THIRDpersonviewer

There is a place to stay, I am not sure of the price, called the Zion Mercantile. It is pretty much right across from the temple. My wife and I got married there, and it is the most beautiful temple imo! Like was said the view coming out looking over the mississippi is sobering and beautiful. Definitly go to Carthage so I'd recommend a car. I'd plan on spending a couple days there so you get to see everything, and go through the temple.

i gather you are a senior in high school based off your senoritis comment. I was in a similar situation. The big thing is taking time(a lot) to think about the consequences of what you are doing, and where you are headed in life. It took a lot of time, but I began to make the changes. I had a friend die my senior year, and made me really think about what I was doing, if I die today am I ready? stuff like that. Some things will jump start us. I began after that to really search the scriptures and find the truth. I wanted to know what I needed to change or if it was necessary. I was objective. I kept my bias out. I didn't care what I thought because after this life it wouldn't matter what I thought if God is real and He has really commanded these things. Nothing I said could change these things, so I had to figure it out. So I could put my life on the good course. If you begin to crave to know then you will be driven to act properly in order to find out. If you don't then you will continue the same path. This will help focus as well, but I have 2 things that increase focus. Challenges, and repetition. I improved my focus by putting 4 decently sized posterboards on my wall with a sheet of a 3 hole punched and ripped out lined paper in between. the big ones were in circle.One said Pray, one said Read Scriptures, one said Duty and Calling, and one said Focus, with the sheet of paper saying perfection. I used permanant markers to write these with different colors. I saw those every day. I put it on the wall across from where I sleep so I would see it when I got up.They helped remind me. I wasn't perfect every day at doing them. But I did improve and over time I would remember to do them, and my focus would increase. I would ask myself what I needed to focus on. It took time but it came. As far as challenges find something that makes you stretch. It can be something you are doing already. Maybe you need to try something new, cross stitch is something I am trying because my wife does it. It takes time patience and some thought to make sure I don't make a mess for myself. I also play video games and I found some games that really stretch me. Recently I was playing Age of Empires on hardest difficulty and it required all my attention and focus to beat it. That type of activity increased my focus in general which carried over into more important things like work and study. So finding challenges help a lot in my experience.

One of the biggest helps to me is learning to recognize the Spirit. What helped me a lot were 2 things. One reading scriptures. They always bring the Spirit. D&C 68:4. Two, Read Preach My Gospel about recognizing the Spirit. If you were are trying to honestly learn to recognize the Spirit, then over time you will begin to recognize consistent messages from God. The other thing is praying frequently and pondering throughout the day for the ability to recognize the Spirit. I promise that if you do those things, then you will recognize the Spirit and the increase in confidence in recognizing it will further increase the ability to recognize the Spirit. This is my experience.

I can't think of a what he said, but there was a englishman who was converted in his 70's. He would make comments about what he felt, he was educated and took a few years of studying the gospel to decide that is was right. He would also talk and teach about things that just made me feel that it was a different way of thinking of things yet it brought me closer to Christ. I also grew up in the south and I went with missionaries to teach lessons and so forth. As I went one of the great blessings was to hear the testimonies of these good Christians, and their testimonies were different for one reason or another. It helped me appreciate others, their situations, and the love they have for God. It inspired me to go forth and live the Gospel better myself. That is the big thing to me. Elderly people often have lots of experience and the fact that they have the faith and the desire to live the Gospel amidst all the knowledge they had. That they could tell definitively that the Gospel was the only life they wanted, that inspires me to live better. I am strengthened by seeing Christ working in them. I believe those are extraordinary blessings, and some which I am eternally grateful for.

There has to be a mutual understanding that people will disagree. The reasons will vary. Semantics will be one. Disagreement on principle another. Misunderstandings arise from anywhere. Other things as well. So, civility is a must otherwise there will be no learning and the conversation was a waste of time. I'd say the biggest thing is be patient, make an honest effort to understand. If there was a misunderstanding then there is no possible way to agree or even disagree intelligently, only ignorantly. So, do what you can to understand. Once understood, take time to evaluate whether it lines up with your principles or not. And then you decide to agree or disagree. Everyone disagrees with someone at some point. Understanding that people have agency to choose what they want to believe is at the root of respecting other peoples opinion. I don't often care that people believe something different than I do. What does make me angry is when people are ignorant. And I mean willfully of course. They say oh I'll vote for this person. I say why? oh because she's female. and? oh she campaigned. and? what do you mean "and"? To me, I ask why did you vote. For all we know it could have been a serial killer. They assume because of certain characteristics, they must be good. They willfully chose not to study anything about the candidates, and thought that person was good based on gender. Others is their appearance(lipstick, pants), skin color, education(He went to michigan I am not voting because I went to Ohio state), state, etc. If their decision didn't affect my life then no worries. However since it might or it does, then it annoys me. Otherwise I find I learn from everyone else and that helps me value my relationship with them. Even if I disagree.

You also have to look at the context. A lot of the times we a can take a sentence or phrase and ponder on it too much and it just sounds awful by itself. Also, you should read other sermons by Joseph Smith. You'll find that he is VERY BOLD! He proposes a challenge to the whole world to prove him wrong. He will call upon learned men to refute what he teaches. When he know something, he will say it and is not afraid in the least bit. The context of this section suggest a similar thing. He talks about how he is persecuted. Right before this he is challenging, with very strong language, the persecutors. He begins to explain why, which is the part you quoted. To me it sounds like yes it is what he has done, but obvious to him God has helped him. However in the mind of a persecutor they do not think of God. Thus he is presenting the challenge between himself and the persecutors, knowing full well his guide and aid is God. Here is the challenge in my own words. I built up this church, and you think you can take me down? This church has been kept together unlike the other mighty apostles and prophets! and you think you will take me down? Forget it, laughable. My people know me and what I do. I am in good people, they are virtuous people. I love it when I face this. I have kept a record these three years. I cannot be accused, for if it does. It will fail!. Yeah he talks about himself, but judging off what he said I suspect that it is implied that he knew God was behind him, God was doing the work. But he is the one under attack, so the challenge goes between the him and the persecutors. Does that make sense? Does that help? Also I agree with Pam, and LM makes a good point to remember that prophets were not perfect. Though in this one I just see the powerful, bold Joseph challenging the world and its wickedness to fight and fail. Just a little weakness in speech and conveying that. Also Joseph says just before that, "God is in the still small voice." Do you feel the peace?

Your newtonian principles example is an example of a perception of the laws of nature. We undersatnd gravity to work following an equation v^2=V0^2+2ax(others as well but this one is simple to type). Like you said it is at high altitudes(way in outer space) this equation breaks down or at very very small distances(quantum level), as well as near speed of light. That is why New theories and hpotheses have been developed or are in process of being developed. Science grows and changes because current science is only a current understanding with a method to gain more understanding closer to the truth. Your comment that scientific principles change, is just because we do not understand everything and as we grow then we find true principles that do not change. I am not familiar with economics, but a little politics I am. politics changes based on changes with time, location and other factors. At the end of the day there is no set strategy that will always win. History of a video game. Age of Empires when originally played online there was strategy A that worked to win. That was countered with strategy B, which was countered with strategy C. Strategy A was a counter to C. So it goes in a circle and the strategies have success based on the situation. Not by any constant principle such as truth. Science in the purest form possible, which we will never know in this life, operates as a constant. You will always be able to rely on it just as we rely on the truths of the Gospel. We do not worry that the principles change. Forgive me if this is a little scatter brain or doesnt make sense. I am really tired right now.

makes sense, I guess I wouldn't consider those fanatical people as honest seekers of truth, but hypocrites and liars before God who claim the truth but don't really understand it. Thus they justify their murderous actions like you said. They are like the pharisees and others of Christ's day.

hello! I havent read all your posts in your discussion but I just wanted to post based off what I read in the last 2 posts. I gathered that seminarysnoozer is helping us understand that the most important learning is how to be Godlike. The way to do this is not by acquiring facts and data as was suggested, but to actually use the knowledge gained. I totally agree. I gather from traveler, that we must seek truth. Truth is the only thing that will bring us to God. The truth will always exist whether someone believes it or not. Those who truly grow in truth are only those who seek it. Not those who seek partial truths or other data and information. I agree as well. To me those sound awfully similar and are complementary. Truth is the important learning that seminarysnoozer is talking about that leads to being like God. And the only way to learn truth is if it is sought directly and not just partial truths. They must seek pure unadulterated truths. Seek with the right reason. The difference I've noticed in the dialogue is what areas of truth should be studied. Largely Gospel, anything you get your hands on, or anything that avoids the Gospel, or anything you get your hands on but priority goes to the Gospel. These are the different approaches that I can think of off the top of my head. The last one being my approach. I might mention that even though we are to learn all truth. It will not all be learned in this life. We learned much before, we learn a lot here, and we learn more after. What we learn here has certain knowledge that is more important than others for this life. There are others that are important also but not as applicable to this life as it will after. I am a science guy. Science is truth. Not saving truth. It is not essential in this life. It is essential after this life(in addition to what is essential now). This life the important truths to learn are the Gospel ones, and some of the others if we can, have time, want to, or expected(on individual basis, i.e. building talents). Thus I say all learning about truth is advantageous, just in the right time and season, and also for the right reason as Traveler has taught. sound good?

To paw722, answers come with time. As long as you keep studying day in and day out you're answers will come. Also, if you avoid opinions but actually find scriptures for your answers then it is easier to pray and get confirmation of your answers. I also have used a cd "LDS scriptures," which will give you every single reference to the word you search. This makes it easy when reading a talk by an apostle and a prophet to find scripture references. Every online reference system I've used has been nothing like this. It gives some verses and they are often just popular verses. Opinions will not save but only the truth of God. You must have that as the attitude in your heart. "What is the truth?"

Here are a couple of verses that have had a great influence on my life. Jacob 2:8 D&C 19:23 Alma 7:11-13 There are others but I feel this is a good start. I feel your feelings. It is hard to overcome. The key is doing everything you can to feel the Spirit. Every opportunity you can. Advancing in the Priesthood gives you more opportunity to exercise faith, serve, and develop a relationship with God. This will help you feel the Spirit more. Like someone said, don't save yourself, but have faith in Christ. Believe in Him and you will be fine. One way to look at your interview. You have had been told by a representative of Jesus Christ that you are ready to move on and serve in the Priesthood. We all have mistakes, regrets, and so forth. However, if you dwell on them then you not be able to move on. Therefore look for the light. What is the good. I know and testify that in every dark situation you may be in that there is light somewhere there. You just have to look for it.

Ultimately she needs to talk to a bishop. My opinion is she made a mistake yes, but there are a whole host of teenagers(people with the understanding of teenagers included), that make mistakes and talk to a bishop and aren't excommunicated or even disfellowshipped. So my thinking is the bishop will work with her to help her feel forgiven. but that is just my opinion, no matter what happens she needs to talk to a bishop to move forward.

I feel there is absolutely noting to worry about when I cry bearing a testimony. I must admit it occurs during the times in my life when I start talking about something that really means something to me and I want share whatever it is. The tears just come and there is nothing I can do. If I try and stop the tears I often stop the free expression of gratitude and love that I was trying to express. The scriptures talk about not being ashamed of Christ. If I cry when "man" thinks that it is not appropriate and then try to stop crying because of that pressure, then I have let the world interfere with my relationship and worship with God. I have put the world first. To me the meaning behind why I stopped crying is detrimental to my faith. The tears in those instances are a testimony of meaning, that my heart is touched. However there is the extreme where people just go up and cry, a pure emotional moment because they talk about something that affected them a lot. A passing of a loved one, a career lost job, even smaller things a failed test. And all the person is doing is telling their burden without bearing a testimony. Their tears aren't because of the Spirit but because of the struggle from the tragedy, the sadness that they feel. So there is no equating tears with the spirit. But it does occur together often. my 2 cents

i said that the church stopped doing baptisms for people. I meant that as when you go to the temple, people who have done the genealogical work for a person will submit a the person's name to the temple. The work can be done for the person. This name can come from anywhere. The church has stopped doing names in this situation. If those names are to be done today, just like j-dawg said it needs to be direct descendants or other well known people.

Yes, one who has not received the Gospel will have an opportunity to receive it in the spirit world. They cannot receive the ordinances such as baptism in the spirit world and that is why it is done by proxy here on earth. As regards to the resurrection, we will do as many baptisms and other ordianances as we can until the coming of Christ when there will be a resurrection for some people. The rest of the ordinances will be done in the millenium(around a 1000 years). at the end of the millenium when the work is done, then everyone who has not been resurrected yet, will be. The Church stopped baptizing jewish people from the holocaust out of respect to the wishes of a group of people. I can't remember if it was the jewish community in general, or the family of those dead who are also jewish, or whether it was certain branches of judaism. Everyone who accepts the gospel whether in this life or the next needs to be baptized.

I feel that was taken out of context, and the comment before. The example was one for over reasoning. In other words an example of an extreme in which people do something wrong. This is to illustrate what we have to beware of when engaging in empathy. That we can do some things in the name of empathy that go too far and commit sin or put us on a path the leads to sin. I would like to ask for those that would support this petition for empathy, to whom are they empathizing?

I agree. I applaud you and others who are empathetic in general and empathetic in that issue. What I was trying to do with that question was lead into the next. I try to be logical, i think that is how my brain works, I'm a science guy. So a+ b+ c= (a+b+c). :) That even suggests that the reason it might be important to you or me is not that it is important or direct in your or my life per se, but it is to bear one anothers burdens, and thus it becomes important to or I as it becomes a covenant keeping issue. However, we can't over reason some things. Just because we are trying to help someone return from smoking, doesn't mean that we should join them for a little while to help slow down their consumption. so there is a line that we have to find and it can vary from issue to issue. We just have to make sure we don't reach the point of sin(better yet tip-toeing the line) and turning away from the light we have.

I am just quoting yours because I read that idea awhile back but I dont know who said it or where and it's convenient here. I thought Bishop Eldridge gave a pray after he was released. To me that suggests that its not just a quorum of the seventy thing. he did pray right?

I think you make a good point. Sometimes it takes multiple times before something clicks the way it should. In that case, I see multiple letters or multiple people discussing with leaders this possibility as the way to have multiple opportunities for somones mind to be jogged a little bit. but that is my opinion. seems logical to me. i also think of Martin Luther. He individually nailed his theses to the door of the church. Then when people read them, he garnered the support of the people then the church had to make a decision whether to make changes, or reject it. When it was rejected, the reformation began. People fell away from the church. A petition becomes public and once rejected, people either accept that rejection or there will be those that hold a grudge and fall away because they don't understand why it was rejected and they get bitter about it. The persons logic may seem good to them but I'd say the apostles are in tune with what the Lord would have them do. They will see or understand things that the person petitioning doesn't, which can be why the person doesn't understand. This is, for me, another reason why this communication should individualized. Just done multiple times.

I don't see a problem with seeking change, in a certain context, and I don't see a problem with many letters being sent. What I see as an issue, is an organization or movement that develops for a group of people. To me it is no longer a simple matter of people expressing an opinion in the hopes of change. A danger arises for the group, that if the petition is rejected, then what? I'm sure there are many that go back to what they were doing, but there are some who will question. They will say but it doesn't make sense. They now have a group of people though that they know has sided with them and so they can get their support for other similar activities. These activities can become more aggressive and destructive and thus they start playing in satan's field. Approaching this matter is an individual thing. Like you said it is neither policy nor doctrine. So why is this important to people what happens? And if someone really does deem it important, I feel it is a private, individual issue. Not one that uses public support and forms the above group.

Ah yes, I did enjoy reading your story by the way! So even though you all wrote a letter every week, is it possible that he read the first letter and then he felt the inspiration right there? Meaning that even though you wrote many times, that all those times weren't necessary?

I understand that a petition is a simple letter in form. A petition though adds a backing of many many people. Why need so many people? It only takes one mention of something to plant the idea and recieve inspiration. A simple letter meaning one person writes and the idea gets across and then the inspiration comes. So that was what I was asking. Why have so many people back the letter/petition, when you can just have one person write it and send it?

im just curious, why does it have to be a petition? Why not a simple letter? Petition is designed to force change. A letter would plant in the mind, then the Apostles can be inspired to make a change because they feel the suggestion is the will of the Lord. right? this would fit with someone who mentioned earlier that only until they suggested to their mission president the idea of opening an area, did the mission president feel inspired to do so.

Sorry, I was curious to know those things from steve because I had not heard this before. In fact my understanding of the adam god theory is that Brigham Youngs words have been taken out of context and manipulated by apostates and other people who fight against God. I've read the text, which is where this theory comes from, a long time ago myself and saw for myself that his words did not mean what people claimed it meant. So in my mind if I could get evidence from him, then it shows that there is a place at the least to look it up for myself.

I just wanted to know when the Adam God Theory was in the temple ceremony, how was it explained in the ceremony, and what part of the ceremony was it given? Also about the differing parts of history. For me, just because I don't give it my attention that much, doesn't mean I've rejected it. I just haven't had the time to move from what I am currently studying. I accept the ones that I have taken time to study and pondered how they fit into the understanding that I already have. Sometimes though I need more information and more study before I figure that out. Such as comments by Brigham Young about the creation, I have only studied briefly about it, but I believe what was taught ties in somehow someway, and if I understand it good, if not then I need a higher understanding through more study and effort, which may come in this life or the next. Nothing to do with whether i like or dislike something. The reality is that stuff is on the fringe of the framework. The message of the Gospel baptism repentance faith and so on, that stuff is the bulk of the framework so why not focus on that. That is all I need to get through this life. just my thoughts, and I would really like my three questions answered it is quite interesting.