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Everything posted by Finrock

  1. I have not considered this or was I aware that those whose mental age is below 8 can have their proxy baptism performed after their death. That is interesting though. At the moment I don't know what to make of that. Good question. I think we should take the scripture at face value. I think it means what it says and says what it means. I think there is an answer to the "why do any baptisms for the dead" but I don't have time right now. My point at the moment though, is to demonstrate that according to Mormon theology there are individuals who can and have received the Holy Spirit without the water baptism ordinance having been performed. Also, my point is to demonstrate that the baptism by the Spirit or by fire is the essential and necessary ordinance and that without this component, the water baptism is incomplete or not valid. I don't believe there is a conflict. When I have more time I can expound on my thoughts more; although you may be able to deduce why I believe there is no conflict from what I've written already. -Finrock
  2. That is unlikely given what we have in the scriptures, unless of course the scripture is incorrect. Alvin Smith was already in the Celestial Kingdom, without being baptized for the remission of sins. The scriptures I quoted say plainly that they don't need baptism. They do not qualify that with "in this life". The scripture I quoted plainly states that a person will be judged based on their heart and their works, not based on what ordinances/rituals they performed. Further, children who die before the age of accountability are saved in the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized, not even by proxy. If you have a child who has died before the age of accountability, there is no ordinance work that is needed for them. In fact, the Church indicates in Family Search that ordinances, such as baptism, are not needed for these children. You can't do the work for them even if you wanted to. Not to mention it would make no sense to perform an ordinance that is not required. As Mormon says it would be mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ and denying the power of the Holy Spirit to do so. -Finrock
  3. Thanks, zil. I was messing around with it last night and I was able to figure some things. I appreciate your directions. -Finrock
  4. What if I quote a post and then add another quote? -Finrock
  5. Okay, so it appears that the website prefers that I use the "quote" button to insert quotes that are separated and not jumbled. Is there another way? Is there any way to assign the quote to a person or to a source like in the olden days? Thanks! -Finrock
  6. Comments More comments End test -Finrock
  7. <quote="test">Is this the way to do it?</quote> -Finrock
  8. This is really a way for me to learn how to use quotes on this website. I used to be able to do the following (without the brackets) and quote a person: ( ) and that would work. Now it doesn't add the person or source I am quoting, and my quotes get all jumbled up. So, how do you do it? <quote="Test">Is this the right way?</quote> Test post one. -Finrock
  9. The outward or physical ordinance does not save us. There are two baptisms, at least. One is the water baptism, the other is the baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost. The baptism by the Spirit, is the one that matters. As Anddenex eluded to in his post, "[a]ll covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise...are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead" (D&C 132:7). To enter in at the strait gate means to be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. A baptism is only valid if it has been sealed by the Holy Spirit. This does not automatically happen just because a person with proper authority has performed the ritual. This only happens when one has a broken heart and a contrite spirit or has become as a little child. Are there people who have received the Holy Ghost without being baptized in to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Absolutely! First, let me point out that anyone who is saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God has, by definition, received the Holy Ghost. So, little children and children who die before the age of accountability and those who are without the law need not to be baptized. The power of redemption comes on all them that have no law and they are not condemned and cannot repent, therefore baptism means nothing to them. All children who have died before the age of accountability, will never need to be baptized, not even by proxy. This is also true for people who have the mental capacity of a child. They will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom without ever needing to be baptized. Remember, being saved in the Celestial Kingdom means that you have received the Holy Spirit. Receiving the Holy Spirit is the prerequisite for entering in at the gate, or having access to the Celestial Kingdom. But, it's not just children who die before the age of accountability or individuals with the mental capacity of a child who are saved without baptism... Notice the gate that is described in D&C 137. It is a gate of fire, and all must pass through that fire to enter the Celestial Kingdom. If they are there, they were baptized by fire and received the Holy Ghost and yet they were baptized by fire and received the Holy Ghost without the ordinance of water baptism, not even by proxy. So, it is a fact in Mormon theology that millions will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized by water in to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not even by proxy. Here is one apparent example from the scriptures speaking about valid water baptism performed by Sidney Rigdon, but without the Spirit attending the baptism: -Finrock
  10. Hi Vort, A couple of things, at least, mitigate what you are saying. First, performing the outward or physical ordinances don't mean squat without the Spirit. Second, millions, if not billions, of people have and/or will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost without ever being baptized in to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. -Finrock
  11. This might have already been said, but get in touch with the Missionaries. Have them teach you the lessons they would teach to a new member or even teach the regular discussions that they teach to investigators. They can help you get up to speed, teach you, answer questions, and get you connected to the right people and/or resources. -Finrock
  12. Thanks Anddenex. I use to say the phrase just because it was what you say, but, currently I am not a fan of that phrase either. As I read the verse D&C 1:30, it technically does not exclude other churches as being true. It affirms that the Church spoken of in D&C 1:30 is the only true and living church with which the Lord is well pleased, but it does not actually deny that other true and living churches exist. Do you think that this verse leaves room for there to be other true and living churches with which the Lord is simply pleased, or displeased, or not well pleased? That particular verse also seems to leave room for churches that are true, but not necessarily living. What do you think? -Finrock
  13. Okay. So, you are saying that the phrase "the Church is true" means that it is the only Church with which the Lord is well pleased? -Finrock
  14. Hi MormonGator, I apologize if I wasn't clear about what I was asking. I was not asking if there is objective truth in general. I believe there is objective truth. We hear and say the phrase, "the Church is true". Was does this phrase mean? It appears to me that this means different things to different people. I was then further asking if there is a universal or objective meaning of the phrase, "the Church is true" or is it subjective only? (Meaning, the phrase, "The Church is true"). Hope that clarifies what I was asking. -Finrock
  15. I often hear this said and I've said it myself as well, but what does the phrase, "The Church is true" actually mean? What does it mean to you? Is there even such a thing as an objective definition/meaning of the phrase, "The Church is true"? Curious to know what others think. -Finrock
  16. Essentially the same thing. The rock upon which the Church is built, is the Spirit. The Spirit is the voice of God. The words of Christ, are Spirit. The Spirit is what Jesus Christ received and followed. The Spirit is how we get to know Christ. You should be aware that there are three phases to the Light of Christ: Prophets are prophets because of the testimony of Jesus, which can only come from the Spirit. Prophets are prophets when they speak by the Spirit. Otherwise, they are just men voicing their opinions. The Spirit is what the prophet follows. Scriptures come by revelation, which comes by the Spirit. The Spirit is the voice of God. When the Spirit speaks, God speaks. When the Spirit says something, it is scripture. The words which Jesus speaks, are spoke by the power of the Holy Ghost. If you are following Christ, you are following the Holy Spirit. We know Jesus is Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost. All truth is know through the Spirit. You confirm the words of scripture and the words of prophets through the Spirit. You can't know the scriptures are true without the Spirit. Spirit matters most. It is the rock upon which if we build, we cannot fall. The Spirit of Christ is what we must obtain and retain. God, Christ, Spirit is what we can absolutely rely on and where we should be putting all of our faith and hope in to. -Finrock
  17. Better than any mortal or fallible man or group of men, is the Holy Spirit. Mortals, to include prophets, can and do make mistakes, hence they are capable of leading us astray. The Holy Spirit does not make mistakes. The Holy Spirit never falters or fails. The Holy Spirit never lies or never is wrong. We can put complete trust in the Holy Spirit. Follow the Spirit above all else and no matter what happens in the world around you, you will be okay. The foundation upon which if we build then we cannot fall, is the Spirit. -Finrock
  18. And this not grudgingly. -Finrock
  19. Being filled with the Spirit, means being filled with God's power, which is priesthood. Millions of individuals full of the Spirit of God, or full of God's power, can't be messed with, to put it in mundane terms. And when I say full, I mean full. -Finrock
  20. This may seem selfish, but I pray because God is my friend that I can trust and depend on. I often ask for His advice on many situations in life. Like, I might be struggling with my feelings or with a family member. I can talk to Him about anything. I know He understands me. I know He loves me. I trust Him completely. I love that He listens to me. He has a way of making feel better whenever I am in need of relief. Praying to God helps me feel connected and as being a part of a family. He talks back to me, gives me ideas. He provides a better way to handle or deal with things. He shows me my weaknesses, but never punitively, or with anger, contempt, or anything of the sort. I love Him, so I pray to Him. I understand that He knows the beginning from the end, but I don't know the beginning from the end. So, I pray to Him to find out what I don't know. I know He doesn't mind and is happy to reveal things to me. -Finrock
  21. I love your attitude, your sincerity, and pure intent. Almost brings me to tears. All will work out for you to go on a mission. Don't worry. -Finrock
  22. It might be helpful to view the Book of Mormon less as a story with a plot, but more as a collection of personal journal entries specifically selected to primarily teach the most essential and the most necessary aspect of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This most essential and necessary aspect of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through which all other blessings and promises flow is identified in a multitude of ways in the Book of Mormon: Broken heart and a contrite spirit = Remission of sins = baptism by fire = Born again = Conversion = Entering in at the gate = being on the strait and narrow path = Receiving the Holy Ghost = Obtaining the Holy Ghost = Mighty Change of Heart = Saved Being baptized by fire (not just water) and receiving the Holy Ghost is the first principle and ordinance of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Through and through you will see this theme represent, discussed, fleshed out, and repeated. Other things discussed but connected: Examples of what it means to have the Holy Ghost. How the Holy Ghost is connected to priesthood power. Gifts of the Spirit. The signs that follow receiving the Holy Ghost. What we can look for in our life to know if we have the Holy Ghost. Examples of what we can accomplish with the gift of the Holy Ghost. Examples of how people obtained a broken heart and a contrite spirit. What it takes to be baptized by fire and to receive the Holy Ghost. Trials that will follow once you are baptized by fire and receive the Holy Ghost. Showing that there is more and that being baptized by fire and receiving the Holy Ghost is just the beginning or entering in at the gate and being on the correct path. In short, the Book of Mormon is primarily teaching us the doctrine of Christ which Jesus summarized like this:
  23. It most definitely helps to freely and openly talk about your abuse under the right circumstances. I would say for most victims of abuse in order for them to get healing they must break free from the silence, the shame, and the fear. Abuse thrives in secrecy and will continue to afflict and torment the victim if left in the dark. Exposing this stuff is a critical step in transitioning from a victim to a survivor. It can be uncomfortable for some to hear some of these things, but, life sometimes sucks and crappy things happen. Those who have been victims can benefit greatly from hearing from those who have healed and are now survivors and are no longer afflicted, pained, or harmed from the abuse. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't mean that we need to speak about all of the details freely and openly in every circumstance, but, in the appropriate place and time and to the appropriate people, getting all of that stuff out in detail is a critical step. It needs to be exposed to the full light of the day in order to truly start dealing with it and healing from it. -Finrock
  24. I was also severely abused as a child and for a very good portion of my life I felt that God was just so far away and that I was unworthy, worthless, and not privy or deserving of God's love. My prayers were often just frustrated attempts to do what I was supposed to do. The abuse I suffered really put me in to a dark place. Ultimately I was healed through the atonement of Jesus Christ, but what helped me to begin the process of healing was going to therapy and finally exposing and speaking about the things that happened to me. It was a great struggle to get to a point where I was able to forgive my abusers. I received a lot of help from my leaders and from therapy. So, I think that is a good idea. I will say this, though, is that for me just therapy was not enough. Therapy helped me to start talking about my abuse, writing about it, receiving some tools to help cope, and getting thoughts and ideas that helped me to resolve feelings. As I mentioned, though, what ultimately brought healing and provided me power to forgive and move on, was my faith in Jesus Christ and having a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and then calling out to God for healing and relief. This post is not adequate to really describe or give a proper understanding of this process, but there finally was an event that resulted in me receiving a remission of my sins and to be baptized by fire and receive the Holy Ghost. The conditions for being baptized by fire and receiving the Holy Ghost is a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We can expect, then, in our life, to have situations that will break our hearts. It is up to us to then decide to have a contrite spirit and reach out to Jesus Christ to heal us. He does deliver and will deliver. He is mighty to save and has power over all things. I pray for you and I truly do desire that you will find healing from what has happened to you in the past. Resolving trauma is a big thing and living with an abusive past that is unresolved can totally be a barrier to us feeling God's love. Because I know God is not a respecter of persons, I can confidently say that I know God is with you and has been by your side constantly and if you haven't seen it yet, one day you will see how much He has indeed been blessing, guiding, and loving you. Once you can get to a point of healing, it becomes much easier to see and feel God in your life on a daily basis. God continues to sustain me day to day and without Him I would still be lost, would probably get lost again, and would be nothing. Sincerely, -Finrock