Vort

Members
  • Posts

    25580
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    559

Reputation Activity

  1. Like
    Vort got a reaction from askandanswer in Kirtland Temple!   
    I think this is rather more similar to buying a gallon of milk from a store that also sells cigarettes and booze. Engaging in a financial transaction could certainly be considered "supporting" someone or something, but that's a problematic stance to take for an organization that does not want to be isolationist.
  2. Like
    Vort got a reaction from NeuroTypical in Kirtland Temple!   
    I think this is rather more similar to buying a gallon of milk from a store that also sells cigarettes and booze. Engaging in a financial transaction could certainly be considered "supporting" someone or something, but that's a problematic stance to take for an organization that does not want to be isolationist.
  3. Like
    Vort reacted to MrShorty in Kirtland Temple!   
    As an outsider, I'm not sure I can really say what they believe or don't believe. I observe that, up through Pres. W. B. Smith in the 1990's, they wrote their "revelations" in the D&C as if it was the voice of God speaking. Sections added by Pres. McMurray and Pres. Veazey are more circumspect and less obvious about being in the voice of God. I don't know what that might mean for the tangent we are on, but I make the observation.
  4. Like
    Vort got a reaction from LDSGator in Likely daguerreotype (photo) of Joseph Smith discovered.   
    I've been waiting years for someone to write a Chick Tract of Jack Chick post-mortem.
  5. Like
    Vort got a reaction from laronius in Are the Gold Plates in a cave somewhere?   
    I dislike certain tags that oversimplify and distort matters, such as the "Two-Cumorah Theory". Rather than state the matter as "there were two or perhaps more hills called Cumorah", which, though possible, sounds clearly like a stretch (or a tautology—"King Lear was not written by William Shakespeare, but by another playwright of the same name"), a better statement would be, "Perhaps the very name 'Hill Cumorah' simply means the hill chosen to house records." If we assume that records were always hidden somewhere on a hill so that (1) they would be marked by an easily recognizable landmark and (2) they would shed rainfall, it's easy to see that such a hill might become generally known as "Records Hill". Those concerned with record-keeping would quickly learn to look for the Records Hill in an area. If "Cumorah" denotes written records or a storage place for them, then this identification makes perfect sense.
    Of course, it's still an unsupported assertion, really just speculation. But it certainly has great explanatory value for those who believe the literal truth of the Book of Mormon and the narrative that it provides, and it doesn't immediately raise suspicion and mockery like "Two-Cumorah Theory" does.
  6. Like
    Vort got a reaction from mrmarklin in Are the Gold Plates in a cave somewhere?   
    The hill near the finger lakes region in eastern (upstate) New York that we call "Cumorah", where Joseph Smith first unearthed the plates of Mormon, is a drumlin—an enlongated, roundish hill composed of debris piled up by and left over from the actions of glaciers that retreated at the end of the last ice age, 13,000 or so years ago. Its structure is not like e.g. the mountains in Utah. You will not likely find limestone caverns in a drumlin. While I suppose it's possible there is some sort of large cave in the modern hill Cumorah, I doubt it, and don't see any convincing reason to suppose there is.
  7. Haha
    Vort got a reaction from mordorbund in Wombats   
    Funny you should say that, since the tragedy at Marathon might have been prevented by something like a bicycle.
  8. Like
    Vort reacted to Ironhold in And Now Time For Our Regularly Scheduled Conspiracy Theory   
    More like "If you don't hire our services, how can you be sure that you won't get canceled for doing something wrong?". 
    It's basically an updated version of the "Nice place you've got here; shame if something happened to it" bit that protection rackets always say in the movies.
  9. Like
    Vort reacted to NeuroTypical in Kirtland Temple!   
    Daniel Peterson has a few personal anecdotes to share about the CoC.  It's a pretty interesting read.
    https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2024/03/a-few-more-thoughts-on-the-kirtland-temple-deal.html
     
  10. Like
    Vort got a reaction from MrShorty in Kirtland Temple!   
    Perhaps I would have better said that they don't believe in modern revelation in the sense preached throughout the Restoration—that is, that God reveals Himself to His prophets. They certainly believe in revelation such as inspiration and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which puts them in the same class as most of the rest of modern Christianity.
    You may still disagree with this, and maybe you're right, but right or wrong, that would be a better reflection of what I intended to communicate.
  11. Haha
    Vort got a reaction from Jamie123 in Wombats   
    Funny you should say that, since the tragedy at Marathon might have been prevented by something like a bicycle.
  12. Like
    Vort got a reaction from mirkwood in And Now Time For Our Regularly Scheduled Conspiracy Theory   
    I'll go further. The Republican Party is corrupt, and many or most Republican leaders are also corrupt and care about power and influence much more than freedom and liberty. Of the two major parties that have been thrust upon us, the Republicans are significantly less corrupt and awful than the Democrats, which is why I nominally support the Republicans. But I am under no illusions as to the purity of the Republican cause.
    My feelings about the Republicans are in line with my feelings about Donald Trump and a potential second Trump administration: It's much better than the alternative, but that does not make it ideal, or even particularly good.
  13. Like
    Vort got a reaction from MrShorty in Are the Gold Plates in a cave somewhere?   
    The hill near the finger lakes region in eastern (upstate) New York that we call "Cumorah", where Joseph Smith first unearthed the plates of Mormon, is a drumlin—an enlongated, roundish hill composed of debris piled up by and left over from the actions of glaciers that retreated at the end of the last ice age, 13,000 or so years ago. Its structure is not like e.g. the mountains in Utah. You will not likely find limestone caverns in a drumlin. While I suppose it's possible there is some sort of large cave in the modern hill Cumorah, I doubt it, and don't see any convincing reason to suppose there is.
  14. Thanks
    Vort got a reaction from Traveler in And Now Time For Our Regularly Scheduled Conspiracy Theory   
    I'll go further. The Republican Party is corrupt, and many or most Republican leaders are also corrupt and care about power and influence much more than freedom and liberty. Of the two major parties that have been thrust upon us, the Republicans are significantly less corrupt and awful than the Democrats, which is why I nominally support the Republicans. But I am under no illusions as to the purity of the Republican cause.
    My feelings about the Republicans are in line with my feelings about Donald Trump and a potential second Trump administration: It's much better than the alternative, but that does not make it ideal, or even particularly good.
  15. Like
    Vort got a reaction from lonetree in Kirtland Temple!   
    I find this unlikely for several reasons:
    The Bible is perhaps our strongest contact with "traditional" Christianity, a commonality we would be loathe to lose. The JST was never proclaimed as complete. On the contrary, it's a sporadic mishmash of retranslation, interpretation, and doctrinal additions and changes. I think it would not be especially useful as the Bible is used today to try to use the JST as a regular Bible version. The Church has used a non-JST Bible throughout its history. That's what people know. You don't easily just give that up. (This is sort of an extension of the first bullet.) Saints have often complained about the shortcomings and difficulties inherent in using the KJV. The JST preserves all those perceived shortcomings and adds others. Whatever insights Biblical scholarship might add (e.g. the Dead Sea scrolls) would largely be mitigated by a slavish adherence to the JST. (Bonus point: The existence of the JST itself argues against "slavish adherence".)
  16. Haha
    Vort got a reaction from zil2 in The Book of Mormon – what’s new to you?   
    Laban was just a misunderstood guy with a temper problem. He lost his head. It happens.
  17. Like
    Vort reacted to NeuroTypical in And Now Time For Our Regularly Scheduled Conspiracy Theory   
    For over a decade, I've felt that pretty much all politicians on the federal level, follow two great commandments above all else:
    1. Thou shalt get elected and gain power.
    2. Thou shalt remain elected and increase power.
    That viewpoint has helped me decipher pretty much everything every politician says and does.  
    So, a political party is more a reflection on that party's power brokers (people and entities who can influence votes), than it is of any particular platform or ideology.
    Trump seems to be a far superior deal maker than the rest of 'em.  I truly believe if he had won his 2nd term, Russia wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.  Trump would have made a deal with Putin, probably over NATO expansion and energy. 
     
    Also this:

  18. Like
    Vort got a reaction from zil2 in And Now Time For Our Regularly Scheduled Conspiracy Theory   
    I'll go further. The Republican Party is corrupt, and many or most Republican leaders are also corrupt and care about power and influence much more than freedom and liberty. Of the two major parties that have been thrust upon us, the Republicans are significantly less corrupt and awful than the Democrats, which is why I nominally support the Republicans. But I am under no illusions as to the purity of the Republican cause.
    My feelings about the Republicans are in line with my feelings about Donald Trump and a potential second Trump administration: It's much better than the alternative, but that does not make it ideal, or even particularly good.
  19. Like
    Vort got a reaction from NeuroTypical in And Now Time For Our Regularly Scheduled Conspiracy Theory   
    I'll go further. The Republican Party is corrupt, and many or most Republican leaders are also corrupt and care about power and influence much more than freedom and liberty. Of the two major parties that have been thrust upon us, the Republicans are significantly less corrupt and awful than the Democrats, which is why I nominally support the Republicans. But I am under no illusions as to the purity of the Republican cause.
    My feelings about the Republicans are in line with my feelings about Donald Trump and a potential second Trump administration: It's much better than the alternative, but that does not make it ideal, or even particularly good.
  20. Like
    Vort reacted to mikbone in Kirtland Temple!   
    We have been talking about the signs of the times.  And I still recall President Nelson's admonition to take your vitamins, etc.
    We now have a picture of Joseph Smith.  The original artifacts are returning to the church and I foresee more coming.
    I still have a deep hope that the 116 pages will suddenly show up in someone's basement.  It is likely that parts of it were destroyed or altered but if any of the original docs remain they would be cherrished.
     
  21. Like
    Vort reacted to NeuroTypical in Kirtland Temple!   
    I inherited a bunch of religious books from my grandpa.  One of them was published in the 1930's (I think), from the church's printing press in Beaver Utah, titled something like "The succession of Joseph II".  I briefly thumbed through it, it was basically an in-depth response to a bunch of claims made that Joseph's child should be Joseph's successor after his martyrdom.  I put it with the other 2-3 dozen books in a box in my basement.
    Years later, I was in Yahoo chat arguing religion with an RLDS person about who was right and who was wrong.  I ran and got the 70 year old book.  He proceeded to make a series of claims, pretty much verbatim to the claims refuted by my book, pretty much in the exact order my book was written.  I immediately was able to counter each point he made, clearly and convincingly, by citing various elements of our shared history.  Poor dude was forced to say something like "well, I don't know as much as I should about it, but I'm still sure you Brigahmites are the wrong ones."
    Imagine fighting a battle, over and over again, that was pretty conclusively lost 70 years ago.  
  22. Like
    Vort reacted to NeuroTypical in Kirtland Temple!   
    Well, BYU is the home of various organizations that preserve and digitize records related to Judaism and Christianity, and we've been partnering with the Community of Christ's historian's office on this and other artifacts and documents for a long time.  
    The original manuscript (including the 1823 Bible Joseph used in the work) is scanned and free online:  https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/the-papers/revelations-and-translations/jsppr5
    But yes, it's nice to have things, and I'm very excited.  I remember in the 1980's, people with passionate opinions about when we'd finally get the temple and the manuscript.  I'm surprised the CoC has held on to them for so long, especially when we've been offering real $$$ for them for a long time.
  23. Like
    Vort reacted to mikbone in Kirtland Temple!   
    https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/content/historic-sites/missouri/questions-and-answers-about-the-temple-lot-in-independence-missouri?lang=eng
    I bet we purchase some property in Independence Missouri next.  Likely within 5 years.
    And there we will build a Temple to the Lord.
  24. Like
    Vort reacted to mikbone in Kirtland Temple!   
    Bet we will be using the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible quite a bit more in our classes.
    192.5 M well spent.
  25. Like
    Vort reacted to NeuroTypical in Kirtland Temple!   
    Correct.  It's the financial term.  An "endowment" is a big pile of money that sits in income generating investments.  You spend the income generated, not the endowment.  And there's usually respect and praise for whoever donated the big pile of money.  You can endow a college, and get a chair (or even a building) named after you.