Finrock

Good afternoon HiJolly! I hope you are well today. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. :) If you are not saying what I've presented, then what are you saying? I wasn't speaking to that at all. The point I am making is that the Church of Jesus Christ isn't the collection of it's members. It exist independent of it's members. So saying that a member of the Church did this or that sin does not affect the Church's ontological position. I do not deny that the Church of the Firstborn is very important I only contend that I do not see how it is relevant to the dicussion or why it matters in context. In so far as authoritative, I only mean that the understanding that is being presented about the Church of the Firstborn is simply being asserted as being correct without any authoritative support for why that point of view is correct. Regards, Finrock

Hello InquisitiveSoul! I hope you are well today. :) I'm chuckling at myself because I'm starting to feel like I'm the "InquisitiveSoul" fanboy! Seriously, your posts are spot on and I am thoroughly enjoying seeing what appears to me to be your conversion! I love the Preach My Gospel manual. On page 97 it states that President Hinckley answers the question: "How do we recognize the promptings of the Spirit?" by reading Moroni 7:13, 16-17. President Hinckley then states: Thank you InquisitiveSoul for your Spirit filled words. Kind Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon MsQwerty. It is a pleasure to meet you! :) It would appear that I am one of those dumb donkeys that you are referring to. Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon Carl62. It is a pleasure to meet you! :) I think, in some sense, your line of reasoning is falling in to the same folly that many of the Pharisees fell in to during the mortal ministry of Jesus. This folly is legalism. In short it is where all religious activities are precisely defined and prescribed. The gospel of Jesus Christ isn't legalistic, although there are most certainly eternal principles, we are mostly left to apply these principles in our lives following the dictates of the Spirit and the Light of Christ that all of us have. The issue of where and when should we wear our garments hasn't been dictated specifically. We are given the general counsel that we should wear our garments. In most cases it is up to the individual to determine how this general counsel is applied in daily life and activities. My best advice would be search your feelings and pray for guidance to know through the Holy Ghost what God expects of you in regards to wearing the garment and try to follow the general counsel that our leaders have given the best that you can. Regards, Finrock

rameumptom and HiJolly. Good afternoon gentlemen! :) Although I appreciate the points you two are making countering sd22 assertion, I do think your arguments are equivocating. Let me try to show why I think this. Please consider: sd22 is making the following assertion: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is perfect." In response it seems to me that you two are making the following assertion: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint is not perfect because individuals X, Y, Z have committed sin and are imperfect." sd22 is speaking to a "church". Your counter arguments are speaking to "individuals". Your counter arguments are therefore irrelevant to sd22's position. May I suggest that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints exist independently of the individual members. If you are to contend that the actual Church is imperfect, then you must illustrate it independent of the individual members. I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is perfect and infallible, but I also believe that not all of it's members are perfect and infallible. Now you also are making some points concerning the Church of the Firstborn. I'm not sure how relevant they are and I'm also not sure your explanation or apparent understanding of the subject matter is authoritative. Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon personne. It is a pleasure to meet you! :) This is a very sad story. I did not enjoy reading it. I can only imagine how difficult of a decision this must have been for your family. Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon InquisitiveSoul. I hope you are well today! :) Before I comment on what you've posted on this thread, I hope you don't mind if I briefly write about some observations I've made about your posts that I've read so far. It seems to me that you are beginning to see, hear, and understand things in a way that perhaps you have not done so in the past. I think you are making connections and understanding points of spirituality that many people who may have been members of the LDS Church for all of their lives have not yet made. If I may be so bold as to say that I believe that I see the Spirit working in you to bring principles and truths to your understanding. I think this is wonderful. If you recall from one of the other threads that you started I commented on the principle that a large part of this life is us discerning truth and light and then acting on that knowledge once it is gained. There is a principle of increasing the light and truth that we receive. This increase in light and truth comes by means of obedience. God gives us basic principles at first for us accept and obey. When we accept and obey these basic principles, more knowledge and more light is given to us. To help illustrate what I'm talking about we can compare the law of tithing to the law of consecration. The law of tithing is that we are to pay a tenth of all our income to the Church. Accepting and living the law of tithing is a prerequisite to baptism. It is also a prerequisite to receiving a Temple Recommend and going to the temple to receive our Endowment. All of this assumes that one has received the truth of living the law of the tithe and are obediently living this law. Now, I do not know the level of your understanding of the Endowment ceremony that is performed in the temple, so I will give a brief fundamental description of it. The Endowment ceremony involves a person receiving further instruction (further truth and light) pertaining to this life and life's purpose. Like most things in the gospel this truth and light is received through covenants. A person makes additional covenants with God because they have received a higher instruction that places that individual in a position of more responsibility and accountability. Of course, these instructions and covenants also result in greater blessings and promises from God. This brings us to the law of consecration. It is one of the laws that a person covenants with God to live when they receive their endowment. Here we could rightly say that wherein the law of tithing is the "lower law" the law of consecration is the "higher law". The law of consecration doesn't just require a tenth of our income, but it requires that we give all that we have, all of our time, and all of our effort to God to building up His kingdom and bringing to pass His purposes. So, yes, as we receive truth, accept it, and live by it God gives us more and requires more from us. These "higher laws" we receive by covenant wherein we promise to obey and God promises to bless us further. This is one reason why you come across so many varying levels of understanding of doctrine and truth within the Church and how these principles should be applied because not all persons have equally advanced in their path to exaltation. But, it should be our goal as disciples of Christ to receive and live all things that God would have us receive and live by so that our understanding can grow and we can become like Him. Yes, having more truth and light places us in a position of greater accountability and responsibility, but it is the way of the Master and true disciples do not shrink from this reality. Sorry for the long post. I hope you made it to the end. Kind Regards, Finrock

I have no problems killing animals for food. I feel good about it each time I eat a piece of meat. I think the kangaroo is A-OK based on the video. Nothing sick or disgusting about it. I would gladly pay money to take my kids to see the show and I would feel very good about it afterwards. Regards, Finrock

Good morning selfhelp123! I hope you are doing well today. :) Thanks for taking the time to respond to a portion of my questions! So you define something that is right as being anything that does not harm another person or yourself. Is that correct? What is this "little voice" that supposedly exists inside our heads? This is circular reasoning. Can you make your point without using your conclusion as a premise? Thinking positively is synonymous with being optimistic, so stating: "Thinking positively is being optimistic in your life" is obviously true, but it is also logically fallacious and not helpful in defining or describing what "thinking positively" actually is. Suppose I had no idea what thinking positively means? What is positive thinking? What constitutes a positive thought? If I think about an addition problem, am I thinking positively? Also, we need to know what qualifies something as being "inspirational" or "motivational"? I'm looking for substance, not cliches. Regards, Finrock

Hello selfhelp123! I hope you are doing well. :) I get the impression that you are trying to promote something here... My honest opinion is that you've said much without any substance. I hope you don't mind if I ask some questions for clarification: 1. What is the "right thing" that we should be doing? 2. What does it mean to "think positively"? 3. What are "inspirational phrases and quotes"? 4. How does one use their "minds" to figure out what is right and what is wrong? Regards, Finrock

Fair Tax without a Constitutional Amendment forbidding an income tax would be a horrendous mistake. Regards, Finrock

Meditation plays an important role in our spiritual life. Meditation can be many things to many people. I would suggest that LDS do not practice a form of meditation that centers on repetitive sounds, postures, and phrases. For example, in some Eastern Orthodox traditions there is a form of meditation and prayer called the "Jesus Prayer" where a neophyte begins his journey towards experiencing the "Light of God" by going through different phases by repeating the prayer "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me" either out loud or in one's mind. I think this form of meditation is foreign to an LDS perspective. Meditation would be one of quite pondering and reflecting on the words of Christ. Meditation also would include "listening" to those feelings and impressions that the Spirit might be communicating to you. It can include solitude and fasting. We believe in the law of the harvest. We reap what we sow. Our "reward" is not a result of karma but rather it is a result of obedience to eternal laws and the natural consequences of obedience to those laws and also gifts from our Heavenly Father. Joseph Smith taught that, "[t]here is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated" (D&C 130:20-21). Regards, Finrock

I think the Church's position is that the requirements it has for membership are those things that God requires of His disciples. When a person is baptized in to the Church of Jesus Christ, they become disciples of Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples...(John 8:31). When Jesus spoke to Peter and his brother Andrew while they were fishing, saying, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men" they "...straightway left their nets, and followed [Jesus] (Matt. 4:19, 20). Discipleship has always required a man or a woman to forsake all things for the sake of following the Savior. Lehi in the Book of Mormon describes a dream he had about the Tree of Life. In it, many people sought to obtain the fruit of the tree. They began their journey by grasping on to the rod of iron that lead to the tree. This rod of iron represents the word of God. As they travelled towards the tree, a mist of darkness arose and the people were engulfed in this darkness, unable to see ahead. This darkness represents the temptation and trials of life. Many lost their way in the darkness, letting go of the rod of iron to go after strange paths or to follow their own lusts. But, those that clung to the rod, were lead out of the darkness and to the tree of life and were able to partake of the fruit. This dream further illustrates to us that the path to true happiness, peace, and joy is difficult and requires us to have and exercise strong faith, clinging, desperately at times, on to the word of God (His commandments) even when we can not see the path ahead of us. Discipleship is a trial and when we choose to become a disciple we are covenanting with God that we will always keep His commandments regardless of the circumstances. In return, God promises us His Spirit to strengthen us during our trials, forgiveness, and eventually eternal life (1 Nephi 8, 11). This is a very astute and spiritually mature observation. I'm impressed. We read in our scriptures that, "[t]hat which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day" (D&C 50:24). It is part of our life's purpose to discern between light and darkness and to cleave on to that which is true or which is light. "For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light...(D&C 88:40). We learn to embrace more truth and more light as we accept truth and light. This is the way of obedience. God gives us commandments and we obey. When we obey He blesses us with more truth and light. As we embrace this truth and light, we grow in our capacity to receive more, until, as God states, "the perfect day", when we shall, "see as [we] are seen, and know as [we] are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace" (D&C 76:94; see also 1 Cor. 13:12). Regards, Finrock

If I were a woman, I wouldn't be a man. Regards, Finrock

I believe so, at least in the "strange" doctrine part. Of course, my answer is conditioned on what you mean, exactly, but I can generally agree with your assestment. I think a classic example of this is when Abraham was asked to sacrifice his only son. When it was clear that Abraham would obey, God intervened and stopped Abraham from going through with it. Yet, this was an "unusual" request that God asked of Abraham to test Abraham's faith and commitment to God. Regards, Finrock

Good morning InquisitiveSoul! I hope you are doing well. I appreciate your observations, questions, and the general manner you have been approaching your investigation of the church! :) Like most things in religion and the LDS beliefs, tithing is a matter of faith. Tithing makes no sense when viewed without the eyes of faith. In fact in the context of your example it would appear to contradict economical sense to pay tithing when struggling with finances. I can only speak on my personal experience here. I have been in situations several times in my life where finances were strained. My wife and I lived off of roughly 13-18K a year (early 2000's) for the first few years of our marriage with 2 children to boot. I was laid off for 6 months at one time. Regardless of our financial circumstances, we always paid a full tithe of any income we made. Without fail we always had everything we needed and were provided for to pay our bills and make due. This didn't mean that we didn't have to make sacrifices, but we have continued to have all that we need and much of what we want. I cannot say that I have ever "felt" poor. I know that this has been a direct blessing of us paying our tithing even when it seemed impossible to do while maintaning our home, utilities, food, etc. Regards, Finrock

Good morning applepansy! I hope you are doing well. :) The issue with the question isn't a matter of providing a specific definition, per se, but a matter of providing at least a basic sense. In other words it is a matter of equivocation. Equivocating is, for instance, when a word or term is used in one sense at the beginning of an argument/discussion but then that sense of the word is changed at the end of the argument/discussion. So, what people have been trying to find out from you is in what "sense" are you using the terms "right and wrong". Providing the "sense" doesn't require you to define it exactly. It requires you to specify how exactly are you intending to use those terms. If the terms right and wrong were unambiguous (meaning there was only one sense in which they could be used) then there would be no confusion or question as to how you were using those terms. Further, your responses have mixed the senses of the terms "right and wrong" therefore making it extremely difficult to do any sort of sense disambiguation using the context of your examples. For instance you postulate that "no definition of right and wrong is required" to continue the discussion. Later you postulate that you aren't speaking necessarily of right and wrong in a moral context. Yet, your examples of right and wrong are placed in a moral context. For instance your examples speak of Satan muddying the waters. I can think of no other context to place right and wrong accept in a moral context when speaking of "Satan muddying the waters" of right and wrong causing people to not understand right and wrong. Yet when asked to clarify if you are using right and wrong in a moral sense, you deny that you necessarily are. Quite literally your position has been nonsensical because your position is persistently equivocating. It is logically fallacious to equivocate. This is essentially why your question has been met with such confusion and "frustration" and justifiably so, I might add. OK, now that I've gotten that out I'll try and answer your question: "Is right and wrong subjective or objective?" Well, it depends. What does it depend on? It depends on how you are using the terms right and wrong because right and wrong do not have a single sense in which they are used, therefore we must clarify the words if we are to have a intelligent discussion about this matter. Else, we will be speaking past each other. In a moral sense, right and wrong are objective. In a mathematical sense, right and wrong are objective. In other senses of the words, right and wrong can be subjective. For instance, when dealing with personal tastes. Regards, Finrock

Good evening Traveler. I hope you are doing well! :) The Church defines a calling as "[a] duty, position, or responsibility in the Church that is issued to a member by priesthood leaders." (Emphasis added; Source). Further the 5th article of faith reads that "We believe a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof" (A of F 5). Accepting the Church definition of "calling" the proposition "No man chooses his calling" is an analytic truth. The concept "calling" contains the concept "that it is issued by priesthood leaders". Therefore the proposition "We choose our callings" is contradictory and therefore is false. However, I believe that the proposition "We can choose to accept or reject our callings" is true. Regards, Finrock

Good evening Inquisitivesoul. It is a pleasure to meet you and welcome to the forums! :) The thread you started about Laban and Nephi was locked, however, I wanted to direct you to another part of this forum where a Jew who we know as thekabalist, has been sharing his insights as he reads the Book of Mormon for the first time. He provides an explanation of the events in question from a Jewish perspective. You should understand that thekabalist is a scholar in ancient Judaism and Jewish scriptures. In fact, he is a Rabbi. His insights have been very helpful and I believe you will find them helpful as well. As a side note, I wanted to comment that for me Nephi is one of my greatest heroes and examples of what being a true disciple of Christ is like. I could not and would not feel this way if I felt Nephi was a murderer or evil. Of course you will need to discover this for yourself but I would encourage you to continue to keep an open mind and heart as you read and perhaps thekabalist's comments can help you to understand what you may not understand at the moment. Here is the link to his commentary: 1 Nephi Chapter 4 If you want to read his commentary starting from the beginning of the Book of Mormon go here. Regards, Finrock

Good evening Tamiele. It is a pleasure to meet you! :) I want to share with you an experience that I had. As you read you may initially think what does home teaching have to do with church attendance, but I promise I will try to tie the two together in the end! I remember not too long ago whenever I would get a new home teaching list I would look at it with a certain feeling of trepidation. I guess the best way to describe my feelings was: "Here is another list of things that I have to "worry" about in my life." Anyways, the idea was that I wasn't very excited at all about home teaching. Because I felt that visiting all of these people on my home teaching list was too cumbersome and time consuming I would only make a halfhearted effort each month, if even that, to visit my families. Of course I couldn't escape the feelings of guilt that I felt. I would try to ignore them but I knew I wasn't doing and being as I should and this only increased my annoyance and stress. I was like, "Man, why can't I just not have to worry about home teaching so that I can have some peace of mind!" And so all of this would just make me less and less motivated to do home teaching. However, I have never been able to just completely shrug off that sense of duty and responsibility to live up to my baptismal and temple covenants. When finally that sense of duty and ultimately a desire in me to be a disciple of Christ kicked in I grudgingly made a commitment to start visiting my families consistently. In the beginning it wasn't easy and I constantly found a million things to keep me away from visiting or to procrastinate but I gritted my teeth and went anyways. As I continued to visit my families month after month things started to slowly change. I soon grew to know the families better as I visited them. I began to enjoy the company of my companion. And as I began to know these families better I began to sincerely love them and become concerned for them. As this happened all those negative feelings of being encumbered with having to "deal" with these families began to fade. That feeling of dreading to go home teaching left me and I felt excited about going each month because I was going to visit friends, I felt that I mattered to my families and I wanted to be there for them so that I could help them. I've reflected on this experience and I've wondered to myself what was it that led to this change of heart? This scripture comes to mind: For me, as I began to exercise faith in those promises that God has made concerning keeping His commandments, I began to receive strength. I started out only going because of a sense of guilt, duty, and responsibility. But as I consistently and regularly did my home teaching despite my negative feelings about it God began to bless me and He changed my heart and what once was a cumbersome chore became a delight and a joy to me. Now this couldn't have happened if I had remained slothful and derelict. I know that if I had remained slothful and had not exercised my faith and my diligence than I would not have progressed (Alma 37:41). Now even though my particular experience here had to do with home teaching the same principles apply to any commandment or requirement that Heavenly Father asks of us. Sometimes doing the right thing is hard and we don't want to do it. It can cause us feelings of stress and feel like it is a burden. Nonetheless if we truly are desirous to serve God and be true disciples of Jesus Christ we will take upon us that burden of following Christ, who promised: "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light" (Matt. 11:28-30). But we will only experience this blessing if we exercise our faith by diligently and consistently obeying His commandments and this includes diligently and consistently going to church. I know that God blesses us when we exercise our faith and He will bless you as well and bring about "...a mighty change...in [your] heart" and a change in "mindset", as you put it, and going to church will become easy, joyous, and something you will look forward to each week (Mosiah 5:2). Kind Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon Roundearth! I wish you the best for today. :) Let me first admit that my response to this particular strain of conversation was tongue-in-cheek. I had no serious investment in it's validity, soundness, or truth. However... Just for the fun of it I'll point out how your responses are still inadequat to justify your initial claims. 1. You made a categorical statement (Darwin was humble when he examined data). You simply have no way of knowing in what manner Darwin examined his evidence. The best you can do is infer that Darwin probably was humble. 2. One can be arrogant and honest simultaneously. You are asserting that arrogance somehow necessarily speaks to integrity when it doesn't. Else, you are redifining the term arrogant to include dishonesty as well. Which you cannot reasonably do. So, it is completely possible that Darwin was an arrogant person yet he was intellectually honest. Silly counterargument. Whether it's an appeal to numbers or an appeal to authority, it is nonetheless fallacious. It isn't fallacious because we can't ever rely on expert opinion, but because you are putting biologist and their authority above reproach. This is question begging. Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon Faded. I'm not sure we've met before, but if not then it is a pleasure to meet you! :) I am only guessing, of course, but I would suppose that "giving birth" to spirit children would be a very pleasant process as opposed to how it is now in our imperfect mortal state (a very painful, stressful, exhausting process). My thoughts on this are inconsequential, but I felt like sharing them nonetheless. Regards, Finrock

Good morning Roundearth. I trust you are well today? :) A person is blind because the actual instrument (the eyes) is defective. Therefore their sense of vision is inaccurate (in fact it is completely unreliable). Because they are receiving inaccurate data from their eyes they can never accurately interpret the data. Conclusion: The senses can be accurate or inaccurate. Regards, Finrock

Hi hordak! I think I understand what you are saying. Consider the following scenario: Suppose Brother Joe has been given a home teaching assignment but he doesn't accept it. Suppose further that the Bishop comes up to Brother Joe and says, "Brother Joe, you're a priesthood holder, why are you not accepting your calling as a home teacher?" Would you say in the above scenario the Bishop is out-of-line? Regards, Finrock

Let me add that Christians, in general, are persecuted worldwide. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not have a monopoly on that. Although we have a history of being persecuted against and many LDS (including myself) have personally experienced religious persecution at school, work, etc., it isn't just us. Although the Church of Jesus Christ contains the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and has the priesthood authority, other Christian churches still teach truths that help bring people closer to Christ and for this they are persecuted, ridiculed, and killed. Satan hates all truth, no matter the source, and will stir up the hearts of men to suppress any truth that might lead one to God and His Son, Jesus Christ. Regards, Finrock