Jacob1207

Great. So, who is it that I'd need to contact about this? That is, who keeps the records about proxy work and all that? (Presumably they're the ones I need to contact for a definitive answer on this matter.)

Oh, I believe it. In fact, I go further than you, I think, as I am a convinced universalist, to borrow words from William Barclay; I don't just think that everyone will have a chance to accept the gospel, I think that, eventually, everyone will. (Incidentally, the history of universalism within Christianity goes all the way back to the early Church Fathers, especially the Greek ones, and there have always been Christians who have taught the doctrine; it's an interesting subject to investigate if you're inclined and ever have some time.) Anyway, which LDS body is it that maintains the records concerning proxy work and, if you know, how might I contact them?

Here's another article on the Holocaust matter: Mormons to End Holocaust Victim Baptism - New York Times Taking Mormons to court? The articles indicate that the Jewish names added without family consent will be removed from the database. In Mormon belief, does this mean that those people will no longer be able to chose Jesus in the spirit world? What do you believe about those who already did make such a choice, will the results thereof be nullified by the removal of their name from the rolls? Also, another aspect of the controversy is the apparent failure of the LDS Church to adequately enforce and 1995 agreement that was to proscribe proxy baptisms for Jews without family consent.

Here are a few items on the Holocaust victim controversy which may be helpful in explaining the views of those who disagree with the practice and find it offensive: CNN.com - Mormons meet with Jews over baptizing Holocaust victims - Dec. 11, 2002 http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ldsagree.html How would you like it if a Hindu friend of yours said that he had done a ritual for you so that you could become a Hindu after you die if you wanted to at that point? Or if a Muslim neighbor came to you saying that she'd done a ceremony so you could be a Muslim when you die if you find that more to your liking? Or if a coven of Wiccans did a ritual so you could commune with Mother Earth after you die? Would you say "Gee, thanks. Now I know I'm covered if I turn out to be wrong. Maybe I should have some Taoists, Zoroastrians, Shintoists, Jainists, and practitioners of various animistic religions do ceremonies for me too, just in case they're right"? I dunno, maybe you would; I wouldn't. I would like to register a firm--but polite--"no thank you." I appreciate the offers to try to dissuade me. -- Jacob

I'm not worried about my eternal destiny or spiritual progression being effected by the actions of my descendants or relatives. Likewise, I imagine none of us here think that our spiritual progress will be arrested by a failure to visit Mecca or to bathe in the Ganges--let alone the failure of our grandchildren to do so for us. I would be displeased if, after my death, someone took action in my name that might influence others to think that such rites--which I think is basically magical thinking--are somehow necessary. But I don't mean to debate the necessity of proxy baptism and the other ordinances; if you'd like to do that I invite you to send me a private message. I just want to see if I can opt out. It looks like this is not a question that ever comes up much. When you are going to do proxy work, do you submit the names of the folks in advance, or do you just show up at the temple with list in hand? If you submit the names in advance, to whom is that information submitted? Also, does the LDS Church have a central depository of records where they keep track of everyone who has had proxy work done for them, or is that information held at each temple or at some other place? Perhaps I could contact those entities for a more definitive answer. I appreciate any info you can give. And, please, know that I am sure that your proxy work is motivated by love and that you find it to be a meaningful act of obedience to God. -- Jacob

Hey, Tomk. I appreciate your response, and those of the others who've commented. I am convinced that such ordinances being done for me after my death will have no effect on me whatever, either positive or negative. I am interested in making the request indicated not for my sake but for the sake of any descendants that I may have. Instead of them spending time doing ceremonies for me I would want to encourage them to examine the belief that God is so interested in rituals and ceremonies that people would be kept out of heaven (or certain parts thereof) on account of not having said certain words or performed certain symbolic acts. I'm not sure how much more I could say without triggering a general debate, which is not my intention or desire nor do I think it'd be permitted under the forum's terms of use. I'm not particularly concerned about ceremonies being done for me any time soon as I don't have any descendants at all right now, let alone any Mormon ones. This bring up a related question, however: what about people who never have children, for whatever reason? Is there no one who'd be authorized to undergo proxy work for them? And what about the people for whom there are no records, such as the hunter gatherers who were the only people on the planet for the overwhelming majority of our planet's history? What are your beliefs concerning those people? -- Jacob

Greetings to all. I am a non-LDS looking for information concerning proxy ordinances for the dead which I have been unable find with regular web searches. I come here in hopes of finding someone who knows the answer to my query. I hope that this is the correct board on which to post this. I understand that Mormons practice a number of ordinances on behalf of non-Mormons who have died, including baptism, sealing marriages and children, priesthood ordination, et cetera. My understanding is that current LDS policy only allows these ceremonies to be done by a direct descendant of the person in question or with the permission of such a descendant, at least for people who have died in the past several decades. My understanding is furthermore that Mormons believe that these ordinances must be done, either while living or by someone else for you after you've died, or certain favorable outcomes after this life will be foreclosed. Assuming the above to be materially correct (and please set me straight if any of it is not), is it possible for a person to permanently opt out of having such ordinances done for him- or herself after his or her death? Obviously, the LDS church keeps records of who has had ordinances done for him or her that are looked into when someone goes to perform proxy work. Could I make it so that when my name is brought up it will indicate that I have knowingly and willingly refused to have any proxy work done for me? I suspect this request seems rather bizarre. Know that I don't think having such ceremonies done for me after my death will have any negative consequences for me, but for other reasons I think it might be valuable to proscribe such activity. If no one here can give a definitive answer, I'd be grateful for direction to a source that possibly could. Best wishes, Jacob