation from God, which testifies of the truthfulness of both books. Of which I have already mentioned, the Holy Ghost testifies of the truth. The Bereans believed because as they were taught and read the Scriptures, they felt the Holy Ghost testify of the truth. It is not a one and done thing. As I read the Bible or Book of Mormon, I feel the Holy Ghost testify that it is true, everytime. I don't even pray anymore for it. It just happens, because the Holy Ghost testifies of the truth because it can't help it. It always testifies of truth. However, the reader also has to be prepared to listen or feel the Holy Ghost. That is often why at first we don't feel it testify of the truth. Also James 1:5 , wisdom is the act of using knowledge correctly. So a man may feel they know the answer but are not sure. Then they ask a question to see if their judgement based on what they feel is right. They will receive an answer so they can make a correct decision. Not to make the wrong choice. I go to Church because I know it is the right thing to do. I know it is right based on blessings and the Holy Ghost, which again testifies of all truth. I have knowledge, based on the Holy Ghost. But I continue to exercise my choice and so use wisdom to receive more blessings and protection.
  18. I agree, you are not being treated the best(far from it). Please forgive us. I guess Mormons feel offended by "anti-mormon crap" and when it is used then it must mean that the person using it is anti-mormon. We have been a persecuted people. I think that what happens is, we feel offense and then our minds think that isn't fair and we try to give perspective to the other person. All that is created is anger, frustration, lack of understanding, and sour and bitter feelings. It is a bad representation of the Church. Sometimes things will appear clear to us and not to you because we know and understand what we believe(for the most part) for a long time. We sometimes forget our own process of learning the same truths that you want to know. We forget the difficult road, and when something now seems very simple to us, might seem complicated to someone else. This is often the case. I feel that if people truly understand what "Mormonism" professes, then they would want to become Mormons themselves. Again, sorry for the inhospitality but hopefully we will try to understand your point of view in learning. Hopefully we will be able to teach by the Spirit.
  19. How? Or rather how'd we come to that conclusion. I know Brigham Young said it. I just sort of dismissed it as something I didn't need to know. I would like to see what he said. I know that is was something like Adam and Eve came from "Kolob" or some planet and God took them and brought them here. So they were created, organized, established(whatever your definition) just as we were here on this sphere, but on another planet. This wouldn't break from eternal principle. All things could then could be created in the same manner, ordained by law from before the foundations of the worlds. It makes sense, but I want to hear(see) it from the source which would be Brigham Young.
  20. You have very valid claims. To this I suggest: -READ The Scriptures yourself.(Most important) Forget all the claims made by people. They will not convince you to a point than you have already concluded. -You cannot read scriptures to take them literally in all cases, and vice versa. That is where you have to have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will impress upon you what is literal and what is not. Though the literal can often be used as a comparison to modern day examples. -The details are often disputed, but they are the key to defining some doctrines. To correctly interpret these doctrines, we have prophets. Then we go back to the source(scripture) to know for ourselves if it is true. If we cannot look to the scriptures and find the truth, then the assertions made by men are wrong. Again when they conflict, we go the prophet, or to the Spirit. If we are not given the answer, we become patient and wait for an answer, that with enough reading and prayer, we will know the truth. -The Bible is incomplete, but so is the Book of Mormon. The Church does not hold one over the other. We just know that there is inaccuracies in the Bible, which arise from the changes made by men. -The Prophet cannot restore the books because it is not the Lord's will at this time. What is a prophet? A man called of God for the administration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To act in authority and by His power for His name and to testify and proclaim to the world that He lives, because he has that power, authority and knowledge from God. -The Prophet, therefore, does not do his own will. He does the will of Jesus Christ, in whose name he has been called to administer His gospel to the world.
  21. There is no revelation on it. But we know certain things about God. We know some of His Laws and attributes. From this we can speculate. I agree speculation can be harmful. I think it very unwise to speculate, though you implied it would be necessary to speculate to give the answer. I did it because it would help clarify my original position. However, I should have just said "I don't know," but then I would have lost validity for my point, or argument. Since we know of what God can do, why can we not speculate in that regard(of what He can do)? Which is what I meant by, essentially, looking to the divinity of God. You're right, and I said this. "This is truly speculation on my part." There is no revelation on it(that I am aware of). "no man" does include me.
  22. It is also interesting to note that while that is a very logical and true pattern of knowledge. It should also be noted that we have to have each part along the pattern revealed by the Holy Ghost, for ourselves, if we are to know that the Doctrine and Covenants are true and so on. Otherwise we could have a missing link in the chain that will cause our apostasy if we get attacked at that absent link with sufficient pressure from the adversary. I do completely agree with you, though.
  23. I would say. God is. He can do what He wants. He has ALL power and ALL might and All dominion and All knowledge. So if the land mass was held together as one before the flood. Then during the flood while the whole Earth was covered, God changed the formations of the Earth. He separated the land mass for His purposes. This is evidenced by the fact that the Book of Mormon and the Church came to be, on this continent. How He did this. It would comparable to the Atonement in that we do not know in what "way" it was done, but we at the very least know that is was done according to the power of God. I know this isn't scientifically reasoned. But what is to go to the reaches of divinity to find the answer? Why must something be proven by the methods of men or make logical sense? Scientific process is to gain knowledge of what is, according to what men know.(which is flawed and imperfected) Religion is to gain knowledge of what is according, to what God knows.(which is everything) Meaning the sources of knowledge are different. This part is truly speculation on my part. I have another alternative, which I am working on. I haven't fully thought it out, neither has this been revealed to me, obviously so it is my opinion. My original post about the tectonic plates and such, I say is correct. It is a prophecy that would have had to come to pass as the time for the death of Christ has passed. The prophecy illuminates the fact that the earth fractured along plates and made mountains higher just like the India subcontinent plate is continually increasing the height of the Himalayas in general. It is in the scriptures, the Word of God. The prophecy was real and would have to be fulfilled. I feel impressed that it is right. It makes sense, to me any way.