deseretgov
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Posts posted by deseretgov
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There is no end to the jokes I could make based on this post...all of which would end up with me forever sitting outside the lds.net fence.
Yes, I knew that as I was writing it. But I couldn't make it joke proof so I didn't even try. Just be glad I didn't include animals like snakes.
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Matthew 15:11
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Christ taught us that it is unimportant to our eternal salvation what we take into our bodies. But rather what speech we allow to come out of our mouths. That is what can affect our eternal salvation.
But doesn't the Word of Wisdom Command us not to use tobacco? Yes it does. But the Word of wisdom does not have any affect on our eternal salvation only our temporal salvation(meaning health).
Doctrine and Covenants 89:2
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
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How about petting?
I never felt a need to confess this. It's fun to run your fingers through the fur of your pet cat or dog. I think it's ok with Heavenly Father too if we pet whatever furry animal we have chosen to take care of. Just make sure you give them food and water and plenty of space to explore. But pets can be quite expensive.
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There is a difference in being killed for standing up to their beliefs and falling away though. They didn't fall away..that's actually why they were killed.
Yes there is a difference but the result is that same. Completely losing the Quorum of the Twelve through death or apostasy results in the same thing. The loss of the Quorum of the Twelve.
Which comes back to may statement. Perhaps teh Quorum of the Twelve had never completely been lost to apostasy before. But it has been lost before.
But regardless we still can't just follow the Twelve and trust them to lead us in the right direction. Even when they do teach righteous things.
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What instance was that when the entire quorum fell away?
Thanks,
Vanhin
I know it's not the same as "falling away." But falling away is that same as losing a person. After Christ left the earth, the quorum was killed. So God has allowed the Quorum of the Twelve to be lost before.
God didn't ensure that the Israelite leaders stayed righteous. He didn't ensure that the Nephite leaders remained righteous. And He hasn't/doesn't/won't ensure our modern leaders will remain righteous.
It is up to all of us to search the Words of God and seek the guidence of the Spirit. Only then will we be able to detect apostasy when it sneaks into us or our leaders. That is the way God has given for ensuring that the Quorum wont fall away by giving the Spirit to influence righteous saints(regular ones like you and I). Then it is those saints who make sure that any apostasy does not take hold.
The Israelites/Jews failed. The Nephites failed. Both of these societies had Jesus Christ walk in their midst and they fell into apostasy. Are we honestly that much different from them?
the Israelites were forbidden from attaining their promised land because of apostasy and wickedness. It took them 40 years before they were finally able to inherit their promised land.
In the early 1830's the church was cast out of the promised land of Zion because of apostasy in the church. How much more wicked are we today; how much more ensnared in apostasy are we than the Israelites, when it has been about 180 years and we still haven't been allowed by the Lord to inherit Zion.
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but the QUORUM as a group will not fall away.
Why not? It has happened before. I can recall reading about a certain instance where the entire quorum was lost.
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But of course the Lord leads and guides HIS church and this is it.... I mean this church...this Gospel dispensation is it.......HE is preparing to return......so, I do believe that nothing will stop the work from proceeding in preparation for the return of the Savior...including a wayward Prophet.
Oh. Yes I do agree with that. This is the final dispensation. I don't believe this work will come to a halt. Not a prophet that teaches something false can do that.
My point is just that it is up to us to make sure we are following the Word of God. We cannot just follow a prophet without making sure that what that prophet teaches is correct. We cannot allow ourselves to be lulled into thinking all is well in Zion, just becuase we think a prophet can never lead us astray. It is an incorrect teaching and we must be constanly on guard, searching the scriptures, and most importantly seeking for the witness of the Holy Ghost.
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One of the main issues I have though with that statement deseretgov is that IF is possible that the Prophet can lead us astray, then the quotes of JS that you just put become invalid because (according to your post's main point) he could have lied or led the people astray in those quotes....
Yes that's true. And the teachings in the scriptures could be the result of mislead prophets too.
So for me what all that means is to let the Holy Spirit guide us in coming to know what is the Word of God. We can not let our salvation be determined by the writings or teachings of others. It is only through a strong relationship between God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, and ourselves, that we can attain salvation. If we have that relationship then we will be led down that path that leads back to our Heavenly Father.
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deseretgov, I will have to read and find those sources myself and see how everything fits together however I wanted to say I enjoyed your post and you make some valid points IMO.
Thank you. I hope I didn't come across negative. It is meant to be uplifting.
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Hemi? Perhaps President Woodruff meant something like this,...."because the Lord would ultimately remove him if he did." Because, as you know this Church is the stone that was carved out of the mountain without hands and will never fall and because of that....President Woodruff is correct.
But it is not up to the Lord to remove a prophet, or cleans a false teaching. It is up to us, it's our test. That's what Joseph Smith, the Scriptures, and God are telling us.
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Wilford Woodruff made this statement now included in Official Declaration 1:
"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."
(Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)
This is a very comforting quote. It's nice to know that we have such righteous leaders and that God is in control so we just have to "follow the prophet" and we will be alright. It is a comforting idea, but God disagrees.
“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel – said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church – that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls – APPLIED IT TO THE PRESENT STATE OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS – SAID IF THE PEOPLE DEPARTED FROM THE LORD, THEY MUST FALL – THAT THEY WERE DEPENDING ON THE PROPHET, HENCE WERE DARKENED IN THEIR MINDS, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy. ” -
(TPJS Section Five 1842-43, p.237-38.)
Right there Joseph Smith says that if we are depending on the prophets we will be darkened in our minds. Now this doesn't contradict Wilford Woodruff statement but just wait.
So now has any of us actually read Ezekiel 14? I'm not going to do your homework so erad the whole thing yourselves. But the main points of the chapter is that if we have idols in our hearts God will give us answers according to those idols. towards the end it gives an example of how prophets cannot save us, but we are resposible for our own salvation.
But one verse is very important.
Ezekiel 14:99 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Here it plainly says that God deceives prophets. Now it should be note that the JST versino of this verse says that God doesn't deceive the prophets. Now this may seem contradictory but it is not. The following scriptures explain it.
1 Kings 22:21-23
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a alying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a alying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
In these verse we learn that while God allows prophets to be deceived he is not the one who deceives. God allows someone else to deceived the prophets. Now one quess as to who that spirit is.
But what for? Why would God allow his holy prophets to be deceived? The answer is quite simple.
Deuteronomy 13:2-3
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
God allows prophets to be deceived so that we will be tested. He tests us to see if we will really follow Him or if we are trusting in the arm of flesh.
Here's another quote from Joseph Smith.
"Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil."
Now there is also a vers ein the D&C that supports this teaching. I found it the other day and I will find it again if anyone needs more convincing. But here Joseph Smith again confirms what the Bible is teaching us that Prophets can be deceived.
So now it begs the question. How do we know when a prophet is teaching false teachings. We must again turn to Joseph Smith.
“There have also been ministering angels in the Church which were of Satan appearing as an angel of light. [(Gives an example)].. Many true things were spoken by this personage, and many things that were false. How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? By the color of his hair; that is one of the signs that he can be known by, and by his contradicting a former revelation.”(Joseph Smith, TPJS, pp. 214-215)
We see that the way to tell false spirit is if it teaches something that contradticts a previous revelation. Therefor the way to detect a false spirit influencing a prophet is if what that prophet teaches contradticts a previous revelation. So let's examine Wilford Woodruff's statement again.
"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God."
Now does this match previous revelations or contradicts them. For me this is a contradiction and thus a false teaching. Not only does it go against the Scriptures but also the teachings of the Prophet that opened this dispensation. It teaches us to be lazy and not learn the words of God so that we can compare them to current teachings. We let others do the thinking for us and we just follow along.
Do we idolize our modern prophets so much that we will not seek to compare their teachings with the Word of God? If we follow along and accept anything our prophets teaches it because a living prophet "trumps" a dead one then we have failed the test. And our minds will be darkened as a result.
Now I don't want people to think that I believe that our living prophets are false. I don't. I believe they are true prophets. And I also believe that today, just like in the past, God allows our modern prophets to mislead us as a test of our faithfulness to Him.
Here's one last quote:
“We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them [even] if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves.”-JOSEPH SMITH: Millennial Star, Vol 14, Number 38, pages 593-595.
In conclusion I find it interested that the teaching, that prophets cannot lead us astray, came from the same conference where the Manifesto was presented. And also that Manifesto banning Plural Marriage contradicts four previous revelations. One of those revelations stating that God will never revoke it. But I'll save all the Manifesto/Plural Marriage stuff for another thread.
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We should have just let them stay the Republic of Texas.
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A SAMPLE of pure language
given by Joseph the Seer as copied by Br Johnson
Question. What is the name of God in pure Language
Answer. Awman.
Q. The meaning of the pure word Awman
A. It is the being which made all things in all its parts.
Q. What is the name of the Son of God.
A. The Son Awman.
Q. What is the Son Awman.
A. It is the greatest of all the parts of Awman which is the godhead the first born.
Q. What is man.
A. This signifies Sons Awman. the human family the children of men the greatest parts of Awman Sons the Son Awman
Q. What are Angels called in pure language.
A. Awman Angls men
Q. What are the meaning of these words.
A .Awman’s Ministering servants Sanctified who are sent forth from heaven to minister for or to Sons Awmen the greatest part of Awman Son. Sons Awmen Son Awmen Awman
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I've studied it and discussed it. But I've only discussed it in a reverent manner.
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I thought they were still functioning in Utah.
Yeah, I thought they had infiltrated every level of government in every country around the world.
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Does this mean you can be sealed in the temple but not be legally married?
Historically, Yes it was possible. It was possible to be sealed outside of the temple.
Also, I really don't think that the church would continue with plural marriage at this time. Even in countries where plural marriages are allowed, and even expected, we do not practice it. I'm sure that if the Lord declared it necessary for us to continue living this law, at this time, a way would have been provided in spite of the legal opposition by the US gov. This is a big planet.
The Lord already has declared the necessity of Plural Marriage. Historically we can see that the Manifesto was only a way to hold off the US government and not to actually stop Plural Marriages. As I said it wasn't until Heber J. Grant that the Manifesto was implemented to fully affect the church.
After the issue of the Manifesto in 1890 ways were provided to still Practice Plural Marriage. These included traveling to other countries to perform Plural Marriages. Performing Plural Marriages at sea. The practice of Concubinage. Even marrying another wife after the death of the first was considered a way around the Manifesto and the government. That is the only one that has remained with us today.
It is only because of our wickedness and refusal to learn and live the word of God, that we are prevented from living the fullness of the New and Everlasting Covenant.
But anyway these are examples of times when Sealings were done that did not include legal marriages. Which is something else I learned. What is the difference between a legal and a lawful marriage? Legal is the law of the land. Lawful is by the laws of God.
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LDS have lived with that Supreme Court injunction for over 120 years.
That's not correct. Authorized Plural Marriages were performed as late as 1907. And many, not a few, were authorized and performed between 1890 and 1907. The Manifesto was not put into full force until Heber J. Grant. For years Plural Marriages were not legalized by the law of the land. Legalization of marriages by the law of the land is irrelevent when it comes to sealings.
EDIT: I guess I should rephrase. Yes it is true we have lived with it. But we have not obeyed it for 120 years.
Then we can also consider Concubinage. In this a man and women make a solemn covenant before God without a ceremony or officiator/priesthood leader. This was considered a lesser type of marriage. Today we would just consider this living together, but at one point it was acceptable as a way around the manifesto.
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I don't think the FATHER would ever fall. Who is there to tempt HIM? After eons of immersing HIMSELF in the work of begetting and rearing children to exaltation (which is HIS glory), why would HE one day decide to throw it all away?
I think the FATHER has overcome all opposition possible to reach HIS lofty estate. I don't think anything else exists that could overcome HIS power or even tempt HIM to cease being GOD.
Yes. I agree. But what I believe it is saying is that there is the capacity for that to happen. Not that is will happen. If God changed he would cease to be God. We know God will never ceas eto be God so we also therefor must know that God will not change.
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I always thought it meant heavenly beings, meaning God, Jesus, Michael, and all of us. For a long time it had never crossed my mind that it could be taken to mean more than one GOD.
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My wife and I were fasting and praying to be able to go to the Philippines to see her family this year. Because of paying tithing we were surprised when we got over $5,000 on our tax refund. It was an amazing blessing and I still thank the Lord for it. Also we got our flights at an amazing price and we were able to fly safely here to the Phils. We will be leaving in about 2 week. Which is even more blessings that despite all indications we were able to advance our departing flight by a week without any extra payment. This whole vacation has been a miracle.
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That is interesting I never thought about it in that way. And the oil does kind of look like blood. That same why the moon turns to blood during and eclipse. It's not really blood it just looks similar.
I saw on the yahoo news that the sun is entering an active phase for the next 11 years. It almost scared me silly seeing as how all those movies show news reports about strange sun activity just before the world is destroyed. hehehe.
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If God doesn't want him to serve a mission why should it matter to you? That choice is between him and God.
God doesn't give everyone a Yes answer when they pray about the Book of Mormon. Why should He give everyone a Yes answer when they pray to go on a mission. Who are we to say God is wrong? God loves all of His children and knows them perfectly. He knows we are not all the same and He has a unique plan for each of us.
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Hahaha, Q, that's a good one. I think we may be able to read thoughts but it would be more limited. Someone will only be abl eto read my thoughts if I let them. There are some things that are personal with a spouse that you don't want others to know.
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That's really amazing. There are so many wonderful blessings and promises associated with the building of the City of Zion, not just Zion in general.
Smoking & Temple
in Advice Board
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The word of wisdom was revealed "not by commandment or constraint". If we seek to alter this by making it a commandment it is going against God's will. If God wanted it to be a commandment he would have revealed it as such not changed his mind halfway through. if any think that is taught contrary to Go'd commandments it is from a false spirit.
There isn't even an attempt at making it a commandment by changing sSection 89 or adding another official declaration or what not. it is just a policy change. A policy of men. A modern prophet cannot "trump" a dead prophet if the modern prophet has contradicted the dead one. Just ask Joseph Smith, Jr.
As far as addiction then it is not the substance that is bad it is our reaction to it. If I am addicted to non caffinated soda am I breaking the word of wisdom or not? I woudlnt be. But I would be breaking another commandment that does affect my eternal salvation, Idolatry. Soda would have become my idol as I would be seeking it rather than God.
Now about the cigarette butt eating child. Yes, I am disgusted too. And I'm not the one who will judge the eternal salvation of that child. But he will not receive the promises in the Word of Wisdom.
Yes the destroying angel will pass over those who choose to obey teh Word of Wisdom. But someone being taken by the destroying angel doesn't determine that persons salvation. It is just a means of physical death.
When the Saviour says that what you eat isn't what defiles us. I think I will believe Him.
I know I'm not going to be making any difference here and I could probably get banned so I'm just going to stop right now. If you want to discuss it further just PM me.