lindsayjane

Thank you, Bytor, I needed that. While I am financially stable because of the industry I'm in, I just found out a few days ago that my executive director (and dear friend) is being fired because the management company likes me better and wants me to replace her (talk about an ethical tragedy). My boyfriend and I are breaking up. And I am still struggling with my addiction to dancing and my attendance in church. But yes, the church is still true. Even when I don't go it's still true. I have felt the Spirit as I have read this thread and it brings tears to my eyes to be reminded that that is still possible!

Welcome. It is a treat to have you here. I have often felt that if I were not LDS I would be Buddhist. I have studied much of Buddhist philosophy and practice with reverence and admiration. I believe the path of Buddhism to be mindful, peaceful, and enlightened. His Holiness the Dalai Lama continues to be one of my very favorite people. I have always been inspired and uplifted as I've read his remarkable words. I wish you peace and enlightenment on your path, as well!

Yes yes yes! Personally, I think the wave-particle duality is integral to the study of spiritual matter. My theory is that the properties of spirit are closest to the properties of light. And then there's love. Have you ever considered the phenomena of love as a force similar to light? And perhaps the interplay of love, light, and spirit has something to do with the nature of outer darkness. As far as collapsing your probability wave function, I assume you mean cessation of the emission of electromagnetic radiation, which only further ties into my theories of the relationship of light and spirit. ....ok, ok, I'm getting ahead of myself and off topic here. Maybe these fun "spiritual science" speculations are for another forum (or another dimension? ) BYTOR! Ok, I guess I mislabeled those classes. I suppose they're probably in the 301 or 401 realm. I'm sure Heavenly Father has Basic Chem 101 available on the course list, too. I can't imagine what the graduate classes are like!

Many things can be concluded from the anti-depressant study and nothing can be assumed. Doctors could be more prone to prescribing. The people could genuinely be more depressed. We don't have a breakdown of non-mormon vs. mormon so we can't speculate there. I will say, however, that my perception of unhappiness in the LDS church is based on personal experience, not studies or statistics. I grew up in Arizona and have lived in Georgia, Texas, Kentucky, New Hampshire, California and Utah. It seemed like there were a lot of unhappy people at church no matter which state I lived in. I knew more unhappy Mormons in Utah simply because I knew more Mormons in Utah. This issue was actually one of the reasons I left the church. I was unhappy and many around me were unhappy as we were tying our hardest to live faithful lives. I speculated about the reasons for so much unhappiness. I thought the push to marry at such young ages was part of the problem because I saw how unhappy so many people ended up after marrying someone they had only known a few months and didn't have anything in common with other than initial physical attraction and the desire to be married in the temple. The stress of higher standards and expectations and the constant guilt and feelings of inadequacy were high on the list. Realistically, living up to the church's standards is hard. Even if someone is able to live well enough to keep a temple recommend, the weight of all the lesser infractions can quickly collect on a person's heart and mind. There is no doubt that Mormon culture sets us up for a lot of disappointment. That is the nature of an idealistic society. The church is well aware of this phenomema. I have read and heard many talks meant to encourage and uplift. I'm sure it is a delicate balance for church leaders who must preach repentance and avoid discouragement at the same time. All that being said, I have thought more about the issue while I have been away from the church. I have been forced to reconcile my testimony of the church's truth with how much misery I and others have experienced while trying to live by its principles. The most important insight I've gained outside of the church is how unhappy the general population is! They are unhappy for many different reasons and many of the same. Non-members have plenty of family and relationship issues. They have substance abuse issues, unwanted pregancy and std issues. They also struggle with guilt and feelings of inadequacy, just for different reasons. There are also a lot of people in and out of the church who are genuinely happy. For the most part, I am happy right now. I'm still not very active and I'm definitely not living all the principles, but I am at peace. Mostly, I have let go of a lot of my expectations and idealism. I live and love very simply now. I don't worry about the details. I just live with integrity and live by my heart and I am happier now than I was when I was active. My goal is to someday figure out how to retain this peace while I am fully active.

I believe that all the diverse species we see today are related and a product of evolution, as guided by God. I love science. I love God. Fortunately, God is the dean of the best science academy in the universe. I'm looking forward to Creation 101 at the Spirit World University almost as much as I'm looking forward to Electrons, Quarks, and Tetraneutrons 101...and Dark Matter and Dark Energy 101...and Neuroscience 101...

Sounds like you have had wonderful experiences. I have had a few, as well, but unfortunately I have let them grow fuzzy through inactivity. What I do acknowledge, however, is the source of my charity, and that is God. You say you love because He first loved you, and I think it is the same with me. I have felt God's love for me as well as His love for others. I have had many experiences when I was interacting with someone and felt an overwhelming rush of love and compassion for them. I have been experiencing this since I was young, and I am pretty sure it is an external injection of the God's love for that person into my being. I wish my faith has been as solid as my charity has been. At least, my faith in the church, anyway.

Thank you, as well.

Hmmm...I run into a dilemma as I ponder the "faith, hope, and charity" triad. I have found them to be completely independent forces in my life. I can understand the premise of the statements in scripture and quotes, but I have not proved it by experience. I have experienced the increase of hope with the increase of faith, but I have also maintained "blind" hope in the complete absence of faith (such as during inactivity). I continue to find peace in a hope for many things that I do not have faith in, and I recognize that often my hope is unfounded in my heart. (A habit of hope perhaps?) Such is also the case with charity. I have often thought my charity to be a spiritual gift, one which I prayed for and received years ago. I had always been compassionate, but I was given a gift of unconditional love at a crucial time in my life when my callings required it. I retain that gift to this day and I retained it though inactivity and loss of faith. I have never felt it diminish. In fact, as I have come into contact with more non-members and more who would challenge my capacity for tolerance and compassion, I have only felt that love expand. I do not love out of hope or faith. I just love because I love. So I challenge the notion that faith, hope, and charity depend upon each other universally.

I suppose I have been the same and am resting right now. (Or running so fast I don't have time to read anyway.) In any case, I probably will become restless again eventually. There is just so much delicious knowledge to gobble up in this life. Definitely. I was actually going to quote the Book of Mormon passage about the Jews looking beyond the mark and the stumbling block of seeking things they could not (would not) understand. (But my post was long enough, already and I was trying to avoid a dissertation. :)) The Jewish mystical tradition of study is similar to the Hindu path of knowledge. I have always found interesting similarities to the Hindu traditions of worship and Christian worship. Hindus who follow the path of knowledge seek to worship deity through study and meditation. That path is in harmony with their nature, probably bright or curious individuals with the time and means to study. Others follow paths of devotion, duty, or liberation depending on their level of understanding and their individual natures. I see the same thing happening in the church. Although we have the same doctrines, services, and rituals, people draw close to God in different ways. But I will admit that the path of knowledge is the most dangerous. I think it is the easiest path on which to lose sight of the mark. It's ironic, because one thinks they are peering into the heart of the mark, but we know study in and of itself is not salvation. Sometimes the simple faith of the humble and unlearned will reveal the face of God more readily. Thank you for your comments, HiJolly!

I have experienced this question from both sides. For many years, I was voracious in my appetite for knowledge, feeling that the more I knew the closer to God I would be. I read the Pearl of Great Price when I was 10 and truly believed I could see what Abraham saw in this lifetime. I felt no restrictions on the possibility of gaining knowledge of any truth or mystery in this life. I read the scriptures like an addicting novel when I was young. I read everything I could get my hands on published by FARMS during college. I often went to the temple weekly when I was endowed. I can still replay every detail of the endowment and initiatory in my head. I was in gifted and honors programs growing up, and knowledge has always come quickly and easily for me. I directed my passion for knowledge toward my quest for knowledge of God. Unfortunately, all of this knowledge didn't equate to a stronger relationship with God. My heart was turned toward Him in a sincere desire to do what was right, but I don't think my relationship with Him was any more personal or deep than any other member who just read and lived by the basic principles. Now, after many difficult and confusing years have passed, I have a much different perspective about the search for knowledge. I realize that every interesting detail I learned about the nature of God or the afterlife only led to more questions. There was never a point at which the questions and uncertainty decreased because as the old questions were answered new questions were created. There is always plenty of uncertainty in the LDS church (as Bytor pointed out), we just have different questions. Protestants claim to know some things and are unsure about others. It's the same with the LDS. I think we are all equally searching for knowledge as well as shut down about many details we hold as absolute truth. For a Protestant to say there is no way Joseph Smith is a prophet is no different than a Mormon saying there is no way he isn't. Just as a Protestant saying the Trinity is a true doctrine is no different than a Mormon saying the doctrine of separate personages is true. That's all beside the point. We are all closed minded AND comfortable with uncertainty to some extent (some more than others, or course). Mormons don't claim to have all the answers, they just have different answers. For better or worse, I don't seek after knowlege much anymore. I am more content with uncertaintly now than I ever have been. I have some core beliefs that I haven't been able to shake, even when I wanted to, but I am very open minded about truth and possibility. I guess I recognize now that those things I feel are absolute truth could feel that way because they settled in my heart at such a young age. (Yes, yes, I know what that implies about my testimony, but I still believe it all anyway. I'm just realistic about the nature of that belief.)

I am lucky to have a job that won't really be affected by the economy. I work in an assisted living community, and this industry is actually always in need of people. It's a lot like the need for nurses. CNA's, caregivers, etc. are always secure because there is such a large and growing population of elderly. I am also in management so my income is enough that I don't have any trouble paying bills with plenty left over. My biggest advantage right now is that I don't own a house!

Yes. Although after going to church alone since I was ten, overcoming inactive, alcoholic parents, serving on seminary council, "wanting to be Hugh Nibley when I grew up," and even studying Hebrew and the ancient Near East at BYU, I never thought it was possible at one time. I thought I was solid and always would be. It took struggling with an inactive husband for five years then being divorced by my second husband (who I am still sealed to) after being married less than three years. Still to this day I can't trust feelings from the spirit that I may or may not be feeling. I have made so many bad decisions because of what I thought the Lord wanted for me. So I have a hard time now trusting what the right thing is. I can handle sadness and trials, that's not the issue. I've endured terrible things in faith throughout my life. The issue is when I end up miserable for trying to do the right things and feeling complete peace when I'm inactive and not living the standards.

I don't rule out the possibility of satan speaking through a literal serpent of some kind. That's no less improbable than any of the other unusual biblical stories. I think it can get pretty difficult to start picking which fantastical story we want to interpret as literal and which story we interpret as allegorical. They may all be literal, they may all be allegorical, or there could be a mix. I definitely look forward to finding out, but I don't think we can be sure right now.

I agree. We definitely can't all be interpreting it correctly, someone has to be mistaken. And I have suggested that possibility to many a non-member in my life. The problem we run into, however, is trying to convince someone that they're the one mistaken. As far as they're concerned, we are the ones misinterpreting the scriptures and adding a bunch of stuff that isn't from God to try to add more supporting evidence for our way of thinking. That's why the issue will never be resolved with a discussion about how accurate or final the Bible is. Christians I have talked to bear passionate testimony of their own interpretations and beliefs. They sound just like me. So who's right? Depends on who you ask, I guess.

I believe that here we find the impasse with respect to the doctrine of the trinity (and many others, as well, actually). The lds argue that the NT does not support the doctrine of the trinity, that it came later, and point to scripture that supports the idea of separate beings (like Matthew 3:16-17). Protestants/Evangelical Christians point to scripture that supports the idea of the trinity (like the "one with the Father" lines). [...Actually, many of the "as we are one" quotes, in my mind, only create further doubt about the concept of trinity, because if Jesus is saying that the saints should be "one as we are one" why would he compare the symbolic oneness of separate individuals to a literal oneness of Him and the Father? Doesn't make sense...but I digress.] My point is, we can all grab a few lines of scripture that support our own belief. It all depends on how we choose to interpret it. So I don't think it's spiritually useful to argue the doctrine from that angle. It can definitely be interesting and valuable to research and debate the historical and hypothetical context of the scriptures, but when we try to use verses here and verses there to prove the doctrine we will just keep running into that impasse of interpretation. That's where the text leaves off and the Spirit is supposed to take over, right? :)

Prisonchaplain, all points are well taken. I can appreciate the logic and value of all of your arguments. I can see Christianity, scripture, and God from your point of view and agree that there is beauty and peace in that perspective. I realize that all of us find peace in the God and the gospel that is in greatest harmony with our minds and our life experience. I am at peace with the God of my youth, the God whose divine plan was revealed to me through LDS doctrine. None of us knows the true personality or mind of God. We love and worship an image of Him in our hearts and minds, an image that is typically learned rather than inherently perceived. We have a sense of His love for us and feel His Spirit. I connect with a Heavenly Father figure--my own interpretation of his divine presence. I love a divine being named Jesus Christ, the son of the Father, which I learned about through the Bible and the Book of Mormon. I don't claim to comprehend everything about His life or His mission, but I believe that He exsisted, that He is divine, that He loves me, and that I cannot return to the Father without Him. Likewise, other Christians are at peace with their own interpretation of God and Christ, with the personality and purpose that is in harmony with mainstream Christian doctrine. Yes, His divine plan is different than that of the God I worship, but I truly believe that the love and the Spirit we feel is of the same Being. In fact, I tend to believe that with most of the interpretations of deity throughout the world. Regardless of the doctrine or the scripture that we believe in, when humans feel that divine love and the Spirit of peace, we are feeling the true God that none of us will ever comprehend in this life. I wish you peace and joy in your journey. I respect your God and your faith in Him, just as I love my God and find comfort in His doctrine. I think, in the end, we will all find that He was the same God all along. :)

I can understand where you're coming in feeling that God has had his hands on the translation effort all along, thereby ensuring that we have all that He intends for us to have in the Bible alone at this point. That is a valid argument and I understand that is the sentiment at the heart of mainstream Christianity's rejection of additional scripture. However, there are still doubts and second guessing because there are still contradictions, discrepancies, and centuries of differing opinion about interpretation. Today millions with sincere hearts, desiring to show themselves approved, read the bible and come up with countless versions of how to go about that. How is it not reasonable to consider that God could bring forth additional scripture to clarify existing scripture that is imperfect due to human error? I even accept that the Book of Mormon is imperfect and continues to need further clarification and that every piece of revealed scripture probably will. Yes, Mormon doctrine does disagree with widely held interpretations of some things, but it does not necessarily disagree with the bible. Personally, I have always appreciated the logical clarifications offered by the Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price. Much of common Christian belief is simply illogical to me. LDS doctrine reveals a vision of God, man, and earth that makes much more sense in an eternal perspective and I can see the thread of that vision throughout the bible. I don't think LDS doctrine is at odds with existing scripture at all, but I do recognize that it is at odds with existing popular interpretation--and I understand completely that no one wants to believe they are in serious error and would be skeptical of the evidence claiming such. I agree that it would only be personal revelation which could convince someone of the truth of a claim like that. I'm just questioning the idea that many (and perhaps not you) hold that the possibility itself is completely illogical or unworthy of contemplation or prayer.

Exactly. I tend to view the history of prophetic revelation and canonized scripture operating like the childhood game of "telephone." God revealed truth to ancient prophets and they wrote it down. Then over thousands of years the written and oral history was rewritten and retold countless times. Also along the way, those truths were interpreted and reinterpreted from different points of view depending on differing social and historical contexts. It shouldn't be suprising to anyone that there would exist today so many different versions of Judaism and Christianity. Thus, in my mind, the crucial need for modern revelation. I don't think it has anything to do with God not revealing all of His gospel to previous civilizations or even necessarily the need for different revelation for the present day. I tend to think mankind has remained somewhat consistent in its humanity from the beginning, for better and worse. But simply the fact that God has been revealing His truths to imperfect humans and relying on imperfect records to deliver His perfect message throughout history would result in the need to intervene from time to time to clarify and "tidy up" the record. I also don't think it should be suprising that he would call servants and ordain them with just as much authority to receive revelation and lead his children as the prophets of old were given. Even when non-LDS Christians accept the idea of modern revelation of some kind or another, why is there such a persistent fear of modern prophetic revelation? God has ordained prophets from the beginning. Why is that so improbable now?

I guess I have to clarify my post. I don't find the history of polygamy maddening at all. In fact, it's quite fascinating (which is why I continue to read these threads at risk of "painful" consequences ). I enjoy reading the accounts and speculation and I can picture these people's lives and struggles to a point. (I'm trying to be empathetic. Really, I am.) What is maddening to me is how mentally and emotionally heated so many people become over the issue and how, for some, the church seems to fall under it's weight alone. But I don't see this issue as being very different --from a spiritual standpoint at least-- than any other difficult or controversial commandment. It has had and will always have its challenges, its potential for misuse and misunderstanding, and its vehement opposers. But as fascinating as the historical study is, I don't believe the whole religion stands or falls depending on that history. I think there is more emotionally subjective judgement going on than objective, historical analysis. I DO recognize I am unusual in my emotional complacency and I apologize for being insensitive to the majority who would struggle with the practice of polygamy. I have a very passive nature and, perhaps, unique experiences with love and relationships, including experiencing a startling lack of jealousy or possessiveness when my ex-husband was unfaithful (and I did love him deeply, that wasn't the problem). The idea of polygamy has simply never offended me. In fact, there have been many times in my life when I've wished the practice would return. But I know that opinion is not popular so I usually just keep my mouth shut about the topic altogether. So when I say I "don't care" I really mean I don't care that the practice exists, not that I don't care about the historical details of its existence.

I have read so many of these polygamy arguments and I find them absolutely maddening. Am I the only one around here who really doesn't care about polygamy--past, present, or future? According to the scriptures, polygamy was ordained of God in the past at various times and places. Ok, that's simple enough. I don't have a problem with that--logically, emotionally, or otherwise. If it was commanded it was obviously for a good reason. I may not know the mind of God but I know enough not to doubt it. Polygamy is NOT currently ordained by God. That's simple enough, as well. So we don't practice it now. We don't know all the reasons for that and that's ok. We don't know the answers to a lot of things, but we keep on trucking along with the knowledge we do have. This isn't any different. If it WERE commanded right now we would practice it or we would leave the church, just like any other difficult commandment. Just like the Word of Wisdom or chastity or tithing, it would be easier for some and more difficult for others. Some would endure no matter what and some wouldn't. That's just the simple fact of it. Consecration will likely be just as trying. In truth, it's been pointed out that polygamy IS practiced today if you consider the ability of men to be sealed to more than one wife, even if he can't be legally married to them at the same time. So we're saying, "Yeah, it's ok if I have to share him in the next life as long as I get him to myself here." I just don't understand the logic in that. Did I just fracture my jealous bone, or something? I say, "If the Lord commands it then buy the house next door so you don't have to drive across town all the time. (And cause I don't want any input into how to decorate this house!)" We're told polygamy will be ordained of God again some time in the future. Ok, that's also pretty straight forward. So we will have to deal with it again whether we like it or not. So I say let's just get used to the idea of it and stop freaking out about it. The practice has been a condition of humanity throughout history and, apparently, has been a condition of eternal beings throughout eternity. From what I gather about the peace and joy to be had in eternity, I'm guessing we will all come to find that this principle isn't as bad as most of us seem to think it is.

I think Mykdiver is exactly right with this sentiment. We can debate the semantics and historical context of the WoW all night long, but even picking it apart syllable by syllable isn't going to reach the heart of it. It is, of course, interesting to consider the background of the language and culture of the day, but those considerations shouldn't replace our search for a personal spiritual witness about the WoW's application to OUR lives in OUR day. We need to remember that the WoW is a spiritual law first and foremost. Yes, following it or not following it will certainly affect our temporal circumstances--especially financially in addition to the obvious health affects. But there are a host of negative spiritual effects we need to keep in mind, as well. Mykdiver mentioned addiction. I witnessed addiction tear my family apart growing up and ruin the hearts and minds of my parents and relatives. Addiction rots the spirit faster than it ruins the body. And I will add to this point the affect of alcohol on the mind (and surely the spirit). I don't believe beer was ever an exception, Hordak, because after enough beer you're just as drunk as you would be on hard liquor. In any state of intoxication, our agency is compromised and there's no way we are going to feel the Spirit. As far as meat and the rest is concerned, I think we really just need to feel these issues out in our hearts and our spirits. We need to pray and ponder. We need to stop being spiritually lazy, looking for the exactness of the law in the letters on the page when we can find the exact requirement for US, individually, on our knees. I believe it may be different for all of us. The Lord may want one person to work on limiting meat, but another person my need to work harder on limiting sugar. We all have different strengths and weaknesses, different appetites to overcome. It may be a vague, general law for a reason. The spirit of the law goes out to all. It's up to us to consult the Lord about the letter of the law for our own lives.

Throughout my early years reading the Book of Mormon I had countless experiences where the passage I was reading would catch in my mind and heart. I would feel this expanding feeling in my chest and a rush of emotion and usually tears would come to my eyes. At the same time I would feel that expanding feeling in my mind (literally like a physical sensation) and a flood of knowledge would sharpen my understanding of life and God and the universe. In my teens I was challenged to follow Moroni's direction and actually pray about it, so I did. I didn't feel anything like what I felt at times when I was actually reading it, I just got this thought in my mind, "You already know it's true." And I remember closing the prayer with a grin and saying, "Yeah, I know. I know it's true. I was just humoring my teacher. Thanks, though."

As far as I'm concerned, all of the fuzzy details of Joseph's life can be speculated about indefinitely, but none of those details have any bearing on the simple facts of the works he produced. First, the Book of Mormon. Yes, the authorship and validity of the BOM is debated, but the clarifications it offers for many of Christianity's ambiguous and controversial doctrines make more sense to me than any of the verse-twisting, pick-and-choosing methods of explanation I've ever heard from mainstream Christians. Second, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. The ideas found in these books paint a more plausible picture of God, man, and eternity than any other religious text I have ever read (and I've read a lot of the world's sacred texts). I have thought occasionally that if I weren't LDS I wouldn't even be Christian. There are simply too many problems with mainstream Christian doctrine and especially with Christian history. So much is either not logical or portrays a God and an afterlife that I wouldn't want to have anything to do with anyway. It is only because of the scriptures and revelations received by Joseph Smith that I can buy in to Christianity at all. I can't believe that a minimally educated farm boy could make such beautiful sense out of centuries of corruption.

I have Catholic family members that believe and have been told by their priests that the LDS will not be going to heaven. I have never heard anything like the above quote before. Unless they are distinguishing the LDS from the general Christian population? But it was my understanding that the rules for getting into the Catholic heaven are as strict as the rules for getting into the LDS celestial kingdom. These are only attained through specific ordinances administered by those in authority. So I don't see how a Catholic could claim that a non-Catholic Christian could obtain heaven without baptism, communion, and adherance to the other laws and requirements.

We know we can't literally hide from God, but I think it is possible to hide from God in heart and mind. That's actually what I've been doing for the last two years. I could never convince myself that the doctrine wasn't true, but I could refuse to care whether it was or not. I could push it as far out of my conscious thought and daily life as possible. I hid from God in the worldy details of common life. Conversely, can anyone be truly lost? I think God knows where his "lost" children are, too. :)