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  1. I have not considered this or was I aware that those whose mental age is below 8 can have their proxy baptism performed after their death. That is interesting though. At the moment I don't know what to make of that. Good question. I think we should take the scripture at face value. I think it means what it says and says what it means. I think there is an answer to the "why do any baptisms for the dead" but I don't have time right now. My point at the moment though, is to demonstrate that according to Mormon theology there are individuals who can and have received the Holy Spirit without the water baptism ordinance having been performed. Also, my point is to demonstrate that the baptism by the Spirit or by fire is the essential and necessary ordinance and that without this component, the water baptism is incomplete or not valid. I don't believe there is a conflict. When I have more time I can expound on my thoughts more; although you may be able to deduce why I believe there is no conflict from what I've written already. -Finrock
  2. That is unlikely given what we have in the scriptures, unless of course the scripture is incorrect. Alvin Smith was already in the Celestial Kingdom, without being baptized for the remission of sins. The scriptures I quoted say plainly that they don't need baptism. They do not qualify that with "in this life". The scripture I quoted plainly states that a person will be judged based on their heart and their works, not based on what ordinances/rituals they performed. Further, children who die before the age of accountability are saved in the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized, not even by proxy. If you have a child who has died before the age of accountability, there is no ordinance work that is needed for them. In fact, the Church indicates in Family Search that ordinances, such as baptism, are not needed for these children. You can't do the work for them even if you wanted to. Not to mention it would make no sense to perform an ordinance that is not required. As Mormon says it would be mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ and denying the power of the Holy Spirit to do so. -Finrock
  3. Thanks, zil. I was messing around with it last night and I was able to figure some things. I appreciate your directions. -Finrock
  4. What if I quote a post and then add another quote? -Finrock
  5. Okay, so it appears that the website prefers that I use the "quote" button to insert quotes that are separated and not jumbled. Is there another way? Is there any way to assign the quote to a person or to a source like in the olden days? Thanks! -Finrock
  6. Comments More comments End test -Finrock
  7. <quote="test">Is this the way to do it?</quote> -Finrock
  8. This is really a way for me to learn how to use quotes on this website. I used to be able to do the following (without the brackets) and quote a person: ( ) and that would work. Now it doesn't add the person or source I am quoting, and my quotes get all jumbled up. So, how do you do it? <quote="Test">Is this the right way?</quote> Test post one. -Finrock
  9. The outward or physical ordinance does not save us. There are two baptisms, at least. One is the water baptism, the other is the baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost. The baptism by the Spirit, is the one that matters. As Anddenex eluded to in his post, "[a]ll covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise...are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead" (D&C 132:7). To enter in at the strait gate means to be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. A baptism is only valid if it has been sealed by the Holy Spirit. This does not automatically happen just because a person with proper authority has performed the ritual. This only happens when one has a broken heart and a contrite spirit or has become as a little child. Are there people who have received the Holy Ghost without being baptized in to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Absolutely! First, let me point out that anyone who is saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God has, by definition, received the Holy Ghost. So, little children and children who die before the age of accountability and those who are without the law need not to be baptized. The power of redemption comes on all them that have no law and they are not condemned and cannot repent, therefore baptism means nothing to them. All children who have died before the age of accountability, will never need to be baptized, not even by proxy. This is also true for people who have the mental capacity of a child. They will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom without ever needing to be baptized. Remember, being saved in the Celestial Kingdom means that you have received the Holy Spirit. Receiving the Holy Spirit is the prerequisite for entering in at the gate, or having access to the Celestial Kingdom. But, it's not just children who die before the age of accountability or individuals with the mental capacity of a child who are saved without baptism... Notice the gate that is described in D&C 137. It is a gate of fire, and all must pass through that fire to enter the Celestial Kingdom. If they are there, they were baptized by fire and received the Holy Ghost and yet they were baptized by fire and received the Holy Ghost without the ordinance of water baptism, not even by proxy. So, it is a fact in Mormon theology that millions will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized by water in to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not even by proxy. Here is one apparent example from the scriptures speaking about valid water baptism performed by Sidney Rigdon, but without the Spirit attending the baptism: -Finrock
  10. Hi Vort, A couple of things, at least, mitigate what you are saying. First, performing the outward or physical ordinances don't mean squat without the Spirit. Second, millions, if not billions, of people have and/or will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost without ever being baptized in to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. -Finrock
  11. This might have already been said, but get in touch with the Missionaries. Have them teach you the lessons they would teach to a new member or even teach the regular discussions that they teach to investigators. They can help you get up to speed, teach you, answer questions, and get you connected to the right people and/or resources. -Finrock
  12. Thanks Anddenex. I use to say the phrase just because it was what you say, but, currently I am not a fan of that phrase either. As I read the verse D&C 1:30, it technically does not exclude other churches as being true. It affirms that the Church spoken of in D&C 1:30 is the only true and living church with which the Lord is well pleased, but it does not actually deny that other true and living churches exist. Do you think that this verse leaves room for there to be other true and living churches with which the Lord is simply pleased, or displeased, or not well pleased? That particular verse also seems to leave room for churches that are true, but not necessarily living. What do you think? -Finrock
  13. Okay. So, you are saying that the phrase "the Church is true" means that it is the only Church with which the Lord is well pleased? -Finrock
  14. Hi MormonGator, I apologize if I wasn't clear about what I was asking. I was not asking if there is objective truth in general. I believe there is objective truth. We hear and say the phrase, "the Church is true". Was does this phrase mean? It appears to me that this means different things to different people. I was then further asking if there is a universal or objective meaning of the phrase, "the Church is true" or is it subjective only? (Meaning, the phrase, "The Church is true"). Hope that clarifies what I was asking. -Finrock