PapilioMemnon

hahahaha... it's reminds me of so many funny things!!! Even though they are my kids, I treat them as I'd treat people in general: I ask permission to share something about them, if they say "No,'' I respect it, and then ask: "Can I talk about the situation without mentioning your name?," Most of the time they agree! But most of the time, if it's not something they feel embarrassed about, they will tell me that I can talk about. And particularly my younger one... he loves when I talk about him.... he loves to be the center of attention!!! And my older one, since he likes to be funny... he usually won't say for me not to share... only very few things they would really not want me to, and I wouldn't... it would really embarrasse them... I'd feel bad doing it to them as to another person. I try to give them the same respect as any human being, and not just say stuff about them just because they are my kids; I found they really, truly appreciate that! I remember one time sharing soemthing I really didn't know he'd feel so upset about it , I think my younger one, and when I realized that he wasn't just pretending to be upset, I apologized to him (I think he's 5-6-7 at the time), and told him I'd never do that again. I felt really, really bad.... That's how I learned to check before I share their stuff!!!

Well, it's been a long time I got mine in Portuguese from the Church headquaters, and no, it's didn't come with the footnotes or explanations or JST! It's was the version comparable to the KJV, so you're talking about not a modern Portuguese as well.

I really like the point you made when you said "being willing to sit and listen to it, one provides encouragement to the person being rude by giving them an audience." Really good point! A person will only say some things if there's someone willing to listen to it! So, you feel that since the person is "consistent" with what he/she said and since would also tell on the person's face, you don't feel it's gossip if told to someone else as well? Waht would you do or say to someone so that you wouldn't encourage that behavior?

Right. I think we should be able to step away give someone the benefit of the doubt before accepting someone's words about another as it is given. Great point! Especially when it goes from one person to another to another.... at the end, they are not even telling the same story in the first place!!! It usually gets so altered! It's quite hard trying to restitute someone's image... but definitely worth all a person can do! WE must be really carefully with our words and how we speak about another person; they deserve the same respect we would like to have. Thanks for your input!

Right! I think in this case, the person is genuinely trying to know how to approach someone because of the reasons you stated. I feel that's different than gossiping. About your experience, even though I'd be a little embarassed about putting the person on the spot, in the case you stated, I would be okay, and just apologize and say I didn't know about that. I think that's a pretty good sign there's no gossiping going on! Thumbs up for your ward!!!! :) WOW!.... Yeah, in this case, I think I would have done the same because it's such an unusual situation, and others might really need to know for protection. I'm sorry, but I laughed so much when I read this (Sometimes, I laugh at weird things)... How crazy....!!! I think I'd be frightened!!! I really appreciate your input as well, and for sharing those experiences!

I do agree and disagree to some extent. I do agree that if this person can't tell the same things in front of the person, it's clearly gossip. However, I know some people who will talk behind their backs, and would throw on their faces as well along with more. So, wouldn't it be gossip anyway discussing in a derogatory way anyone whether or not they would tell them as well? Just trying to figure things out... Thanks for your input!!!

Right! Sometimes is just plain gossip; those are easy to spot. I completely agree with you that about the "gray areas." So, you're saying that if someone discussing a problem that involves someone, it's not necessarily gossip, just someone trying to sort things out, and perhaps, hear the truth about them they may not be seeing. Did I get that right? I just had a this type of conversation (She needed to hear the truth instead of blaming the other person) with a friend last night, but the difference is, I told it to her instead of discussing "her" with someone else. I think that everyone of us have had those moments... It's comforting to know there're people that a person can go to, especially someone who will listen & tell you things you might need to hear, and, I love the point you made, who won't say to anyone else and won't add to it! Even if another person will be discussed as well? I guess what I get confused is with the fact that even though I might be focusing on the issue at hand, I will be talking or listening to someone discussing X&Z, and then not sure where the line lies. Does it make sense? Right,... those are sort of easier to spot... I think most of us can spot those easily. I try to exit or dismiss it right away as well! I also try not to remember what was said about someone, and always try to give them the benefit of the doubt. Right. I do agree we need to be watchful about some people and situations something might happen. I hear you! Someone once accused me of being against him because I used to defend others, and not take his side. I tried explaining several times that it wasn't about him, but that I disliked him talking bad about people period, and sometimes people who were his friends. I simply really disliked it, and still do. Thank you so much for your input! I feel the more responses and discussions I have about this, I'll be able to identify the "fine" line much better.

Recently a person (Who, I'll refer to as X) came to my place, and in the middle of our trivial conversation, she began talking about another person (who is another member of the LDS Church, and I'll refere to as Z) and some problems they were having (I'm not going to elaborate on what it was since I only know less than half of the story, and have heard only one side). As X began talking about the issue she had with Z, and using some names to describe Z's attitudes/behavior, then I quickly realized that the conversation was changing it's tone, I felt "constrained, uneasy,"and I noticed I couldn't be of any help, X had already decided what she was going to do; she wasn't coming to me to ask for advice. So, to me, it seemd unkind & uncharitable to me to continue the conversation especially since Z was not present and I had no idea of previous issues, and what actually happened. So, kindly, I told X that I understood & acknowledged she was frustrated, but this issue should be resolved with Z directly, and if anything else, she, X, should talk to the Bishop or the RS President (Relief Society) about it. I told her that I felt it would be kind & charitable to Z that we didn't discuss her and her ideas/behavior especially when I don't know her well and she's not present to give her side and defend herself. She seemed to have agreed, and I just changed the conversation to somethign else. I feel she could've told me about the problem in another way, not dropping names and talking about the person's atittude & behavior in a derogatory way or using an analogy to her situation but that I wouldn't be able to clearly identify who she was talking about. I've been feeling very sensitive about this, like, when I realize for what it is. I understand the need to talk to someone about what you're feeling or seek advice, but I feel that gossiping is harsh, mean, unkind, uncharitable, and very detrimental to any relationship; if you hear someone talking bad about someone else about any issue, and the other is not present and can't defend themselves, at some point, this will happen to the "listener" as well. What I find very bad in gossiping, usually, the person who talks about another, will not go back to all those he/she spoke to, to make ammends on behalf of the peron spoken about (If she/he apologized, or tehy worked out...). The image of the other person is "stained,'' even if after the fact, the person who talked in the first place, was wrong or ... If strongly feel that we should approach the person directly and privately to talk about any issue we might have with the person instead of giving our opinions and perceptions of how/why this person is this or that (Since we usually don't make a clear distinction about the person & behavior), and that we learn about a person directly from the person, not someone who might have bad feelings/opinions about him/her as well (I feel that the exceptions to that would be if someone is abusive/violent/criminal/bad intentions and continues doing that, then it's not gossip if you warn others about him/her) Now, when do you feel/know that talking about a problem that involves someone else becomes gossiping? I truly would like to hear several points of view from many different people who would like to share their experiences/ideas/thoughts on the topic regardless of religious beliefs since I don't beleve this is about religion only. It will be greatly appreciated! I also would like to suggest that this is valid as well for us here, members of this board, and not just "real" life interactions. * By the way, this is quite different from talking about someone who is abusive, i.e., please seek help & someone if you're suffering from abuse or is the victm of violence abuse (Of any kind), rape, etc.

I believe in all. I know what you're saying; in my ward, unfortunatley, we have the same thing happening...

Welcome! :)

There's nothing above the power of prayer & the testimony of the Holy Ghost of truth to communicate with our Heavenly FAther and receive answers to our questions; you might fast as well though; once you receive it, you'll know for yourself and how distinct it is from anything else you might have ever felt in your life! John 14 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 2 Nephi 32 8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the devil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray. 9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul. 2 Nephi 33 1 And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man bspeaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men. The Holy Ghost carries it "unto the heart,' but not "into the heart," unless the heart is open to His promptings, teachings. D&C 50 14 To preach my gospel by the Spirit, even the Comforter which was sent forth to teach the truth. ---------------------------- LINK: The Power of a Personal Testimony "A testimony is the sure knowledge or assurance from the Holy Ghost of the truth and divinity of the Lord's work in these latter days. A testimony is the "abiding, living, [and] moving conviction of the truths revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ" (Marion G. Romney, "How to Gain a Testimony," New Era, May 1976, 8; emphasis added). How Do We Get a Testimony? We all know that it is easier to talk about a testimony than to acquire one. The process to receive one is based on the law of the harvest: "For whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap" (Galatians 6:7). No good thing comes without effort and sacrifice. If we have to work hard to obtain a testimony, it will make us and our testimony even stronger. And if we share our testimony, it will grow. A testimony is a most precious possession because it is not acquired by logic or reason alone, it cannot be purchased with earthly possessions, and it cannot be given as a present or inherited from our ancestors. We cannot depend on the testimonies of other people. We need to know for ourselves. President Gordon B. Hinckley said, "Every Latter-day Saint has the responsibility to know for himself or herself with a certainty beyond doubt that Jesus is the resurrected, living Son of the living God" ("Fear Not to Do Good," Ensign, May 1983, 80). The source of this sure knowledge and firm conviction is divine revelation, "for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Revelation 19:10). We receive this testimony when the Holy Spirit speaks to the spirit within us. We will receive a calm and unwavering certainty that will be the source of our testimony and conviction irrespective of our culture, race, language, or socioeconomic background. These promptings of the Spirit, rather than human logic alone, will be the true foundation upon which our testimony will be built. The core of this testimony will always be the faith in and the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His divine mission, who in the scriptures says of Himself, "I am the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6). So how do we receive a personal testimony rooted in the witness of the Holy Ghost? The pattern is outlined in the scriptures: First: Desire to believe. The Book of Mormon encourages us: "If [you] will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, . . . even if [you] can no more than desire to believe" (Alma 32:27). Some may say, "I cannot believe; I am not a religious person." Just consider, God promises us divine help even if we have only a desire to believe, but it has to be a true and not a pretended desire. Second: Search the scriptures. Have questions; study them out; search in the scriptures for answers. Again, the Book of Mormon has good advice for us: "If [you] give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart" through diligent study of the word of God, the good seed "will begin to swell within your breasts" if you will not resist with unbelief. This good seed will "enlarge [your] soul" and "enlighten [your] understanding" (Alma 32:28). Third: Do the will of God; keep the commandments. It is not enough to enter into a scholarly debate if we want to know for ourselves that the kingdom of God has been restored upon the earth. Casual study is also not enough. We have to get in on the action ourselves, and that means learning and then doing God's will. We need to come to Christ and follow His teachings. The Savior taught: "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:16–17; emphasis added). And He said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). Fourth: Ponder, fast, and pray. To receive knowledge from the Holy Ghost, we must ask Heavenly Father for it. We must trust that God loves us and that He will help us to recognize the promptings of the Holy Ghost. The Book of Mormon reminds us: "When [you] . . . read these things, . . . remember how merciful the Lord [has] been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that [you] shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. ". . . Ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are . . . true; and if [you] . . . ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost" (Moroni 10:3–4). And the prophet Alma said: "I testify unto you that I do know that these things . . . are true. And how do [you] suppose that I know of their surety? " . . . Behold, I have fasted and prayed . . . that I might know these things of myself. And . . . the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation" (Alma 5:45–46). My dear brothers and sisters, Alma received his witness by fasting and prayer more than 2,000 years ago, and we may have the same sacred experience today. "----------------------------------------- I hope this helps! I'm sorry for my Job-ish patience; it's definitely an area I need to be better; we have been exchanging ideas even before this thread. May the Lord assist you in your search and give that "which no man can give you."

It reminds me of what Elder Bednar said in one of his talks (If I'm not mistaking, "Quick to Observe"). He gave an example, about the earrings issue between a guy and a girl... and since the girl didn't "heed" the counsel, the guy stopped seeing her. So he, then, continued... "The earrings wasn't the issue..." I love the teachings of our leaders!!!

I feel there's "safety in counsel" in the counsel of the prophets & apostles; I trust them because I do believe they are called of God, and are wiser than I am. When I hear a leader speak (GA or local) something that I don't understand or maybe "disagree" with what was said, and think my way/idea/approach is better or somone else's, I ponder it, then I pray to get a confirmation of what was said and taught. I have come to know, fortunately for me, through many painful situations, that they were right! There is safety in their counsel! I do not follow them blindly as I seek to know for myself of Heavenly Father about what they spoke/counseled me to do, and not do. If I had followed their counsel the first time, I probably would have avoided all the pain I went through, but then again, I'm grateful that it brought me to where I am now! Criticism is not healthy (Spiritually) towards anyone and especially the leaders; humbleness and prayer are the answers. Whenever I have felt the need to criticize a leader usually was because I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing, and humbleness was far away from me. Again, pride is the issue. I echo the words/feelings of Pres. Eyring "Every time in my life when I have chosen to delay following inspired counsel or decided that I was an exception, I came to know that I had put myself in harm’s way. Every time that I have listened to the counsel of prophets, felt it confirmed in prayer, and then followed it, I have found that I moved toward safety. Along the path, I have found that the way had been prepared for me and the rough places made smooth. God led me to safety along a path that was prepared with loving care, sometimes prepared long before." (Emphasis added) LDS.org - Liahona Article - Safety in Counsel

Yes, indeed! I didn't express myself well; I meant a version in Portuguese comparable to the KJV. Thanks... I'll fix that!

Some Basic Facts about the Church--------------------------------------------------- "Some facts [that] might [help others understand Latter-day Saints] include: "First, 'Mormon' is a nickname for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Members are often referred to as 'Mormons,' 'Latter day Saints,' or 'LDS.' The term 'Saint' means 'member.' "Second, the Church was restored in 1830 in upstate New York with Joseph Smith as its first prophet and president. Today it is headquartered in Salt Lake City, with President Gordon B. Hinckley as the present prophet. [Current: President Thomas S. Monson - Pres. Hinckley died early this year] "Third, there are now over 13 million members in 176 countries and territories. About 6 million of these are in the United States, making us the fourth largest Christian denomination in America. As one of the fastest growing Christian faiths in the world, we complete a new chapel every working day. Members pay a tithe, which is 10 percent of their income, making this and other programs possible. "Fourth, local congregations are led by volunteer, unpaid members. Both men and women serve in assigned leadership positions. "And fifth, Mormons are well represented in politics and government. . . . Members also serve in high and trusted positions throughout the world in business, medicine, law, education, media, sports, and entertainment." Topics: Church history, Church organization, Church doctrine, knowledge (M. Russell Ballard, "Faith, Family, Facts, and Fruits," Ensign, Nov. 2007, 25 26) Those are simple facts about the Chuch. Feel free to contribute with SIMPLE, BASIC facts / principles about the Church and our beliefs.

Bible and Book of Mormon Authenticate Each Other --------------------------------------------------- "Scriptural witnesses authenticate each other. This concept was explained long ago when a prophet wrote that the Book of Mormon was 'written for the intent that ye may believe [the Bible]; and if ye believe [the Bible] ye will believe [the Book of Mormon] also' (Mormon 7:9). Each book refers to the other. Each book stands as evidence that God lives and speaks to His children by revelation to His prophets. "Love for the Book of Mormon expands one's love for the Bible and vice versa. Scriptures of the Restoration do not compete with the Bible; they complement the Bible. We are indebted to martyrs who gave their lives so that we could have the Bible. It establishes the everlasting nature of the gospel and of the plan of happiness. The Book of Mormon restores and underscores biblical doctrines such as tithing, the temple, the Sabbath day, and the priesthood." Topics: Bible, Book of Mormon, witness, scriptures, Restoration (Russell M. Nelson, "Scriptural Witnesses," Ensign, Nov. 2007, 43)

That's great!!!! I agree... "it's the best kept secret"!!!

Since I've always read the KJV, and the version in Portuguese that is comparable to the KJV, I don't feel the need to changed it at all; I like old English :). I had another version, and it didn't work for me. I feel that some "modern" have become too modern... and the meaning is "lost in translation...' Some people will understand what I mean by that. The Church does not tell the members that we can use only one version, but it certaily endorses the KJV. If anyone who has the KJV Bible through the LDS Church, you'll see the Epistle Dedicatory that I'll post here, and in my opinion, for the Church to endorse in such way a particular version, it says a LOT to me! --------------------------------------------------------- Epistle Dedicatory - Epistle Dedicatory TO THE MOST HIGH AND MIGHTY PRINCE JAMES BY THE GRACE OF GOD KING OF GREAT BRITAIN, FRANCE, AND IRELAND, DEFENDER OF THE FAITH, &c. The Translators of the Bible wish Grace, Mercy, and Peace through JESUS CHRIST our Lord Great and manifold were the blessings, most dread Sovereign, which Almighty God, the Father of all mercies, bestowed upon us the people of England, when first he sent Your Majesty’s Royal Person to rule and reign over us. For whereas it was the expectation of many, who wished not well unto our Sion, that upon the setting of that bright Occidental Star, Queen Elizabeth of most happy memory, some thick and palpable clouds of darkness would so have overshadowed this Land, that men should have been in doubt which way they were to walk; and that it should hardly be known, who was to direct the unsettled State; the appearance of Your Majesty, as of the Sun in his strength, instantly dispelled those supposed and surmised mists, and gave unto all that were well affected exceeding cause of comfort; especially when we beheld the Government established in Your Highness, and Your hopeful Seed, by an undoubted Title, and this also accompanied with peace and tranquillity at home and abroad. But among all our joys, there was no one that more filled our hearts, than the blessed continuance of the preaching of God’s sacred Word among us; which is that inestimable treasure, which excelleth all the riches of the earth; because the fruit thereof extendeth itself, not only to the time spent in this transitory world, but directeth and disposeth men unto that eternal happiness which is above in heaven. Then not to suffer this to fall to the ground, but rather to take it up, and to continue it in that state, wherein the famous Predecessor of Your Highness did leave it: nay, to go forward with the confidence and resolution of a Man in maintaining the truth of Christ, and propagating it far and near, is that which hath so bound and firmly knit the hearts of all Your Majesty’s loyal and religious people unto You, that Your very name is precious among them: their eye doth behold You with comfort, and they bless You in their hearts, as that sanctified Person, who, under God, is the immediate Author of their true happiness. And this their contentment doth not diminish or decay, but every day increaseth and taketh strength, when they observe, that the zeal of Your Majesty toward the house of God doth not slack or go backward, but is more and more kindled, manifesting itself abroad in the farthest parts of Christendom, but writing in defence of the Truth, (which hath given such a blow unto that man of sin, as will not be healed,) and every day at home, by religious and learned discourse, but frequenting the house of God, by hearing the Word preached, by cherishing the Teachers thereof, by caring for the Church, as a most tender and loving nursing Father. There are infinite arguments of this right Christian and religious affection in Your Majesty; but none is more forcible to declare it to others than the vehement and perpetuated desire of accomplishing and publishing of this work, which now with all humility we present unto Your Majesty. For when Your Highness had once out of deep judgment apprehended how convenient it was, that out of the Original Sacred Tongues, together with comparing of the labours, both in our own, and other foreign Languages, of many worthy men who went before us, there should be one more exact Translation of the holy Scriptures into the English Tongue; Your Majesty did never desist to urge and to excite those to whom it was commended, that the work might be hastened, and that the business might be expedited in so decent a manner, as a matter of such importance might justly require. And now at last, by the mercy of God, and the continuance of our labours, it being brought unto such a conclusion, as that we have great hopes that the Church of England shall reap good fruit thereby; we hold it our duty to offer it to Your Majesty, not only as to our King and Sovereign, but as to the principal Mover and Author of the work: humbly craving of Your most Sacred Majesty, that since things of this quality have ever been subject to the censures of illmeaning and discontented persons, it may receive approbation and patronage from so learned and judicious a Prince as Your Highness is, whose allowance and acceptance of our labours shall more honour and encourage us, that all the calumniations and hard interpretations of other men shall dismay us. So that if, on the one side, we shall be traduced by Popish Persons at home or abroad, who therefore will malign us, because we are poor instruments to make God’s holy Truth to be yet more and more known unto the people, whom they desire still to keep in ignorance and darkness; or if, on the other side, we shall be maligned by selfconceited Brethren, who run their own ways, and give liking unto nothing, but what is framed by themselves, and hammered on their anvil; we may rest secure, supported within by the truth and innocency of a good conscience, having walked the ways of simplicity and integrity, as before the Lord; and sustained without by the powerful protection of Your Majesty’s grace and favour, which will ever give countenance to honest and Christian endeavours against bitter censures and uncharitable imputations. The Lord of heaven and earth bless Your Majesty with many and happy days, that, as his heavenly hand hath enriched Your Highness with many singular and extraordinary graces, so You may be the wonder of the world in this latter age for happiness and true felicity, to the honour of that great GOD, and the good of his Church, through Jesus Christ our Lord and only Saviour. -------------------------------------------------- We are free to choose what version to use as we are free to choose all things! :)

WF, great point! In the case of the Lord, if we keep the primary commandments as He commanded ''with all your might, mind and strength,'' we will keep the law and have the correct perpective the right way. Mark 12 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, aHear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt alove the Lord thy God with all thy bheart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy cstrength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. This is our work! We will keep the law full of charity and with God's, not men's perspective.

Yes... I do believe we have a "communication" issue. There's nothing wrong with receiving information, and "studying that out in your mind," it should definitely be done, then ask of God; the feelings are the confimation of God through the Holy Ghost that I talked about being the "fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23,' and by the feelings that we feel, we can easily determine which influence are we under (The Lord's or not). D&C 9 7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. 8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must astudy it out in your bmind; then you must cask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your dbosom shall eburn within you; therefore, you shall ffeel that it is right. 9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a astupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; ... This is how we understand the answers of the Lord (Personal Revelation): We study things out, think about them, ... come to a conclusion/decision, then we go to Him, and ask if what we understood is right. he says if it's right He will help us feel something (It does not always come so strong as to feel a warm, burning sensation within us, but this also definitely happens as well), the Lord also answers us with feelings that are the "fruits of the Spirit,' His Spirit. If it's wrong (Our conclusion or decision), He will cause us to have uneasy thoughts, confusion, to the conclusion we achieved. We will have feelings that are manifested as distress, confusion, uncomfortable, restlessness ... We won't experience the "fruits of the Spirit" or the "burning in the bosom." With regards to learning about people, other's view, etc...: If I am going to learn about something from someone, it's helpful to "put aside" my views so that I can learn the other person's perspective on the subject. A person can't come to understand another if the same keeps trying to see through his/her own perspective. The same principle applies to learning about anything. Trying to understand somone's view or behavior through my perspective is not going to give me the true picture of someone's view or behavior because I'd be interpreting it, him/she through my eyes, beliefs, perspective,.../I]. Now, please make a note that I'm saying clearly that I'm talking about people who want to learn about how others view something that they might already have an opinion about. No one is trying to convince you that you must, should, view the way we do... but everyone who has pinched in this thread is simply trying to state our views and beliefs on the topic. What I mean by that was that to approach spiritual things in this manner only won't be helpful, and I explained my view it in the words of Paul, 1 Cortinthians 2. What I'm finding difficult in this communication is that a question comes, and we state things, answer, but it's not understood, our view on it it's not understood, and then we are told what we believe. Then, several principles are mixed,... now I'm explaining you the principle of revelation when we were talking about baptism and our view on it that you said our view was unbiblical. I'm almost sure by the time you respond it, something else will be pulled out from what I wrote, and questioned again... Did you read anything else past the second line of my previous post about what I wrote regarding what we believe about baptism and the Atonement of Christ?Did you hear the talk by Elder McConkie? If you haven't, please do! Elder McConkie nails it! He talks exactly about the things you question: Baptism, salvation, faith, works, etc... I can't do better than he... Interestingly enough, you made absolutely no comments on them, but my only comment about approaching spiritual things in a specific manner which is less significant than the whole thing about baptism I tried to explain. Does that mean that you understood what we believe about Baptism? That we are nothing of ourselves because we believe in faith, are obedient, do the works, but those will not save us? Depending on your next comments and answer,'I'll see if I will continue this communication or not; I feel that Elder McConkie's explanation is quite thorogh. Maybe I'm not being and don't know how to be clear enough on what our views are with you (Someone else had similar questions about ourview of baptism and I answered along with other people, and the person understood what I wrote; it seemed to me that this person was genuinely interested in learning our view on it), and maybe someone else will join to answer your questions/comments who can possibly communicate better with you. I can't keep explaining over and over the same things... and just because I fail to mention one thing that is connected with another when I'm trying to explain another, it doesn't mean they are not connected (Feelings & thinking, logic & reason) So... D&C 6 5 Therefore, if you will aask of me you shall receive; if you will knock it shall be opened unto you. May the Lord assist you in your learning and searching; He is the ONLY one who can give you what we cannot. remember to put into context your motivations for learning about "Mormonism;" I believe it can be extremly helpful to you and to the answer that you'll arrive at. Peace!

Congratulations!!!! You have beautiful children!!

Apology accepted, no problem. I agree much with Islander that these exchanges are unprofitable; if you want to leard the way we see, please read and listen carefully, and keep on reading. An intelectual/scientific approach is not helpful in trying to understand something spiritual. I'll just post this in other words to see if it helps at all: I'd just like to say that we believe that baptism by immersion by one who has authority is the gate that a person enters to make a covenant with God after having faith, and repenting, and then, qualifying to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hand by one who has authority. By fulfilling the required ordinances, then the same is reconciled to God by the Atonement of Jesus Christ that cleans us from our sins, and makes it possible to receive eternal life. "In order for us to be saved, one must rescue us," and that person was Jesus Christ. He satisfied the demands of justice in our places, and then, in His mercy, we receive forgiveness if we repent and continue in Him until the end. In order for the Atonement to have power over the person, the same must have faith, repent, and be baptized by immersion for the remission of sins and receive the Holy Ghost by one who has authority to perform the ordinances of God. We believe baptism is an ordinance that is required for salvation as the Lord taught us by giving us His own example, by going to the proper authority at the time who held the priesthood, John the Baptist, and being baptized of Him, then receiving the Holy Ghost. Another reason we believe that baptism is required is because that was preached: "Repent and be baptized..." Mark 1: 4 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Acts 2: 38 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the gHoly Ghost. But, baptism is an ordinance that by itself cannot save us; the Atonement of Christ is the means that cleans us from sin, and through obedience to the commandments He gave us, we can achieve salvation. Link (Click on Additional Info as well after opening the link): LDS.org - Topic Definition - Atonement of Jesus Christ "Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged (see 2 Nephi 2:5–10; Helaman 14:15–17). Through the Savior's gift of mercy and redeeming grace, we will all receive the gift of immortality and live forever in glorified, resurrected bodies. Although we are redeemed unconditionally from the universal effects of the Fall, we are accountable for our own sins. But we can be forgiven and cleansed from the stain of sin if we "apply the atoning blood of Christ" (Mosiah 4:2). We must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized for the remission of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. " -------------------------- * Elder Bruce R. McConkie - What Think Ye of Salvation by Grace? - Link:Audio Formats -------------------------- I finish this, and make Paul's words mine (Emphasis added): 1 Corinthians 2 1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the atestimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, asave Jesus Christ, and him bcrucified. 3 And I was with you in aweakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my aspeech and my preaching was not with benticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the cSpirit and of dpower: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the apower of God. 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are aperfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the awisdom of God in a bmystery, even the hidden cwisdom, which God dordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have acrucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, aEye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath bprepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath arevealed them unto us by his bSpirit: for the cSpirit dsearcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man aknoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God bknoweth no man, cbut the dSpirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the aspirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s awisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost bteacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the anatural man breceiveth not the things of the cSpirit of God: for they are dfoolishness unto him: neither can he eknow them, because they are fspiritually gdiscerned. 15 But he that is spiritual ajudgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may ainstruct him? But we have the bmind of Christ. I hope this helps!

I'd just like to say that we believe that baptism by immersion by one who has authority is the gate that a person enters to make a covenant with God after having faith, and repenting, and then, qualifying to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hand by one who has authority. By fulfilling the required ordinances, then the same is reconciled to God by the Atonement of Jesus Christ that cleans us from our sins, and makes it possible to receive eternal life. "In order for us to be saved, one must rescue us," and that person was Jesus Christ. He satisfied the demands of justice in our places, and then, in His mercy, we receive forgiveness if we repent and continue in Him until the end. In order for the Atonement to have power over the person, the same must have faith, repent, and be baptized by immersion for the remission of sins and receive the Holy Ghost by one who has authority to perform the ordinances of God. We believe baptism is an ordinance that is required for salvation as the Lord taught us by giving us His own example, by going to the proper authority at the time who held the priesthood, John the Baptist, and being baptized of Him, then receiving the Holy Ghost. Another reason we believe that baptism is required is because that was preached: "Repent and be baptized..." Mark 1: 4 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Acts 2: 38 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the gHoly Ghost. But, baptism is an ordinance that by itself cannot save us; the Atonement of Christ is the means that cleans us from sin, and through obedience to the commandments He gave us, we can achieve salvation. Link (Click on Additional Info as well after opening the link): LDS.org - Topic Definition - Atonement of Jesus Christ "Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged (see 2 Nephi 2:5–10; Helaman 14:15–17). Through the Savior's gift of mercy and redeeming grace, we will all receive the gift of immortality and live forever in glorified, resurrected bodies. Although we are redeemed unconditionally from the universal effects of the Fall, we are accountable for our own sins. But we can be forgiven and cleansed from the stain of sin if we "apply the atoning blood of Christ" (Mosiah 4:2). We must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized for the remission of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. " * Talk by Elder Bruce R. McConkie - What Think Ye of Salvation by Grace? - Link: Audio Formats I hope this helps!

Hello LO WF gave you great suggestions as the first one was: 1) The purpose of our Heavenly Father. Moses 1:39 39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. ------ I would like to mention along with that: Our purpose: D&C 11 20 Behold, this is your work, to keep my commandments, yea, with all your might, mind and strength. Just a thought! Wish you too well!

Holy Ghost The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. He is a personage of spirit, without a body of flesh and bones. He is often referred to as the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, or the Comforter. Roles of the Holy Ghost The Holy Ghost works in perfect unity with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, fulfilling several roles to help us live righteously and receive the blessings of the gospel. He "witnesses of the Father and the Son" (2 Nephi 31:18) and reveals and teaches "the truth of all things" (Moroni 10:5). We can receive a sure testimony of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ only by the power of the Holy Ghost. His communication to our spirit carries far more certainty than any communication we can receive through our natural senses. As we strive to stay on the path that leads to eternal life, the Holy Ghost can guide us in our decisions and protect us from physical and spiritual danger. Through Him, we can receive gifts of the Spirit for our benefit and for the benefit of those we love and serve (see D&C 46:9–11). He is the Comforter (John 14:26). As the soothing voice of a loving parent can quiet a crying child, the whisperings of the Spirit can calm our fears, hush the nagging worries of our life, and comfort us when we grieve. The Holy Ghost can fill us "with hope and perfect love" and "teach [us] the peaceable things of the kingdom" (Moroni 8:26; D&C 36:2). Through His power, we are sanctified as we repent, receive the ordinances of baptism and confirmation, and remain true to our covenants (see Mosiah 5:1–6; 3 Nephi 27:20; Moses 6:64–68). He is the Holy Spirit of Promise (see Ephesians 1:13; D&C 132:7, 18–19, 26). In this capacity, He confirms that the priesthood ordinances we have received and the covenants we have made are acceptable to God. This approval depends on our continued faithfulness. The Gift of the Holy Ghost All honest seekers of the truth can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost, leading them to Jesus Christ and His gospel. However, the fulness of the blessings given through the Holy Ghost are available only to those who receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and remain worthy. After a person is baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, one or more Melchizedek Priesthood holders lay their hands on the person's head and, in a sacred priesthood ordinance, confirm him or her a member of the Church. As part of this ordinance, called confirmation, the person is given the gift of the Holy Ghost. The gift of the Holy Ghost is different from the influence of the Holy Ghost. Before baptism, a person can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost from time to time and through that influence can receive a testimony of the truth. After receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, a person has the right to the constant companionship of that member of the Godhead if he or she keeps the commandments. See also Baptism; Godhead; Laying On of Hands; Revelation; Spiritual Gifts —See True to the Faith (2004), 81–84 Scripture References Matthew 3:11; John 15:26; 16:13; Acts 2:38; 8:12–17; 19:1–6; 1 Corinthians 2:9–14; 12:3; Galatians 5:22–23; 1 Nephi 10:17–19; 2 Nephi 31:17; D&C 8:2–3; 39:20–24; 68:25–28; 121:46; Articles of Faith 1:4