THIRDpersonviewer

I did not watch the movie for a few reasons. The greatest and most important of these is, I felt like the movie portrays the Savior of mankind as a ragdoll that could be beaten and smitten without mercy and relinquishment. This disrespect for the tabernacle that housed the Redeemer, though it was in image, permeates to our lives. The influences around us affect us, whether we like it or not. My friends in high school weren't the best, but I noticed certain traits that I picked up from them. I never hung out with a lot of them but their influence was still there. When we subject ourselves to "R" rated material, the influence may not be immediately felt, but it opens a door to the adversary. Then he can know where to hit you with his "fiery darts." Also someone else mentioned that they "didn't particularly feel the Spirit." Well, ponder this. Do you think the Spirit will testify to the disrespect of The Messiah? He testifies of truth, of righteousness, and godliness. These "barbaric" acts are not conducive to the Spirit. Violence offends the Spirit. Whether it be in war, or whether it be the violence between individual bodies, or watching or playing video games or movies that invoke that contentious environment.

The contintental drift according to what I interpret in the scriptures did not occur until the death of Christ. Helaman 14:20-23 20 But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead. 21 Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid mass, shall be broken up; 22 Yea, they shall be rent in twain, and shall ever after be found in seams and in cracks, and in broken fragments upon the face of the whole earth, yea, both above the earth and beneath. 23 And behold, there shall be great tempests, and there shall be many mountains laid low, like unto a valley, and there shall be many places which are now called valleys which shall become mountains, whose height is great. It is suspected, by me, that the flood was the time of the separation of the one giant land mass, spoken of in the scriptures.

I have found that Elder Bruce R. McConkie's(who has been regarded as the greatest scriptorian of our time, by some.) works are extremely, doctrinally sound. His commentary's were written like a doctrinal background of the whole gospel because of his use in the scriptures. I read the scriptures, then moved towards these doctrinal commentaries to refine my understanding which helped me gain insight into how read with easy comprehension. I rarely use them now, not because I don't like them, but because I "know" how to read scriptures properly and can learn effectively. The scriptures are more direct and are of more benefit. lilered made an excellent point about using study aids. Because we are men and not perfect, we cannot often keep the word of God perfect, unless we use scripture. That is why we read scriptures, to find the mind, will, word and voice of the Lord and to find the power of God unto Salvation. This is the process I used to gain a greater understanding of the gospel. For the Record, The greatest commentator of the scriptures is the Holy Ghost. Pray for the Spirit to guide you as you read and the mysteries of God will unfold.(as you put the time and effort into it.)

I completely agree. By small and simple things are great things brought to pass.

I wasn't directing them at anyone, just where the conversation has been and where it was going. A thirdpersonview

For the record. Heavenly Mother has not been revealed to man by scripture for this very reason. Someone whom God loves and respects with all His being, would not "give" her to men to be talked about in lowly accounts. To debase or to insult. Men do it to Him. He does not want that for His wife I am sure. It has to come by personal revelation, which is not to be revealed to anyone.

I read it, based on "thoroughly," I felt no impression other than men are created in the likeness and image of spirit. Not in the way it has been irreverently talked about on other threads. Christ would appear to men in the same form that the Brother of Jared saw him. It is an eternal principle. All things created spiritual before physically.

For the record, the core base is the Godhead. If one does not have an understanding of the nature and kind of being God is, than he cannot progress to become like God. To become His heir and a joint-heir with Christ and all others who attain that glory. If one does not know who God the Father is, they cannot progress in the spiritual realm. This is the first fundamental principle learned, before all others. Not intelligences and matter, though they do have an important place. Just not now, because for us they have been done. We have moved past those phases in our progression. This is also why we cannot judge the placement of truths for this reason. They are subject to the interpretations of men. However all truths sum up to five letters. God Is. From that truth we progress. So the first would be, what is His nature and kind of being.

They have been in existence from before the world was. Another word for "create" would be organized or established. Abraham 3:22-25, Moses 3:5. 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air; 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; We were intelligences before we were organized into spirits. From this understanding, intelligences were from before our grasp of infinity. We cannot comprehend what originated, because it hasn't been given to us other than these scriptures(as far as I am aware, which isn't too much). So, to us intelligences are a self-existing principle of a certain degree of knowledge, or light. Matter is present, but has to be organized. So it was with this Earth, so it is with all things. In this sphere or realm, Jesus, under authority from God the Father, organized with the other noble and great ones this Earth. They took of already existing material that was "without form or void" and upon the "waters" of space. This material exists by nature of it's self, as far as we know.(because their existence goes before our comprehension) The first creation was light. That means certain Laws and certain truths and certain knowledges were established in this realm of creation. These Laws are ones necessary for the progress of man. So not the Laws that govern how Spirit children are created. That is just speculation. The Laws are given in the Scriptures and in the covenants(which I have not entered into all of). We do not need to know how they are created(because we cannot comprehend). We just need to know that they were established and that they exist. What their existence means in the eternal scheme of things.

I love reading Alma 7. 10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God. 11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people. 12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities. 13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me. 14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness. 15 Yea, I say unto you come and fear not, and lay aside every sin, which easily doth beset you, which doth bind you down to destruction, yea, come and go forth, and show unto your God that ye are willing to repent of your sins and enter into a covenant with him to keep his commandments, and witness it unto him this day by going into the waters of baptism. 16 And whosoever doeth this, and keepeth the commandments of God from thenceforth, the same will remember that I say unto him, yea, he will remember that I have said unto him, he shall have eternal life, according to the testimony of the Holy Spirit, which testifieth in me. 17 And now my beloved brethren, do you believe these things? Behold, I say unto you, yea, I know that ye believe them; and the way that I know that ye believe them is by the manifestation of the Spirit which is in me. And now because your faith is strong concerning that, yea, concerning the things which I have spoken, great is my joy. 18 For as I said unto you from the beginning, that I had much desire that ye were not in the state of dilemma like your brethren, even so I have found that my desires have been gratified. 19 For I perceive that ye are in the paths of righteousness; I perceive that ye are in the path which leads to the kingdom of God; yea, I perceive that ye are making his paths straight. 20 I perceive that it has been made known unto you, by the testimony of his word, that he cannot walk in crooked paths; neither doth he vary from that which he hath said; neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left, or from that which is right to that which is wrong; therefore, his course is one eternal round. 21 And he doth not dwell in unholy temples; neither can filthiness or anything which is unclean be received into the kingdom of God; therefore I say unto you the time shall come, yea, and it shall be at the last day, that he who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness. 22 And now my beloved brethren, I have said these things unto you that I might awaken you to a sense of your duty to God, that ye may walk blameless before him, that ye may walk after the holy order of God, after which ye have been received. 23 And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent in keeping the commandments of God at all times; asking for whatsoever things ye stand in need, both spiritual and temporal; always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive. 24 And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works. 25 And may the Lord bless you, and keep your garments spotless, that ye may at last be brought to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the holy prophets who have been ever since the world began, having your garments spotless even as their garments are spotless, in the kingdom of heaven to go no more out. 26 And now my beloved brethren, I have spoken these words unto you according to the Spirit which testifieth in me; and my soul doth exceedingly rejoice, because of the exceeding diligence and heed which ye have given unto my word. 27 And now, may the peace of God rest upon you, and upon your houses and lands, and upon your flocks and herds, and all that you possess, your women and your children, according to your faith and good works, from this time forth and forever. And thus I have spoken. Amen. I was just going to put in 10-16 but the rest is just so connected. Alma 5 is also very good. The doctrine is set forth so clearly and plainly. It is hard to misunderstand. He suffered the atonement so He would know how to succor His people. So He could loose the bands of death making immortality a reality. He made the possibility for Eternal Life a reality. He has thus set the terms and conditions of the Plan of Salvation into full force. He is our advocate. We truly works for us to achieve Exaltation. The intended gift of our Heavenly Father for all His children. It is our choice to accept the fullness of the Atonement. We have to exemplify that choice by our faith and works for the glory of God, not the glory of men. Philippians 2:11-12 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Here is another link to another devotional he gave, that I remembered. Distinguishes the difference in works and faith. It does have to be read very carefully, but it enhanced my understanding a lot. What Think Ye of Salvation by Grace?

You know, that is what Elder McConkie talks about(though not outrightly) in that devotional. "Jesus Christ and Him Crucified." "Jesus Christ and Him Crucified"

How does evolution account for the need of a fall? For evolution to take place there must be death to eliminate the "original" creation. Well the Earth was created in a terrestrial state where death and sickness and pain had no place on the Earth. With the Fall of Adam and his inherent dominion over all the Earth, death was brought to the world. So then begins time in the Earthly sense of our 6000 year history. Things evolve in the sense of natural selection at that point. However, that the processes of men have grown from an ape is absurd or all things came from a single amoeba or some rabbit is retarded. That is also the big issue with science. It is a process of man. The study of statistics can only look at and accurately predict things within the data set. So it is with science. Science therefore cannot accurately prove what happened 125,000,000 years ago or longer. The sun is 2 billion years, ithink that is what science says. Do we know the original properties of the sun. No, so we cannot predict how it will deteriorate. This is our issue with science. Man cannot prove the providences of God. That is what science attempts to do, and thus because it can't, they say there is no God. Science can prove, though often unintentionally, some principles of truth. For instance, the stars. There are obviously too many for us to count. God has even said that there are worlds without number. Science can be a testimony builder so I do not have anything against those that use it. And it is useful. But using science, and with the learning gained from the study, the fact that a God exists is refuted because the observers think or understand the material to contradict God's Presence.

How do you set up a link? sorry, I know it's off topic. I have a wonderful devotional by Elder McConkie that illustrates the Plan of Salvation so clearly. And therefore the need for the atonement and how we work towards receiving the gift into our hearts. And I just end up pasting the website and not giving it a link.

Well, I was just trying to get some focus onto the atonement and get some meaningful talk about it. I know it is hard to discuss a truth, because it is set in stone. But I was thinking along the lines of, if people post things they know then people will be able see it and reflect upon it, and see this great gift and hopefully have a greater appreciation for it. I also wanted to read some uplifting material.(sorry for the selfishness.) It is so deep and broad and all encompassing that there can often be many different understandings and beliefs, regarding the Atonement. The different understandings formulate from different levels of progression of knowledge that we have attained. I find that Paul speaks a lot on the atonement and how things relate to it.

I figure, it is just before Easter, we could have a good discussion on the atonement and Jesus Christ.

I agree but when we talk of "original sources," places we look to, to find truth. We speak of Scripture, Apostles and Prophets, and the Spirit(in direct manifestations). So President Monson stated truth, the word of God, God speaks to us in that way but it was stated by President Monson. Just as the scriptures state something. But it is still God speaking. I guess what I am saying is that it is understood that God is the speaker in the Book of Mormon(inherently), but the Book of Mormon is the unified source of validity to a person's own statements in conversations relating to the revealed word, or truth. So it would be referred to as the source and not God because that fact is an implication. The Bible works in the same way. Read that carefully, it is easy to be misinterpreted. That also is a signifier of the fact that it doesn't matter. Truth is not a delicate balance. It can easily be said without fear of contradiction, because it stands on its own as a self-existent principle. But in details, such as this, we start to draw in human analysis and don't let it stand on its own reason.

The problem with that whole argument is that your pointing out the specific grammatical errors(correct possession) in speaking in such tones. Those are the words of God. Does that mean a voice lifts them up off the page and speaks to me vocally? No. As the Book of Mormon states a truth, So does God.

I haven't thought much about it, so I am just spitting my view on this. Those who receive the Priesthood in this life, were ordained unto it in the pre-mortal existence. If I am not mistaken it says that somewhere in the Doctrine and Covenants.(someone might try reminding me, please? hehe) I would have to look it up. I know that doesn't explain really anything but it is something to think about.

I would also like to point out some quotes by Elder McConkie. "I believe in Christ; so come what may," -I Believe in Christ hymn. 134 "If we are to have faith like Enoch and Elijah, the we must believe what they believed. Know what they knew. And Live as they lived." -The Purifying Power of Gethsemane(last talk) "Enoch and Elijah obtained their great faith through righteousness."-Oscar McConkie(his father, actually but relevant)(Enoch and Elijah were translated people and had to have faith to attain that state) -Highlights from his life and teachings. (Biography on McConkie by Dennis B. Horne) "Now, our first obligation is to believe in Christ and accept him literally and completely and fully for what he is. We believe in Christ when we believe the doctrine he teaches, the words that he speaks, the message that he proclaims. When he came in the flesh as Mary's son, the account says that he "went about . . . preaching the gospel of the kingdom" (Matthew 9:35), meaning that his message was a revelation to people in that day of the plan of salvation, of the things that they had to do to overcome the world, to perfect their lives, and to qualify to go back with him to the presence of the everlasting Father. So, first of all, we believe in Christ. And the test as to whether we believe in him is whether we believe his words and whether we believe those whom he hath sent--the apostles and prophets of all the ages. And then, having believed, we have the obligation of conforming to the truths that we have thus learned. If we do conform we begin to grow in spiritual graces. We add to our faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge temperance and patience and godliness and all of the other attributes and characteristics that are written in the revelations (see 2 Peter 1:5*7). So step by step and degree by degree we begin to become like God our Heavenly Father. We do not work out our salvation in a moment; it doesn't come to us in an instant, suddenly. Gaining salvation is a process. Paul says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). To some members of the Church who had been baptized and who were on the course leading to eternal life, he said, "Now is our salvation nearer than when we believed" (Romans 13:11). That is, "We have made some progress along the straight and narrow path. We are going forward, and if we continue in that direction, eternal life will be our everlasting reward." "-Jesus Christ and Him Crucified - This is how I define belief. You know and believe something so firmly that you change your life to live in accordance with the truth.

For me, I have to be shown certain proof. I Have to know something without question. Otherwise I do not feel like wasting my time with it. After, studying I know I can learn what is right by the power of the Holy Ghost. That is the only "proof" needed and the only "proof" that can be given. If you feel it is not enough, then you begin walking sight. Meaning you cannot trust the providences of God, and must therefore look to other sources to know what is right. I used to ask myself, "why I believe?" This made me think. It made me think of the seriousness of what we do in this life. I used to study physics a lot in high school and it strengthened whatever testimony I had. Then as I began to learn more about the gospel, I just found(on a personal conviction) that I believe in science less and less. Taking a leap of faith is more rewarding than you can imagine. Now where do I stand in how deep I go. "I Believe in Christ; so come what may." I believe so firmly that Jesus is The Christ, that He will protect me, that I can go into the world and be oblivious to the workings of the world. I used to(when I first heard it) think that statement was so arrogant. I have it on an itunes playlist that runs on my laptop quite reguarly. Anyways, I would sing along and when I get there I would sometimes sing it, depending on how I felt. Sometimes I felt that way and other times I didn't want to be "arrogant." I noticed a decrease in the Spirit in my life if I didn't sing those words. It was like living in fear of what may happen to me, but when you truly Believe in Christ there is no need to worry. Now I always sing it when it comes along because I trust in Him so much, that this is how I feel. Besides, why not go to the perfect source of truth, rather than the garbled message from the imperfections and pride of men(science)?

Sorry for my call out on rameumpton, it wasn't done in the best of spirits. I deleted the message. Sorry.

Sounds like 1 Nephi 3:7 The Lord provides a way but we have to do our part. Laman and Lemuel wouldn't have obeyed had it not been for the prodding of Nephi(and the angel).(in this instance). For the record, that is personal sacred text and should be viewed as if it is knowledge gained in the temple. Not to be spoken outside the temple walls. Your body is a temple also.

D&C 129 1-7 1 THERE are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones— 2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory. 4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. 5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand. 6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear— 7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message. I know that was your opinion, but I noticed the conversation between you and hemidakota and I figured this clarified what he was saying and what we know.

Examining both sides of any story is sometimes beneficial and sometimes it is not. In relation to the revealed word(anything testified by the power of the Holy Spirit). There is no need to examine a second source. Why? Because it is the only source of revelation from God. However in temporal or physical things, there is often more than one view. Speculation can have more than one view. So can opinions. However, when we deal with the truth, there is only truth. Truth is truth because it is truth. God reveals truth by revelation. He reveals by the power of the Holy Ghost. Why take a second look at a truth(for the purpose of knowing if it is really true) if you have been born witness that it is true? God does not lie.