THIRDpersonviewer

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  1. oh sorry, i missed that line. I also had a cracked vertabrae from playing football, and the symptoms were similar(though the cause is obviously different), numbness particularly down my left leg, couldn't move my body in bed(had to turn on my side by using my arms and pulling my hips so it wouldn't hurt as bad), times when I could only move literally one inch forward at a time when I was walking, and I was incontinent. I did physical therapy to strengthen my muscles in my back and my core. When I did this the nerves, which were pinched, were alleviated. And my pain went down considerably until my back eventually healed during my mission.

    I also had slight "muscle scoliosis" which was the result of me working out one side of my body a little two much and it pulled my spine out of alignment because the muscles were tighter.

    What is the degree of the scoliosis 45 degrees? ACA - Scoliosis

    Obviously you know the situation best but you could also find a new chiropractor to get a second opinion. Maybe he'd be willing to do spinal manipulation and work on muscle therapy. But as on the website if it's more than 45 degrees your more than likely going to be recommended for surgery.

    As far as talking to the doctor, as long as you are up front with him wiith everything he is much less likely to have an issue with you calling him, if any. Tell him you were talking with a member who he had helped and she told you to call him specifically. I think at that point it isn't so much you've overstepped bounds but the member who gave you the suggestion. You are just following what you were told.

    Best of luck to you! Back pain is no fun, and it sounds like she needs help, but I think she is gonna get what she needs.


  2. Have you tried a chiropractor? I've had hip problems and then I got adjusted, but I was told because my muscles were so tight above my right hip that I needed some muscle therapy to strengthen the left side. If I didn't strengthen my left side my tight muscles would pull my right hip up.

    Because of money, I never went back and that has happened. I also have noticed pain in my left knee because my left leg takes more impact when I walk run or jump.

    I personally think that it is best to try the least invasive measures as much as possible. This would be one, and from what you described, be one I think would help. Surgery might make it so there is no chance for children but this would make it possible.


  3. The culture is more related to traditions which can be area imposed. For instance, when I was in the MTC we were asked to have elders give opening prayers and then sisters can give closing prayers. I was told the reason was because the Priesthood needs to start the meeting.(I wasn't told this by the branch presidency, but my prior zone leaders) That didn't jive with me because growing up we always had sisters give the opening prayers. So, I think some things get thrown around in the church without any real backing.

    People need to go to the basics and pretend they don't know anything like a child, and then try and learn from the ground up and have real sources for what they are doing. Then when the Spirit is telling you something individually as opposed to what the general church body has been told in the past you will know the difference and be able to tell people the truth instead of making it up, or perpetuating myths in the church. I've tried to do this at times. And also ask people who have a lot more experience where some of these things come from. It really helps learn a better way to approach things.

    Another thing, is why do people generally take the Sacrament with the right hand, or Deacons use the right hand and keep that arm at a 90 degree angle? I don't know the answers to these so if someone has an answer taht would help a lot.


  4. Teaching is actually a Priesthood duty. Priests have a duty to preach the Gospel. Most priests I don't think understand that, but they still have that responsibility.

    As far as the role of the Priesthood. It is to preside in administering the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the people of the world. Teaching, ordinances, and service all are ways it is administered.


  5. To the issue of D&C 130 and Lectures, I find no issue harmonizing the two personally. I believe both equally. Maybe D&C just a little more but that would simply be because it is canonized. Not because it is more true. This means that I try to give more attention to the canon, but whenever I am trying to study specifically about faith, I almost always go to Lectures first because it is a lot clearer for me, but I still study the canon.


  6. I'm sorry if I said something that was offensive, I just had a couple ideas that came to mind as I read through various posts in the thread. I hadn't read all of the posts and but I felt like the ideas hadn't been expressed or if they had been that maybe it was something not explicitly said. I didn't really have much to contribute other than to throw in the idea and a small locgical thought process. So sorry about how I came across.

    As far as my chemistry example the reason I used that one specifically was because that was me 5 years ago. I love physics and I was having to sit in a general chemistry class my first year in college and it was at a time in my life when true principles just clicked in my mind. I was beginning to grow in my testimony and I was hungry in a way that I haven't been since. When I was in this chemistry class it didn't click, though physics would click for me. So, it was my belief that chemistry was a farce. It was not true. I didn't believe it. I subsequently got a D and nothing made sense. I go on my mission and I learn to open my mind to things a lot more. I come home retake the class and get a B and I felt like things clicked, the difference was this. I believed that I needed to do well, so that got me putting forth more effort. That effort was enough for me to experiment on the word, if you will, and I got good results and then I said to myself, "you know this isn't that bad, things make sense." I then believed it and then I studied not to get a grade but to learn.

    That was the point behind the Lectures comment, If I believe it then I study it. When I study I learn. When I learn and then apply it to my life, I am generally happy though sometimes there are indeed saddening trials.

    Many, many other things I don't know because I choose not to study them. In this world with so much knowledge how do I choose what I want to study? It's simply what I believe is valuable to study. Some times I error, sometimes I don't.

    An example from my life, I spend way too much time studying football rosters and watching player movements and waiver wires on my fantasy football team. I spend probably an hour or two a day looking at this stuff. I'm choosing to study because right now I need something to feel like I'm being successful at something when I have various struggles right now. It's simply a choice that frankly I feel like I should do, but yet again feel is wasteful. Does this make me a wicked person for not studying the Gospel, or that I am not as good as I could be? I don't think so, I'm trying like I feel the people here are, just as much if not more than me.

    And I only said we lose the opportunity to learn from Lectures because people make a choice to discard them. Why? for the same readon I gave with my chemistry example. Not because it doesn't exist anymore.

    Please if something doesn't make sense just ask me. I hope people realize that I am not the most eloquent person here, and I am having trials that makes things hard for me keep my thoughts straight all the time(because I type slow and once I've typed a few words sometimes I just have to think about the idea). The last comment, I really can't believe that you would actually think that there are no more existing copies of Lectures? The copy and my home has disappeared? The only logical thing that I can think of then was that I was misunderstood.


  7. Well, no contact just means worrying about what you don't know. I would rather have them in the know talking to family a few minutes a day then constantly worrying about a family member, not knowing if a surgery went well or what ever is happening.

    As someone already said what is the point of worrying? Some people knowing that someone they know are going through surgery or multiple surgeries would make them dwell on the fact that they have surgery for two weeks and then they don't teach. Then a relative passes away and then you think about them for two or three weeks and then your girlfriend stops writing you for a month or two and the whole time you are panicking because you have no idea what is going on. Then she writes and dumps you and now you're sad for another month or two. Then your family decides to move and now you are worried you may never see your old friends again. Your Dad gets fired from his job after a week in the new city and you wonder how are you going to make it if you are relying on them for help, or when you get home. And I can go on and on and on.

    The list of distractions outside the mission is immense and even what I mentioned above can easily distract for a 1/4 of your mission if not more. This doesn't include the in-mission distractions. What about companions who don't do what they should, that are cruel, that look for every shortcut they can, that are insensitive in highly sensitive moments? What about areas that are struggling, that no one wants to talk to you, or maybe they will but it has to be about anything but the Gospel? What about members who don't support you, accuse you, blame you for their problems, who purposely sabotage things because they are offended and so on? Let me tell you the list goes on.

    What is learned then by obeying the rule to only communicate with family when allowed? It teaches you to trust the Lord. Trust that he is taking care of your family, that you find someone much better than your girlfriend, that you get into your school that you need to, that your testimony will grow in the Plan of Salvation as your loved one passes away, you also have more energy to handle the mission issues, you find greater success in overcoming those trials and thus comes great satisfaction as you see growth. At the beginning you might fail at a task, late in your mission you overcome, and you feel grateful for the growth and the help of our Heavenly Father. There are so many blessings just for following this one rule. Think of your other blessings for following other rules? They will truly be many. Even the seemingly insignifcant ones.

    Here's one, Lock your bike every single day. The first day I left my bike unlocked, three months into my mission, it was stolen. My mission, let me tell you was not a thieving place, it was EXTREMELY trustworthy. You could talk to a stranger at a bus stop and say I'm going to be back in 10 minutes can you watch this? Go away, get your food, come back, and nothing has been touched. It taught me how to trust other people. But yet I suffered the consequences of disobedience from my first act of disobedience to that rule.


  8. Joseph Smith said something to the effect that man is not damned for his belief but damned for his unbelief. Lectures on Faith helps me understand that comment further. It'd be better to believe the Lectures than to not believe it.

    Random example, if you do not believe chemistry is worth any value, then you will not take any time to study it. Same thing with Lectures. Then we lost the opportunity to learn principles regarding faith from Lectures.

    Read the first Lecture multiple times over and then when you understand the first half of that one then it should make sense why it is not a bad thing to believe the Lectures.

    First you have to believe my post.


  9. As I'm seeing for your question, the thing that needs to be addressed is what do you mean by angel? I think someone answered it. I believe Elder Holland gave a talk on angels a few conferences ago so that might also be helpful. I'm an angel to some people as are you to others. But I am a mortal. The D&C 129 also teaches what angels there are that are not mortal man. D&C 130 briefly teaches that angels will only minister to this Earth if they have lived or will live on the Earth.

    So if Adam was a spirit before this world, then came down was given a body lived here then died, was in the spirit world until Christ was resurrected, and since has a body; then his ministerings apart from being mortal on the earth could be classified as an angel because of the different things he has done but yet, he has had a body, also not had a body.

    Another interesting point, the hebrew word for angel also means messenger. Angels carry messages, whether it is one of love or comfort, or if it is verbally giving one, or serving or helping others demonstrating the capacity of our Heavenly Father to reach us and care for us.

    I'm also really tired right now so I am not reading back over this to see if the ideas are completed so if it doesn't make sense, just ask me what doesn't.


  10. I just realized, I had to work sundays after we were first married. I spent two months looking for a job and finally got one at wendys. They told me I'd work one sunday a month and theyd rotate me. I however ended up working every sunday. I could tell it wasn't good. I absolutely didnt want to. I worked nearly every day when I was there and when sundays rolled around I could tell I had less energy, things didnt seem to go right, I felt bad for working. But I didnt have a choice, unless I wanted to be fired. I eventually got a job at Chick-fil-A. Dont have to work sundays anymore.

    So, some might disagree with me. I felt like I didn't have a choice in leaving or staying. I don't think I was sinning, because my heart wasn't to get more money. It was so I didn't get fired. However, I definitly forfeited blessings. I will not work on sunday, and for me that involves choosing a profession where I do not have to work on Sunday. If I were to worship on another day maybe thats fine, but for me I found I never did it. So, just drop the whole question by avoding professions that lead to working on the Sabbath.


  11. Thank you THIRDpersonviewer for your thoughts and your willingness to address my question. I appreciate the last paragraph regarding following the spirit, because that truly can not be argued with. If a person was commanded by the Lord to work on the Sabbath, then I would agree. When the author commands we should follow.

    In relation to no prophets speaking specifying that it is against the Sabbath to play sports, this is what children are taught in the Strength of Youth pamphlet:

    "Sunday is not a day for shopping, recreation, or athletic events. Do not seek entertainment or make purchases on this day" ( emphasis added ).

    It seems pretty clear to me that our prophets have specified recreational activities and athletics events are not Sabbath activities.

    Thanks again for sharing.

    Sorry, I've been busy lately so I didn't get back. Yeah that looks clear to me.

    Here is what I personally feel about the Sabbath as far as keeping it.

    No TV, movies, video games, sports, shopping, internet surfing(including fantasy football/keeping up with the games for the day), and outdoor activities that are not leisurely, schoolwork, work, any hobbies of mine that were/are a weakness to be too time consuming. As far as doing, usually planning my week, home teaching, callings, spend time with family (depends on what it is because a lot can be done in the name of spending time with family), reviewing what was learned in church, church(I guess I was thinking that was a given), Study scriptures, Ponder scriptures, Talk to distant family/relatives, and see someone who needs it as needed.

    I came up with this from many different experiences in my life. It began with a lot of what my parents taught me and I just felt that was the way it was done. However, I still would do stuff like watch football games and sometimes play video games. As I gained a testimony though, I began to test out what was appropriate and what wasn't. Some things I had to cut out and it was hard. So I live the Sabbath the way I want to because of my testimony and what I know is most effective because of what the Spirit told me. Not because others told me so.

    Here is an interesting example. Before I went on my mission I felt so strongly about the Sabbath and no TV at all that my little brother who was 4 years younger wanted to watch a movie. I talked with him for awhile trying to persuade him to not watch any movies. Why? Because I didn't like the feeling in the home when the TV was on on Sundays. My mom was asked what she thought. She said her view on the moment, and it was that he could watch something if he wanted to. I then put my view out there. And I don't remember what happened after that. It is further interesting to note something about my mom that she would be happy living life without a TV, let alone using it on Sunday. I have since learned that she and my dad were particular about picking battles with my siblings. They understood that conceding to their children in certain things allowed them to pull more weight in bigger things. I think they were right. My point here is that even within a family there are differing views for differing reasons. My mom still had a restriction on the kind of movie that could be watched, but all in all we had differing levels of comfort for that which is appropriate. Leads to the dilemma of a family developing tolerance, which at the time I wasn't very tolerant and I still am not in some things. But that is a separate issue.

    I do sometimes go against some of these things, though it generally seems for what my mom did and for spending family time, or I have priorly invested too much time into something(ie fantasy football). I am weaker in living how I would like to and reviewing this might help me to live it better.

    As far as others living it though. Like I said in the prior post, I assume the Spirit either says it's okay, they haven't been told what to do by the Spirit regarding the matter, or they are blatantly disobeying because they are weak at that time or they just flat out don't want to do it. I generally give the benefit of the doubt though and go with the first two options.


  12. I also just saw "simply" accept...

    We should never just "simply" accept something. We have agency. We need to use it to think and develop ourselves. There is no such thing as blind obedience, at least where faith is involved. We should question but in healthy ways. Not to demean, put down, or extinguish faith, but to determine how to increase our faith. When we do not understand something, that doesn't mean that there is no answer and that the answers from the world are right. It just means that we aren't ready and it's probably because we are not focused on the still small voice enough. We pay more attention to the world and what they have to say. Professional athletes push out the crowd. They are focused on their jobs. So must we, but if e would rather hear the repeated cries from the world, then that is what we are going to hear.

    I accept the violent perspective as you put it, because it teaches me to be committed to the Lord and Him only, and that He does indeed love His children.


  13. This might sound a little different, but here is a thought to think about. What is the purpose behind the violence that we see in the scriptures? I feel it shows us His love.

    Whenever I read Mormon in the Book of Mormon(I've always wondered how to to say this without saying the Book of Mormon in the Book of Mormon. Inception level 2) I feel down in some ways and uplifted in others. It's gross how wicked and evil the people had become, and even in reading you can feel a switch in the people has they begin to head toward greater wickedness.

    So why does the Lord give us this account? Why hear about the wickedness? What can I learn to better help my life?

    Violence is almost always a jolt from the norm. Is it not? I don't see violence every day. I see the hustle and bustle of every day. On the rare occasion that I see violence in person, it brings feelings in me that generally help me think about things that are important. It helps me turn towards good things, generally. This is the case with most difficult situations we encounter. Lost jobs, lost loved ones, and so on. These things make us think about what is important which then helps us redirect our lives down a path with the important stuff guiding the way.

    We ask, then why the violence, why such cruelty to children and other innocent people? I think then you get to the age old question why do good things happen to bad people? My answer to that question deals with perspective. Obviously this is not THE answer as I am not authorized to make such a claim. However, I feel strongly about this and it does help me. The perspective of why bad things happen generally only focuses on this life. The reality is there is a vast eternity. What is the purpose of this life, do go through trials and learn to become like our Heavenly Father in that process. If children are hurt, abused, abandoned, and/or forced to pass on; then what have they lost? Nothing. They go on to live in the mansions of our Father, they receive the grace and power of the Atonement and are to be brought forth in a fullness of joy. A moment of pain that passes by and pales in comparison to the greatness and grandeur of everlasting happiness and joy! What wondrous love God has for His children! These shall have peace!

    It might be harder for people that have been alive longer, who are raped or abused or are victims of any kind, to be able for us to see God's love in something like that. When we are victims, it is simply said though not necessarily felt, that we have been affected by the choices of another. Those choices are outside our control. So, what is God's love in that? Again it comes from the beauty of the Plan of Salvation. We came here to endure trials, understanding that everyone including ourselves has agency. Those trials that come when we are victims help us to grow in a more Christlike way. If that is the purpose of this life and we knew these things would or could happen to us, then why do we complain when they happen to us? I'll tell you, simply because it sucks! Knowing these things doesn't make the feelings of pain, shame, or guilt any less real. However knowing these things can help us to get out these feelings. The knowledge points us to what we need to do to remove the evil feelings and fill the void with positive and uplifting feelings.

    To make this more clear, these types of trials can lead us to Christ, to give us pause to humble ourselves and realize that we forever need the mercy and love of our Savior. We might be doing well and doing everything we are supposed to and yet these horrible things may happen to us. Why? Abr 3:25 Will we continue to do what we are supposed to when all Hell breaks loose? Again we point to the purpose of this life.

    Without going on super long here, I'll just say that people who go through this stuff and never recover in this life, you might say what was the point then? Maybe it was a merciful way for the Lord to help the prepare the individual to receive it in the next? And now there comes a bunch of what ifs. You have to think, as our Prophets have taught us, there is a Law of Compensation. You have to think that the pain these people go through will be be compensated well more than they can believe in the next one. A lot more we could talk about but it seems to get more speculative in nature. I don't have their experience or teachings from Prophets to know definitivly.

    So back to your question should we accept violent perspectives. Yes. These perspectives are throughout all scripture except the New Testament(seems to be less than others). The Book of Mormon was written by a people that lived the Law of Moses and had much of the Old Testament through parts of Jeremiah. The Second Coming is not going to be a peaceful affair much. It will be for the faithful, but the Lord will not come as the Babe in a manger. He will come as the King of kings. He will come as a conquering Warrior.

    Back to one of my first ideas. The dramatics of war help us see clear black and white sides. The weapons are different though. Figure them out and use them and you will see the victories time and time again. Who do you choose? Who do you serve?


  14. So, I can see where the mixed messages can come from. This is what I think about it. If we look at those examples of sports players who chose not to play on the sabbath, one thing that I think can definitely been seen is their intent/desire to keep the Sabbath. That is wonderful for teaching youth and others the importance of the Sabbath. It's so important to individuals that they made this choice or sacrifice because of what they believed. I don't think it is saying that it is totally wrong to play on the Sabbath.

    As far as I am aware of, but please correct me if I'm wrong, no prophet has specifically said that it is against the Sabbath to play sports, and some of the other activities suggested in this thread. Here is something close from Preach My Gospel though, "We should refrain from shopping on the Sabbath and participating in other commercial and sporting activities that now commonly desecrate the Sabbath." Note the word "should," which indicates that it is probably ideal, but because of various circumstances we can participate in those activities. The Spirit should be guiding those decisions.

    If these individuals feel the Spirit telling them to play sports then we can look at the positives of what them playing means. It gives non-members an opportunity to see Mormons and for them to hopefully see good works in the public, the teammates hopefully have a good example when the entertainment world desperately needs them, and it allows us as members an opportunity to learn about the Sabbath more as we ponder and discuss the principle like we're doing.

    So, as said by pam i think, it isn't a black and white issue. We could have the same discussions about personal entertainment thru movies and games and books and so on. At what point are we as individuals keeping the Sabbath or not keeping it. It is something that we need to follow the Spirit and find out for ourselves what is appropriate, and hearing stories about sports and work give us ideas that we should personally test out and see if it is what the Lord wants us to do.

    I personally also think it contributes to desecrating the Sabbath when we are not willing to learn and grow in this way. Maybe for a period of time you feel its okay to watch tv, but then eventually you decide I could use my time more wisely. This type of change depends on what the Spirit tells an individual. However if we shut the Spirit out because we want to watch our sunday football, then I'd say we are hardening our heart and that leads to a loss of the Spirit and then we will never engage in activities that are really keeping the Sabbath day holy.

    Short and simple, we should follow the Spirit. Use examples given at church or conference as ideas for us to test. We should be active in improving the quality of our worship on the Sabbath as much as we can. As we do so we will be blessed the way the Lord wants to bless us and we will have nothing to be ashamed of or regret. As we teach, examples are to show that we are blessed when we make the effort to sacrifice and keep this commandment, not necessarily how to keep it.

    Sorry thats long and may not be clearly focused, but there are some ideas.


  15. That has to be real tough. The best advice I can give is seriously counseling. When people have long ingrained views like that, it either takes time from doing what's right for truth and reality to show itself. Or it takes someone who knows how to work through people's feelings and other personal views of themselves. So in the immediate time, i'd recommend counseling.

    Secondly, pray to know what you can do to help her with what she needs, whatever it is. Pray that her heart will be more open to counseling.

    Thirdly, go to your bishop and try and start seeing counseling yourself(he can help you financially if needed). You'll find help in being able to help her. It will also open her up to the idea if she sees it helping you.

    Best of luck to you! Have a good night!


  16. It's an Asian thing.

    You must be Filipino if... you walk around town with your arm draped around another person's shoulders of the same gender... and you're not a homosexual.

    Or...

    You must be Filipino if... you're a guy and you go to the bathroom as a group with other guys.

    Yeah Thai people do the same thing. I used to rarely show physical affection with anyone but after being in Thailand, I realized that it relieves a little stress, even if its from random people. I remember particularly near the end of my mission I was really stressed about the work, my companion, the branch; and there was the Elders Quorum President who came up behind me where I was sitting and he had a very soothing voice and he just rested his hand on my trapezium. When he rested his hand there and was talking to some people, I felt like I was getting the best massage I've ever had, I felt stress relieving, I felt much more at ease about what needed to get done, it was amazing! And all he did was rest his hand on my trap. He didn't squeeze, no pressure nothing, just pure contact and that was all. It taught me the great importance of being affectionate, showing to people in more ways than one that you care, and it can do wonders for those who are struggling and feel alone. The more more familiar you are with a person the more it relieves or if its been awhile. In this case I had been in the area a bit and knew I could trust this man. He was very spiritual and strong and helped so many people and that simple touch did wonders for me and taught me great lessons.

    As far as me expressing myself physically like that, to me its a healthy normal thing to do and nothing pervertish about it. But I still have a line. Obviously, the dude has to understand what Im doing. If he thinks im hitting on him or he's uncomfortable then I stay away. Likewise in return.

    To me it's a way to show I care, or to support someone and help them feel more at ease. I also do not show any physical affection like this to women. That's a line, so the above is strictly for men. I don't even embrace women closely except my wife.


  17. President Benson gave a talk in 1986 and he did say that we shouldnt watch rated R movies. That is more letter of the law.

    The Spirit of the law takes the bad material, which contributes to making it R, and avoid or minimize the exposure to the degrading material. That encompasses all movies regardless of rating.

    Here is the talk.

    https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/05/to-the-youth-of-the-noble-birthright.p22

    this is general conference edition


  18. Sorry, I havent read this thread, but have you been to counseling? If not Id highly recommend it!

    He was your life and He has now been torn away from you by his actions. You werent expecting it, and id suspect that you continue to talk to him because he was your life and you had not prepared yourself to fill your time and life with something else, so you revert to thinking and talking with him. Like addictions, if you do not fill the void with something constructive, then you revert back to the addiction.

    A counselor can help figure out what is going on, give you someone to talk to, and give you the opportunity figure out what to do to move on and be happy.


  19. Admittedly I was a little overzealous with that description(I was struggling to find the right words to express the sentiment that I was feeling), but I had some thoughts going through my mind and the feelings that Ive had in the past.

    Namely, Adam or Michael is first in the administration of the Priesthood as it relates to this Earth (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, not sure what page but it then mentions that Noah or Gabriel is number 2 in that administration). The feelings that Ive had as Ive read about his intelligence in Lectures, indicates a man who is acquainted with God. One that dwells in God's presence, though innocent as he is, must be living well too. When Adam fell, he expressed to satan every determination to be obedient to the law that he was given. That determination represents much of his character. The discipline, the faith, the trust. True knowledge is living and adhering to a law that is known. When we abide by the laws of the Gospel, then will God reveal more of that Law until one day we abide a Celestial Law perfectly. Then we are as Him.

    So, as I said in my inaccurate description, I'm responding in more of a high level of knowledge as opposed to the mightiest.

    How is a person's knowledge greater than the mightiest of prophets when in the beginning we know they didn't remember anything -- "all."

    I assume you mean when they were first on the Earth, just created? I'd say that he did initially have a vail by which he could not remember anything, but then the period of time in the garden is not specified. It seems from what is taught in Lectures that Adam gained knowledge sufficent to be able to know what to name the animals and I'd expect probably deeper relating to spiritual things. He knew enough to know in whose presence he was in.

    How also is one's knowledge greater than the mightiest if they did not know the difference between "good" and "evil" except with regard to the two commandments?

    I'd suggest that good and evil maybe better approached from the standpoint of feelings. What does it feel like to be evil, what does it feel like to be good? I'm sure we knew the differences before this life. Hence satan's host was cast out, because they were disobedient and they had decided they did not want to follow the plan. I've known various things in this life that are bad, but I fell short as our mortal weakness allows us to do, and I experienced the bad. When I was little I listened to my parents, I knew what was right. I had the good feelings that helped me know as well. If I knew right and therefore conversely knew the wrong, then why am I here? Before this life were there these feelings of pain and misery that we experience? I'd say no. We chose to abide the laws before this life. We thus possessed knowledge but not necessarily in the sense of feeling. The difference here now going through experience of pain and suffering and misery we have to learn how to master the body when we are subjected to these things. And once I have made my mistakes, can I overcome the evil and the feelings that are associated with it. What is so scary about touching a hot stove if it doesn't burn me? We have to overcome negative feelings in life. I know what evil, and misery feels like because of experience. I know good because I have lived properly and felt joy.

    What's my point? I suspect that Adam and Eve were taught commandments of love, patience, diligence and others before the fall, though it is not told us. He was taught a law and thus knew logically what right and wrong were, but he did not know the difference between good and evil in the sense of feeling.

    Why do I make this point of feeling? The Gospel is not a set of ideas that we just can bring forth from our minds, it is a feeling. You might remember spiritual experiences by the feeling you have, not necessarily the words. The Gospel is more about feeling. Empathy, compassion, love, kindness, comfort, mercy, virtue, and others(e.g. Galatians 5:22-23).

    The scriptures specify they would not have known joy or misery, nor sin without partaking of the fruit. If they were, in the garden (before partaken the fruit), without joy neither misery, both of which are apart of knowledge, how then would they be greater than the mightiest of prophets?

    I agree, this goes back to my feeling point above. They wouldn't have known those feelings until being here, because of the natural man and satan having access to us and tempting us.

    It is probably more so that after they partook, they also grew grace for grace until he became one of the mightiest after partaking.

    I agree. But I feel he also knew much much before he left the garden, I know the angel appearing when offering sacrifice, the angels teaching the plan of salvation, receiving the spirit and other ordinances suggest there was growth and ignorance to these things beforehand. The idea that if Christ came into the world and learned grace for grace then shouldn't Adam? What I have to say to both ideas, is that I feel he learned grace for grace in the Garden in the presence of our Father. And as to the growth afterwards, there were instructions that needed to be given which wasn't while in the garden. It was things that needed to be known, that it's like why teach someone how to be a king if they aren't of royal blood? Now say they get that blood then teach them but it does no good beforehand because the person cannot abide the laws or principles of being a king and have any real effect or meaning. (ex. I command my teammate to pass the ball. If I was coach and command that same player to pass the ball, in which case am I more likely to have an obedient response? My teammate might be like you aren't the boss of me, and shoots the ball. As my player he responds by passing because he doesn't want to get benched. In each case I give a command and am living as a coach lives, but unless I am actually THE coach, then it's pointless.)

    Ultimately, like I said I probably phrased my comment too strongly. He probably wasn't to that level(that I said) at the time of leaving the Garden. But I feel his knowledge had to be fairly extensive pertaining to spiritual things. That's largely based on the 2nd lecture. And my understanding of knowledge as abiding the law. So when he received commandments he wasnt like a rebellious child or teenager that might question or wonder if its something they should do, but rather he knew the source personally and obeyed, because even though he didn't know everything about what he was told or that it was new, he did know that it was right and that he would be blessed. That start for mortal probation is vastly different than most people in the world.

    That's a lot, Im not the best writer, so hopefully that made sense. That was good to make me think more fully about what I wrote. Ask me any question if it doesn't make sense.


  20. I do not pretend to be an expert in the history of canonization. Suffice to say that most Christians believe that God directed the process--making sure his book came together the way he wanted it to. I sense that some LDS hold a very dark view of how "the politics of man" may have corrupted the selection of writings.

    I do know that the Apocrypha was rejected by the Jewish authorities--and they are Jewish writings. So, as a Christian, I feel little need to defend their exclusion.

    haha ok that makes sense. I just recently learned about the canonizing myself so I've wondered how it's approached by others. For me I couldn't think of anything so when I saw this discussion, I just kinda said how I have been feeling lately. But that makes sense. Thank you!


  21. ok I need some help Im teaching the class chapter 17 on the Priesthood. so the priesthood is power Gods power which men grown in, most men dont realize the importantance of this power and how strong it can be. But as a woman who is single, no husband, no sons, I know she can get a Priesthood blessing as well, But if there is no priesthood around and a woman has faith her faith can do miracles too, womans faith grows in the use of the power of God, just like the Priesthood so how do u explain this when there might be new converts in the class or nonmembers why men hold the priesthood and woman dont? is it just as simple as God gives each sex different roles....???? Iguess Im confussed on how to explain this.....please help in simple words.....thank you.:eek:

    I don't think we know why men hold it and women don't. Many different speculations.

    Women do have faith, by faith are miracles brought to pass.

    Men have faith as well, by faith miracles are brought to pass.

    How does Priesthood work?

    God gives men authority to do certain things in His name (Meaning to represent Him).

    The Power of God will be manifest because of the faith that the man and/or woman who are associated with the blessing possess.(Meaning if neither have faith, then no miracle will be there.)

    So if Priesthood depends on faith, then what does it do?

    It gives special blessings from the Lord that He desires to give us, upon which there can be no other way to receive them. (Ordinances of Salvation)

    Other blessings may be received in another way, but the Priesthood allows people to exercise faith in a special way in that they come unto Christ through the Priesthood Holder. (Priesthood Blessings) The act of faith allows you to receive blessings that increase and strengthen the faith that was already possessed.

    Lastly there are administrative blessings which people receive for callings, which is to give the recipient authority to act in God's name for a particular area of service as well as all necessary blessings and abilities to fulfill that service.

    These blessings only come if you have faith. Didn't Mary Fielding Smith pray that her oxen would be healed and they were healed? Yes. God does not withhold blessings from us when we need them. However, when we have access to His authority, I feel He expects us to go the right channels. That is the first exercise in faith for the miracle to happen. The rest of the exercise in faith comes during and after as you believe during the blessing and then obey the counsel afterwards.

    These are some ideas that I thought would be helpful. Good Luck!


  22. Having been in the Baptist church in my old life :), I can attest that many of these types of Christians are not familar with the history of the Bible. If you brought up the notion of cannonization of the scriptures, they would not understand. Somehow they have the impression that God dictated the KJV and that was that! It is hard to reason with these individuals since they do not even understand the history of the book they are trying to defend!

    Yeah, this to me is like the end of all discussion. How in the world can an explanation of any sort be brought up for the idea that we cannot add or take away from the Bible when we analyze the history of its canonization?

    What about the Apochrypha? The Latin Vulgate had different books, so the KJV has taken away or added to that Bible. Wikipedia would give people the basics and enough for people to realize the Bible's are different.


  23. Lectures on Faith, Joseph Smith illustrates that the naming demonstrates that Adam was an intelligent person before the Fall. He learned from God in His presence. And that after the Fall Adam retained that knowledge as well.

    It helps diminish the idea that Adam was innocent like a child who knew things in the world as a toddler understands them. He definitely was innocent but his knowledge was probably as great if not greater than the mightiest prophets. I mean he was taught by God Himself.