THIRDpersonviewer
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Posts posted by THIRDpersonviewer
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I am simply sharing my own opinions and beliefs on the topic. Am I not allowed to do that on this message board? It takes two hands to clap and I can't see the benefit in having only a one-sided discussion. Don't you think examining both sides of any story is beneficial in learning and gaining knowledge?
Examining both sides of any story is sometimes beneficial and sometimes it is not. In relation to the revealed word(anything testified by the power of the Holy Spirit). There is no need to examine a second source. Why? Because it is the only source of revelation from God. However in temporal or physical things, there is often more than one view. Speculation can have more than one view. So can opinions. However, when we deal with the truth, there is only truth. Truth is truth because it is truth. God reveals truth by revelation. He reveals by the power of the Holy Ghost. Why take a second look at a truth(for the purpose of knowing if it is really true) if you have been born witness that it is true? God does not lie.
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If the LDS church quotes from the King Follett Discourse and views it as reliable then why shouldn't the rest of us? Can you show me where the LDS Church has officially denounced and rejected that sermon?
Is it the LDS Church or is it the members that view it as reliable? I think a lot of gospel scholars view it as reliable. But as official scriptural canon by the Church, it is not.
The LDS Church also doesn't go around denouncing every false doctrine or opinion or speculation. Has the Adam-God theory(probably shouldn't bring this up) been denounced? I don't think so, but it is largely understood to be false doctrine.
Again like I said though every word should not be taken literally. By and large part, all it clarifies(when looking at the principles) is our position in our progression to exaltation. This is done by exemplifying our need to undergo a process of gaining knowledge. I have some other posts that explain this, which I am not going to rewrite.
Those principles we know, but the details we don't. We don't know the origin of God.(How can we even comprehend infinities to there full infinite capacity if we are finite? We can comprehend certain aspects of it. but not all of it.) A specific opinion is given in the KFD. But the principle is that for men, to become Gods, we have to gain knowledge by principles and therefore become exalted and in this process we further exalt our Heavenly Father.
D&C 130:18-19
18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.
D&C 132:5
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
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I don't live in Utah but that is the type of thing that I hear about there in Utah.
I was just trying to make a distinction between individual choices and how they are separate from the church. I got the feeling that Solace might be connecting the actions of men with the Church, which is an institution. I wanted to help resolve any fears that might arise about the Church.(I just got a feeling that there might be.)
We learn of the truth independent of others. And so we live our lives independent of others. So no need to worry.
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If you really want to get technical, though, the only members of the true Church, in the truest sense, are the true followers of Christ. This means those living a Celestial Law. This Law is one that consists of living your life to glorify God. All your efforts, your faith and works, are not done for personal glory(Satan's plan) but for the glory of God.
Read the King Follett Discourse. The overall principle and message taught is we glorify God by progressing to exaltation. How is that done? By gaining knowledge and living in conformity to the truth to have more added light. How do we gain all knowledge, as God has all knowledge? Moroni 10:4-5
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
The key is REAL intent. Meaning when you receive the truth, YOU WILL DO WHAT IS REQUIRED, WITHOUT QUESTION, WITHOUT HESITANCE, WITHOUT PERSONAL DESIRE. The will of the Son was swallowed up in the will of the Father while He suffered the atonement. It is humility in the purest sense. Submission in all things to the will of the Father. We won't be perfect at it by any means, but we have to try. 2 Nephi 25:23
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
The more humble we become, the more truth can be bestowed. By the power of the Holy Ghost we may know the truth of ALL things. If we are 100% humble then we will gain ALL knowledge. That is God's law here. It is an eternal decree from the heavens established from before the foundation of the world. D&C 132:5
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
There is the scripture "the first shall be last and the last will be first," referring to the humble. This is how it is brought to pass. We will not be perfect, that is why we have the atonement. The atonement makes up for our shortcomings but only if we abide the law given for the blessing.(2 Nephi 25:23,26,29)
So back to King Follett. You glorify God by gaining knowledge and living the truth to the best of your ability.(Dallin H. Oaks- good, better, best). If you won't become humble then you won't be able to gain knowledge and you won't be able to glorify God to your capacity, which is Celestial Law.
1 Nephi 13:37
37 And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb; and whoso shall publish peace, yea, tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be.
Read "my Zion" as my glory. Realized that two nights ago, actually. Those are the members of His kingdom, of His Church.
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word up to that, a-train. This brings up an excellent point concerning the church. The church, the members and the truth are 3 separate points, or identities. There is truth. It is a self-existent principle which establishes law. The Church is here on this Earth to present and administer truth to the world.
This is where things get murky.
Members are not the church. Members are a group of individuals. Individuals with the right to choose. The choice to follow the church is to find the truth and live it. The more truth in your life the closer you are to the church and therefore to God. When people professing to be "Mormons" go around and do every manner of sin, they are not living the truth. Then those professing "Mormons" give the church a label when it shouldn't be. People will go and say, "Well I know this guy who is an active Mormon and he goes out and drinks every weekend, so that is what they believe." No. That is heresy(and hypocrisy) on the part of the "Mormon." That is why it is so important to live Christlike lives. So stand as witnesses of God at all times, in all things, and in all places.
To know the truth you go to revealed word which is, the Standard Works, the words of apostles and prophets, and, when comfortable, the words spoken by the Power of the Holy Ghost. I say comfortable, because there are times at church when I am too tired to listen carefully enough to receive it into my heart. You have to be wary, because members don't know all the truth. They might speak with good intentions but their words might have inaccuracies and false doctrines without them meaning to. Humans are not perfect. We all make mistakes.
I don't know if I came across clear. My point was:
The members of the church are NOT a representation of the Church. The Church is a representation of what the members OUGHT to be. The Church functions as the administrator of truth.
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Does any of this matter? Seeing the plates wouldn't make them the true word of God. It just means they exist. It proves nothing in the validity and claim of the Book of Mormon as the word of God. It is the word of God because it is the Word of God.
In reference to the DSS, there are those, even in the church, that walk by a fair amount of sight. The DSS scrolls, like the plates, prove nothing. It is just another way to weed out the unfaithful, for those that feel that there has to be physical evidence to make it true.
"For we walk by faith, not by sight:" -2 Corinthians 5:7
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A couple years ago, while I was in high school, our youth got together at the Bishop's house to read the Book of Mormon. I believe it was just after President Hinckley issued the Book of Mormon challenge. Anyways, I think we started reading about eight in the evening. I remember being excited, because I felt like I had never read the Book of Mormon all the way through, and now was my chance. That wasn't the case but that is how I felt.(I am a perfectionist) I still feel that way, actually. I couldn't wait.
So we started reading. We each read a page. I remember reading, and early on I can remember reading and there wasn't much there in terms of feeling the Spirit. I was never very good at discerning the Spirit(until recently), and so I read. There were like 15 of us I think, maybe less. We sat or laid down comfortably in a circle. I fell asleep from like 1 to 5 in the morning. I woke up and I woke back up and I remember has some people would come and go, but I stayed. I wanted to get through it. We got passed 3 Nephi.
I sadly don't remember listening to the words. I just felt impressed that if I got through the book I would know it was true. It was reading and somewhere in Mormon, I started to feel something. As we neared the end, the feeling grew. The feeling was definitely present. I can't really describe it. When we finished the Book of Mormon I felt peaceful.
Then when we were done, we said a prayer. I remember I said it. I rarely volunteer for prayers, but I felt impressed to for this one. I offered it and the sealing of truth from the Holy Ghost witnessed to me of the truthfulness of the book. Witnessed to me that what we had done was right. That we had pleased the Lord. The feeling was so strong. I can't truly describe it. It was an overwhelming power, peace, comfort, satisfaction. joy. I was hit with so much of it. Just as I am now.
Like I said, I don't remember any specific words but when I look back on experience. I see the growing feeling of the Spirit which I felt. It was always there but it worked in like an exponential progression of power. By no means was it easy but I received a reward for the diligence of the effort. D&C 132:5
This wasn't the first time(looking back), nor was it the last that I had received it. This was probably the strongest though. Took me a couple of months before I realized that I could then testify that it is true. I can say I know independently of any other person that it is true because I received the witness independent of others. And I now testify with every fiber of my soul that the Book of Mormon is true. It is the pure word of God. It is a witness of Christ, of whom I also testify. And I say things things in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
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People need to understand that those are not directly the words of Joseph Smith. It was recorded by four different men who came together and compared notes and came to a "unified text." The King Follett Discourse is one read in principle and not for details and specifics. The nature and kind of being God is. That is attained through the gaining of knowledge. Which is revealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Not by men.
When a prophet speaks by the Spirit. We still have to feel the Spirit testify of the truth. Otherwise we don't know, for ourselves, that they speak truth.
"I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves" -Joseph Smith
Edit: The text most likely has little error but it is not perfect. Taking it word for word literally is not a wise course of study.
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Yes the Trinity has 3 persons, but one essence. Isn't that why Jesus said," that God the Father and I are one, if you have seen me you have seen God the
Father, if they were different how could he say these things?
"I am one who is old enough to have grown up with the presence of Elder McConkie at all my youthful general conferences. He was blunt, he might have been one of the last of the "old fashioned" apostles as far as not being media conscious is concerned. He told it the way it was. I had his son for a religion class at BYU 2 decades ago, and have to say that Brother McConkie was the best religion teacher I ever had. If the son was like the father, then the father was certainly a heck of a guy." -from another thread,"Elder McConkie?"
I have heard on many other counts that the son was like the father. We know they are two seperate people but yet we say if we saw his son then we saw the father. It was even said in comparison of Elder Bruce R. McConkie to his father.
"If you've heard Bruce you've heard the father..." -Elder John. K Carmack
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We become saviors of mankind under Christ's direction and grace.
What do you mean? We will not be Saviors in the sense that Jesus was. We will not die and take up life again for the purpose of overcoming death for all mankind. That was already done and there is no more need for it to be done.
The three pillars of eternity, the creation, the fall, and the atonement each have been fulfilled. However, there are multiple creations and therefore multiple falls to go with those creations, because they were created terrestial(not subject to death, pain, or sin) That is what the fall brought in, but only one atonement was needed to redeem men. This is because it is infinite and eternal, and encompassed all the children of God the Father.
I guess what I am saying is, I don't understand how we can be saviors of mankind?
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Gaea,
You are asking good questions(thought-provoking). However, there are some things we don't know. Do we know all the specific dealings and workings of God. No. Why? Because He is an infinite and eternal being. The finite cannot comprehend infinity. For instance, We cannot comprehend worlds without number.
Some questions though, such as this, there is speculation as all men can think. But, the blunt answer is we don't know, and there is no need to know(at this time). It has no bearing on men working to salvation from this mortal probation(life on this Earth, subject to temptation).
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I was just curious has to how Elder McConkie is viewed here. There are those that greatly admire him, like me. Then there are those who hate him because of his usual blunt stand on things. If he isn't viewed in much light, then why?
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Become more closely intimate with the true doctrine of Jesus Christ. The way to do this is to study the scriptures. Pray for the Spirit to attend you as you read. Read with real intent. Pray with real intent. There is a devotional that I found highly enlightening.
<http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6141>
<http://www.byub.org/devotionals/?selectedMonth=9&selectedYear=1976>
The first link is to the written, the second is to the audio. "Jesus Christ and Him Crucified" This was a devotional by Elder McConkie and herein lies the plan of Salvation as clearly and crisply and boldly as any place I have ever heard it. From here you can develop a framework for studying the gospel. This was the first time that I had heard Elder McConkie speak and I was struck by how bold and how pure his words were. I knew he was a great scriptorian but his words were just pure diamond truth. I was drawn to the words. This was a man who spoke without a doubt by the Spirit. I was repulsed at times, by the boldness, as he was speaking but I just knew what he was saying was true. I couldn't reject it. This was last summer say, around August, and my testimony was considerably weak. I had very little knowledge as pertaining to the gospel. I instantly became drawn to nearly all words of Elder McConkie, because he taught the doctrine and did not mince words. So I learned to love the gospel.
The way to gaining a firm testimony is through faith and diligence in your study of the gospel. The truth will be revealed to you as you do what is required for that truth. D&C 132:5
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We ignore them. The critics will say what they will say. But as Elder McConkie would say, "The Caravan Moves On." Meaning the Church will move forward no matter what they do. It cannot be stopped.
We spend time and effort only as is necessary to establish truth. We do not need to debate opinions. Opinions have NO saving power. So why debate them? It is in the truth that salvation lies. Farms and apologetics aren't necessary but are a gracious effort and that is very kind-hearted and well-intentioned. By no means is reason useless. Rationality is reason. Irrationality is ignorance. We reason the Gospel like everything else but it can only be done in humility.
I have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise I could not boldly testify that Jesus is the Christ and He is the Son of the Living God, our Heavenly Father. He is the Redeemer of mankind and I know so firmly because I have exercised faith in His name and asked Him whether it is true. And it is. Now what about those who haven't, that is why we spread the gospel, that is why we talk about it. No persuasion is needed on our part. The Lord will bring the gospel to those who will accept it when they are ready.
There is no condescension, we are not better than them, we are not their judge. We can not go around persuading men to come unto Christ if we do not live Christlike lives. Now we are not perfect, but we must strive to be as perfect as possible. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." -Matt 5:48. When we accept into our hearts all the doctrines of Salvation, we can teach others of the truth.
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Mosiah 15 1-8
1 AND now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.
7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.
8 And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men—
This should help.
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The point I was trying to make is that there is no argument that can prove the divinity of the book of Mormon or the Bible, save the Holy Spirit of Promise which testifies of all truth.
The problem with using these truths, such as Columbus, is that they are an effort to prove the divinity of the Book of Mormon. When we get in the game of trying to prove something is right, then the devil has won the battle. What arises is contention, which does not bond men together and promote love. We present truth in a manner that lays it in front of another person, for what it is. That person will then have to choose whether to accept the truth or to deny it. Truth is truth because it is truth. Persuasion works in progression. Truth does not progress. It is established and remains as truth for eternity. Truth will progress, though, in the sense that truth is established in the soul degree by degree, line upon line, precept by precept, here a little and there a little. The truth is still present even if we are not always aware of it. I was not aware that my grandfather had died until after we received a phone call saying he had passed away. But he had still passed away. Just because I didn't know, doesn't ean he hadn't died.
We cannot prove the Book of Mormon to be true. But the Holy Ghost does. It is true. But to every person who knows it's true, it is because the Holy Ghost has witnessed and testified to them that it is true. That is what we all have in common, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It is not because President Hinckley said it is true. Not because Elder McConkie said it is true. Not because my Dad says it is true. Not because your bishop says it is true. It is because you know individually and independent of any other person that it is true.
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There is a handbook called "Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood." Ask your Bishop where you may get one.
-You are to be observant and willing to do the Lord's Will.
-You are to see that there is no iniquity in the church, like gossip.(this is often not fulfilled because it is "not considered your place" to make judgments concerning the sins and iniquities of others.)
-You are to strengthen and watch over the church by teaching and exhorting all to come unto Christ.
-You are to be assigned home teaching families which you will have direct stewardship over.
-You may administer the Sacrament by passing, preparing, or blessing the Sacrament.
-You may baptize under direction and authority from the Bishop.
-You may ordain other members to the Aaronic Priesthood under direction and authority from the Bishop.
-You are to assist the missionary effort.
-You are to Teach the ordinances and principles of the Gospel, or the doctrine by the Spirit.
-You are to first learn(know them and do your best to fulfill them) the duties, and doctrine for yourself and then strengthen others with your knowledge.
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Well that kind of tips the applecart of my beliefs....so where does God the Father come into the picture?
"Everlasting Covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this Earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the Earth. They are...God the first, the creator, God the second, the redeemer, and God the third the witness or testator." -Joseph Smith. I don't know what goes in the"..."
This is the doctrine of the Godhead established by the Prophet Joseph Smith.
God our Heavenly Father is a holy, perfected and exalted person. He is person in whose image man is made. He has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans. He lives in the family unit. He has all might, all power, and all dominion. He has all knowledge. He is the creator of all things. He therefore stands supreme in celestial glory, ruling the sidereal heavens according to his laws instituted from before the foundation of the world.
Think of it like this: (not the best example but it suffices)
-A King sits on a hill with a thousand starving people and has commanded them to accept food only from him(because he knows that is the only way they will be nourished).(The decree set up for his stewardships which he has created)
-He tells his Prince to administer bread and water.(The mediation necessary to administer the decree)
-The Prince informs the recipients that these are provisions directly from the King by way of a written letter with a seal of approval.(testifying of the validity and truth of the decree)
This is essentially how the Godhead works. They have their own missions and responsibilities in their dealings with men. Heavenly Father gives the decree to men through Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost. All righteousness glorifies the father, because righteousness is the fruit of faith and works. The Fruit. That is the key. The fruits of the work of each member of the Godhead testify of each other to their divinity. "Behold this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" -Moses 1:39 One of the fruits of His work, the immortality, has been paved and will thus happen. So when we gain celestial inheritance, we glorify the Father because we are His fruits. Then we have dominion of our own kingdom, which is our fruit, which increases our glory and increases the glory of the Father by our "increased standing". So our Heavenly Father progresses forth in glory forever and ever, and stands forever at the head. That is why we are not joint-heirs with the father, but with Jesus Christ.
You can also think of the creation story. Heavenly Father gave Jesus Christ authority to create the Earth. Heavenly Father still is the creator, because it is His fruit.
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Hi I have been a member all my life, and I turned 19 today actually. I try to look at things from many angles. So I am pretty open about differing views except when we get down to the doctrine. Then I get pretty narrow and firm. I had been looking for a place to talk about the gospel and I believe I have found it today.
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There is no historical evidence that proves the Book of Mormon True. There also happens to be no historical evidence that proves the Bible True. It is set up that way for a purpose. So that men will walk by faith rather than by sight. The only way you can know the truth is by having the Holy Ghost bear witness and testify to your soul that the Book of Mormon and Bible are true. Joseph Smith said in reference to the rock of which we build our salvation, "What Rock? Revelation."
Any divinely appointed truths, are revealed by the power of the Holy Ghost and come by no other way. Some of them are the Book of Mormon and the Bible.
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"A New Witness for the Articles of Faith"- Elder Bruce R. McConkie
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After a lot of doctrinal studying and also a fair amount of McConkie, I came to this conclusion as I happened to be reading it last night. I read 1 Nephi 11-14 straight through and it is interesting what each chapter represents. Chapter 11 is an overview of the plan of Salvation, as we know. Chapter 12 is the prophecy of his seed and their dwindling in unbelief. Chapter 13 is a prophecy of the world during the apostasy to the second coming of Christ. Chapter 14 is, in effect, prophecy of the times and its relevance to the members of the church in terms of our spiritual war. It also establishes the stewardship of John the Beloved for the prophecy's of our time.
I will focus on chapter 13 which is the first appearance of "great and abominable church." Chapter 13 completely speaks in specifics. They are listed in this fashion:
-nations and kingdoms -various groups of people on Earth
-formation of great and abominable church -Catholic Church(see below)
-waters separate seed from gentiles -Atlantic Ocean
-man finds promised land -Christopher Columbus
-oppressed leave captivity -Pilgrims leave Europe
-oppressed prosper in new land -English grow to main power
-fight mother nation -Colonists fight England
-God helps oppressed agianst enemies -Influence of God seen through founding fathers
-oppressed carry a book -Bible
-book is a record from the Jew and the fullness of gospel -word and power of God unto Salvation
-book is pure until formation of church -Nicene creed
-book then proceeds forth to all nations -Bible is spread over all Earth
-book becomes stumbling block for many -works of men confuse unlearned and results in multiple denominations
-oppressed will not completely destroy mixture of seed -Native Americans not wiped completely away
-Oppressed(gentiles) are in a state of blindness -absent of the Holy Ghost, not knowing where to turn, men are lost without a restoration of the gospel
-Lamb will be merciful unto gentiles -promise of love(his word and gifts) given to gentile
-much of the gospel comes forth by power of God -Book of Mormon translated but parts remained sealed
-writings of nephi and others to come forth -Book of Mormon from hill cumorah
-written is the gospel -truth as a standard is established
-seek to bring forth Zion and we are saved in celestial inheritance -Celestial Law given, wanting to do all righteousness for the glory of God and not personal vainglory.
-Books come forward to testify of the Lamb and his disciples -standard works and works of apostles and prophets as written under influence of the Spirit
-doctrine of Christ established -3 nephi 11
-These books become one as the Word of God -standard works
-He comes to manifest himself to Jews and gentiles -1st coming
-He comes again to manifest to gentile and Jew -2nd coming
Now I am sure if you read the part above you will have taken some offense to the labeling of the Catholic Church as the "Great and Abominable Church." What is important to remember about the scriptures is just because it says one word in one book, doesn't men that it will mean exactly the same thing in another book.(Isaiah) The account of Abraham ch.3 27-28 says:
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
The Lord in this instance is God our Heavenly Father. I think you will agree with me though that most other instances it would reference the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now, establishing that point. Let's look at the reference of "great and abominable church" in chapter 13(at least vs. 4-9). It says the founder of the church is the devil. What are the teachings of Christ...TRUTH! And ONLY truth. He does not lie, he does not create false doctrines or lead men away from salvation. Salvation is in Christ. Salvation is in truth. The devil is the father of ALL lies. He takes the opinions and interpretations of men and uses them to deceive. Exactly what happened in the Nicene Creed. What church was formed from this creed and the others. The Catholic Church. A couple of the verses state that the word was full and pure before the formation of the church.(vs.25-26) The formation of the church was in the false creeds which was based on the interpretations of men and their opinions. Certain truths were lost, most notably the nature and kind of being that God is.
So, what am I trying to say. Simply, I see where Elder McConkie was coming from. However, looking at the next chapter(14), the reference to the "great and abominable church" is the church consisting of the followers of the devil, while the church of the Lamb of God is the followers of Christ.
Now to clarify my view on the Catholic Church. I view it respectfully and hold it in no manner of condemnation. Besides all that is referenced anyways in the Book of Mormon is the formation of it. But as we know the church is an institution, whether it be by God or whether it be by man. We have the right and freedom to choose what to believe because of agency. However, Salvation comes in and only through the Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the laws, and terms, and conditions of Salvation are instituted on this Earth by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood and by the atoning power of his great and infinite sacrifice.
We choose to believe in Christ. People who believe in Christ are looking for His church. They are looking for the church, or institution, that teaches of Christ and administers His blessings and ordinances to us. There is no condemnation in any way, shape or form for those believing in a false church, if they innocently believe it to be true. However there is condemnation if the believer knows it not to be true and continues to believe in that non-truth. It is a sin against the light. But to what degree? We don't know. Only Jesus Christ, who has commanded us not to be the judge of others, knows.
I don't say this to throw a sucker punch or a blindsided hit. I just say it to present another view that is entirely plausible.
Becoming Gods? Is this true?
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
D&C 129 1-7
1 THERE are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
I know that was your opinion, but I noticed the conversation between you and hemidakota and I figured this clarified what he was saying and what we know.