PapilioMemnon

Just to clarify, we do believe we are His literal spirit children (Numbers 27:16), not that we were begotten of Him in the flesh. The ONLY one who was, was our Savior & Lord, Jesus Christ.

I, usually, more often than not, refrain from making &/or giving opinions about people I'm not personally acquainted and have spend enough time to actually form a round opinion of the person. I tend to do this with everyone, anywhere, including here. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and tend to clearly separate behavior and the core person. With that said, I just know some things about him, about his career as a governor of MA, which I was very surprised..., but then again, I'm still just gathering facts and truths about him, but don't really KNOW him. I find it kind of hard to make an opinion about someone I see on TV under stressful circumstances. He gave me the idea he's very intelligent, and he seems to be business savvy since he funded most of his campaign, if I'm not mistaking (If I am, I know someone will correct me :-P, which believe it or not, I truly appreciate), I didn't see a lot of charisma, but that doesn't necessarily mean something bad. Some people has it, some don't, and they can be good or not. That does not tell me, though, what type of person and member he is. I do like that he sort of opened up the possiblity for people to learn more and become more familiar with The Church, thus sort of, possibly, reducing the negative stigma people see... However, because someone is of my faith, it does not mean that I'd support it though... I'd need to really come to know him more than the little things I know. I think that is a very faulty foundation,i.e., to support someone just because he is a mormon. There are many other people that can be equally or better qualified for the position who is not a mormon, although I truly would like to see a true member of The Church in a position as such. I hope I'm still "within" the rules...

In a very intelligent way, he connected the dots.... Wonderful talk!

You're welcome! Just for the record, I forgot to mention that none of the two persons I mentioned on my post grew up in the Church or are in Church. I was just teasing you... but seriously, your spiritual description there is quite close to one of them!!! Yes,... a spiritual twin... I'd say! A good friend! Have a wonderful day! :)

Hi Georgia, Everytime I read the BOM, I see things clearer... It's definitely written for our days, and for all things we would be facing now. On those chapters, particularly, they emphasize spiritual preparation. On chapter 48:7, while Amalickiach was working on overtime to obtain his goal by fraud and deceit, Moroni's was doing what? Preparing "the minds of people to be faithful unto the Lord their God." I love this principle! We are in about the same conditions as they were; we face a major spiritual war, and physical battles as well, and we find ourselves just before the coming of Christ, just like them. We need to be prepared spiritually not only to resist and combat the evils we face today but also to be prepared to receive the teachings we will have at the time of His coming... The conditions of our hearts and minds will play a great role as it does now! I love the example of Moroni! His faithfulness and trust in God, and also in the Prophet (When he sent his men to go the Alma to find out where the Lamanites had gone and would attack - Alma 43) I love the fact that he placed reminders of the covenant he made everywhere... On chapter 49, as you said, be prepared is the theme; they prepared the cities and were vigilant as they went about "fortifying the weak places" and the "weak became strong.' We certainly need to work on the "weak" spots by presenting them to the Lord and asking for help through the enabling and strengthening power of the Atonement. As Moroni, let us make covenants, keep them, and then, make "swords"! The power of faith in Christ is a priority!!! Chapters 51 - 55 are absolutely fabulous for the many crucial principles they teach! From cleaning the "inner vessel," to not leave "srongholds,'" to knowing the difference between knowing what's true and being true to that knowldege, to being admonished to be vigilant so that we are not "poisoned by degrees..." Those are very important and eye-opening principles. Thanks for helping me review these things!!! I'm preparing Helaman 1-5 this week... sadly, the battles continued...

Hi Kevin... Just thought I'd drop a line....(or a few) I don't happen to know you, right???? hahahaha You sound just like someone I really know; that description fits him perfectly! I used to joke around with him saying that he had a major spiritual identity crisis... Anyways... You seem to be an interesting person with a great sense of humor! I liked the way you "prepared" the territory; it reminded me of another person I know who calls himself an atheist and is known for "preparing" people... with his acute intellect and perceptions; he's a very nice person and very knowledgeable as well! I've had many interesting conversations with them... about their philosophies, ideas, and perceptions... Anyways... be well and take care! Hope you enjoy!

Hi Moksha, I do know and understand that. Preach The Word; build faith! Faith in The Word is the "slip resistance" foundation!

I don't remember ever hearing any teaching or reading anywhere that we teach that...That's not something we are supposed to seek... And I don't think and believe any of the Prophets ever taught that! But I do believe in what President Snow said and what it leads to as consequence... Our eyes have to be single to the glory OF God. And if we were ever to reach His presence, and become like Him, by all means, we MUST be humble and humble ourselves to Him! It's my belief that no one will make to His presence in arrogance, greed, or seeking celestial material possessions or a throne or to be worshiped! That is completely inconsistent with being LIKE Him. Hoever, it's not inconsistent if we examine the relationship between cause/consequence. I, too, wait for "further knowledge" on this matter... just for knowldege; I'm more concerned with doctrine & knowldege of the things that are required for salvation though...

Misshalfway, I understand what you're saying; this principle that we speak in not "official" doctrine. However, it's a principle we believe in, and jsut because is not made "official,' it doesn't mean is not accepted as doctrine. When porphets speak,... Conference addresses are to be taken as scripture; was that made "official?" You're clear and right about being really specific that we were taught that we are Heavenly Father's spirit children, and the Jesus Christ is His ONLY Begotten Son in the flesh, and in saying that if we reach Exaltation, the highest degree of glory where Heavenly Father and Christ dwell, we will inherit all and be "joint-heirs with Christ." No, there's no scripture that says we will be worshiped; at least, I haven't seen it. But there are several scriptural references that we are addressed as "gods," and we were commanded to become LIKE Him, not ABOVE Him, just LIKE Him. He will ALWAYS be the Almighty, and ABOVE all others. Just a King doesn't stop being a King when he gives the kindgom to a son, and the son becomes LIKE his father, a King as well. Only that, Heavenly Father will ALWAYS be ABOVE any! We are already co-creaters in many aspects... I understand what you're saying, and that you keep specifically stressing is that we draw logical/intelligent conclusions (and I'd say guided by the Spirit), but we don't know much about it beyond that. And that's right! There's something I'd like to mention, but I can't adn won't because it pertains to very sacred ordinance; the sealing ordinance says a lot... Try to remember the words... Thanks for trying to be really specific about it! I appreciate it!

I feel that one of the hardest part of having the office of a "seer, revelator" is to try to unite the many different ways we think & understand to the way Father does; that's one of our goals; if we are to do His will, and become "like, in His likeness" we must see, think, feel, do, understand the way He does. "Be of one mind..." "Be one..." as the Lord became one with Father, in His prayer to Him, He prayed that we would also become one with Them. There are many aspects of the wars between the Nephites and Lamanites (made up of several different groups, and not only direct descents of Laman at this point); in Helaman 4, part of it, says: (Emphasis added) Helaman 4 11 Now this great loss of the Nephites, and the great slaughter which was among them[the Nephites], would not have happened had it not been for their wickedness and their bomination which was among them; yea, and it was among those also who professed to belong to the church of God. 12 And it was because of the pride of their hearts, because of their exceeding briches, yea, it was because of their oppression to the cpoor, withholding their food from the hungry, withholding their clothing from the naked, and smiting their humble brethren upon the cheek, making a dmock of that which was sacred, denying the spirit of prophecy and of revelation, murdering, plundering, lying, stealing, committing adultery, rising up in great contentions, and deserting away into the land of Nephi, among the Lamanites— 13 And because of this their great wickedness, and their aboastings in their own strength, they were left in their own strength; therefore they did not prosper, but were afflicted and smitten, and driven before the Lamanites, until they had lost possession of almost all their lands. 14 But behold, Moronihah did apreach many things unto the people because of their iniquity, and also bNephi and Lehi, who were the sons of Helaman, did preach many things unto the people, yea, and did prophesy many things unto them concerning their iniquities, and what should come unto them if they did not repent of their sins. - Prophecy & revelations - trying to get people to see and understand, but they would not think like them, the prophets who thry to lead us to think and have the understanding and mind of Heavenly Father .... ..... 23 And because of their iniquity the church had begun to adwindle; and they began to disbelieve in the spirit of prophecy and in the spirit of revelation; and the judgments of God did stare them in the face. 24 And they saw that they had become aweak, like unto their brethren, the Lamanites, and that the Spirit of the Lord did no more preserve them; yea, it had withdrawn from them because the Spirit of the Lord doth not bdwell in cunholy dtemples— 25 Therefore the Lord did cease to preserve them by his miraculous and matchless power, for they had fallen into a state of aunbelief and awful wickedness; and they saw that the Lamanites were exceedingly more numerous than they, and except they should bcleave unto the Lord their God they must unavoidably perish. 26 For behold, they saw that the strength of the Lamanites was as great as their strength, even man for man. And thus had they fallen into this great transgression; yea, thus had they become aweak, because of their transgression, in the space of bnot many years. Because of their unbelief in the words of the prophets and revelation.... Because of dissenssions, contentions, deserting away among others who didn't believe .... the cause/consequence are clear. I often wonder why did He call prophets if we all could interpret and follow our "own understanding" and we all would be right. To the OP (Sorry I can't remember if it's Fiona or not), I understand that you don't quite understand this principle, but there are several, several scriptural references that support it (I have posted them on another thread and can't remember where. Message me if you're interested; the New Testament is full of references); it will take time to study them and ponder them, and then, Heavenly Father can deepen your understanding of those things; only He can help you "see' these spiritual truths if you want Him to show it to you. Remember, you are an agent unto yourself; no one can impose and make you "see" or "feel' something if you don't allow it. I think and feel it's wise for you to prayerfully analyze your feelings about feeling very "uncomfortable with this doctrine" and how this person "made you feel." It will reveal things to you about you, and that should be personal, and I beleive that none of us can do it for you. What a leader says or not, or the way they do it, if we have sustained them, we should be careful with how WE take that. I have mentioned this before in other posts, and someone )I can't recall, sorry) mentioned it again, all things we hear/receive from our leaders should be with/through the Spirit and all things shloud prayerfully pondered;' the instructor,speaker has the obligation to speak/teach/preach by the Holy ghost, and so does the hearer/student/receiver; we have to learn to hear actively and receive things throught the Spirit (I think D&C 50 explains that) Doctrine and Covenants 50 Verses 13-24 Sometimes is not the speaker/teacher/preacher that are not in tune, but the hearers/students/ that are not in tune with the Spirit and receiving it through Him. Understanding things take time; we should prayerfully study and explore through the Spirit of God, persist upon, and patiently wait for the understanding to come to us that ONLY God can reveal and give. Our ideas/thoughts/feelings about things are not necessarily Heavenly Father's, unless we have learned to "receive it through the Spirit of Father, know Him, spiritually discern His ways, and come to have His mind." I feel that if you'll prayerfully study the scriptures that touch this subject, and ask of God, and wait upon Him while you continue to study, ask questions, search, evaluate your own feelings, He will expand that principle to you... and you'll "see...' Don't block something, the teachings of prophets because of your own feelings/thoughts/understanding about it. Rather, try analyzing, searching, pondering, reading more on the subject, and asking of God Himself to enlighten you and your understanding. Remember: Prov. 3: 5 5 aTrust in the Lord with all thine bheart; and lean not unto thine cown dunderstanding.. Proverbs 4 7 aWisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get bunderstanding. Best regards and wishes to you!

:roflmbo: :roflmbo:

WOW

Poor her... Just because animals don't speak, it doesn't mean they don't feel it... (I felt like crying... I have tears in my eyes...)

Faith is one of my favorite subjects! "...Faith involves the exercise of moral agency to act upon the assurance of things hoped for and invites the evidence of things not seen from the only true teacher, the Spirit of the Lord." (Elder David E. Bednar, "Seek Learning By Faith," 3 Feb. 2006)

2 Nephi was one of my favorite books when I first read the BOM, and I absolutely love Isaiah! He's one of my favorite prophets; I love the way he wrote! Years after that, I purchased the OT Student Manuals from ldscatalg (Manuals for Institute) and was more acquainted with the "manner of prophesying" & the regions; it made it easier to understand certain things that pertained to their time and then I could "see' what Isaiah was trying to convey or comparing it to. Don't give up; understanding Isaiah's prophecies is a must for us! Once your eyes are "open,' you'll discover how wonderful it is! Welcome