chitchat

At least get a Berkey or some other water purification system, so you can access a creek. Berkey Water Filter Systems and Purifiers, Emergency Water Filters from British Berkefeld

Wow, great points all of you. Thanks for taking time to share.

LM, I really enjoy the way you write in your posts - they're fun to read and informative. Elgama, thanks for clarifying. I think you use wisdom when you prioritize according to where you see God leading. As long as God is leading through His Holy Spirit in us and through the Bible, I think we find blessing. As for prophets in our time, I'm researching all of this. I am sure you would agree that blind obedience to any human being is not wise. We need God's Spirit guiding us toward truth and wisdom. Reading the Bible and staying in prayer is vital. As an aside, I also love Pam's gingerbread cookie avatar! :) That has got to be one of the cutest I've ever seen. The facial expression is so precious and too often captures how I feel sometimes. ha!

If a person leaves the Mormon church and attends another denomination for a while, is he excommunicated?

That's okay, Pam. ((((((Thanks)))))) for explaining. :) People outside the Mormon church can get the impression that Mormon families have it more together than families of other faiths do. The young men riding bikes around town look so neatly groomed and mature. And wow, the Brigham Young University choir is like incredible, you know? And I do believe that family responsibilities are emphasized in the Mormon church which is a very good thing. Not to drift my own thread, but I was kinda hoping to hear that things are much better in the Mormon church than in other churches, mainly because it's just so sad seeing the direction many of the young people today are headed. It would give me joy to know that somewhere on this earth things are going pretty well, but the reality is that we all need Christ's return. I believe the public schools contribute greatly to the teenage rebellion problem, but that's that "other thread" - lol! As far as SLC, nope, I'm just not very familiar with other cities in Utah, that's all. I've heard of Provo, but know nothing about it.

Glenn Beck had a documentary exposing a lot of what is behind or has led up to the "progressive movement" today. It appears to me that the progressive movement is behind MSNBC and also the BBC which tends to be liberal. I will agree that FOX has its share of bias, but I don't think it's possible for any human being to be totally neutral when it comes to news. This is because we all hold to one worldview or another. Still, FOX tends to at least give both sides of the issue much more than the other networks. This gives some info on the progressive movement. It's origins are pretty sordid and that's what Beck exposed in last week's commentary. YouTube - Glenn Beck A Closer Look At The Progressive Movement

That makes it clear. Thanks to you all for respectfully explaining that. Those are very interesting thoughts about the apostasy. What I'm about to say is not for the purpose of arguing. I'm trying to understand clearly where Mormons stand on this. It is confusing to me. I have no intention of showing disrespect for anyone's right to believe as they do. I am simply trying to understand and see if I see the same things that some here do. It could be that once I understand, that I will. HiJolly said, "We believe that we are saved if we believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Redeemer, and signify that belief by being baptized, receiving the Holy Ghost, and following what He told us we should do." Are you saying that in order to be saved (salvation and deliverance from our sins), we must make the decision to believe in Christ, be baptized, and obey His commandments? The reason I ask is that Protestants believe they must also do those things as followers of Christ, but Christ's sacrifice on the cross was sufficient enough to completely cover our sins and give us salvation. What we actually do or don't do does not gain us salvation per se outside of believing that Christ is our Savior. In other words, sadly, we are frail humans and will continue sinning and fighting sin after we are saved by Christ. He alone saves us, and it happens not by our own actions. Nothing we do can wash away our own sins. Christ is omnipotent and sovereign. For a Protestant to think that anything he does will gain him salvation - cheapens the sacrifice Christ made on the cross. If all I have to do to gain salvation is believe, be baptized, and follow the Commandments, then why would Christ have had to die on the cross? Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." God even gives us the faith we need. I'm wondering if this is where some get the idea that Mormons believe in "works". I am not sure that Mormons actually believe that because you sing the great hymns written by Protestants and as such, it would appear that we think similarly, but I'm confused and trying to understand better. Do you believe that you must be baptized and follow the Commandments in order to be saved?

That's a good point about being able to help others and it's a noble heart that thinks to do that. Hopefully knowing how to garden, save seed, etc. will help others learn how to catch their own fish, so to speak. Part of the problem is that many people (of several faiths) who know to prepare don't do it, for assurance that they can lean on someone else. I think LM already mentioned that. Pam, I live in the eastern part of the country and have never visited Utah. I do know a lot of Mormons live in Utah. I guess that Salt Lake City is the only big city I'm aware of in that state and since we're talking about big cities, that's the one I thought of. You brought up concern over a question I asked about home schooling in another thread. If it helps, then I can leave this board if my questions are making some uncomfortable. I'm honestly just trying to understand some of the beliefs and that requires that I ask hard questions, but I do realize that some people are disrespectful of the right of Mormons to believe as they do, so there could be sensitivity and a wondering "why" some questions are asked. I do not have that kind of negative motive, but genuinely want to understand the reasons behind some of the beliefs. I do think deeply and will ask deep questions sometimes. I like a lot of things about the Mormon church such as the music and the fact that so many prepare, or at least have businesses helping others do so. I do not understand some of the beliefs which is why I'm asking questions. I hope that helps allay any misunderstandings here. Some of the thread titles here appear to welcome questions by others, so I thought it was okay to do so, but I could be misunderstanding. If so, I can honor a direct request to leave here on this thread and I will politely thank all who shared their hearts respectfully.

Someone said, "yes, the apostasy happened. I'm pretty sure another apostasy will not happen again." Now I'm really confused. Please help me understand. Okay, maybe I'm mistaken here, but doesn't the Mormon church consider itself the only one true church of God on the earth right now? If that is true, then doesn't it follow that Mormons would consider all the other faiths to be apostasies? Or at least religions like Buddhism, New Age, etc. to be apostasies?

Elgama, so if the Prophet told you to stop preparing and only have 3 days of food in your kitchen at a time, would you do that? It's okay if that's how you feel. I'm not criticizing you; I'm just trying to understand. It sounds a little like everything the Prophet tells you to do is exactly what you do. Am I misunderstanding? Or is this how it is with all Mormons? (And I mean no disrespect for whomever your Prophet is as I don't know who is who. The only prophet I've heard some talk about is Joseph Smith. Is he the one you're talking about?) I can say that the few articles I've read by people (whom I'm guessing are called prophets) sounded like good practical advice. Personally, I'm a little leery of complete obedience to any human being because I've seen abuse in churches before and it really does a lot of spiritual damage to those who trusted. Steve Arterburn wrote a good book on this called Toxic Faith. Sometimes people in leadership roles sin in some bad ways (i.e., the Catholic church).

MSNBC is a propaganda machine, in my opinion. America can use less of that. Actually, I could do without 95% of what is on tv in general. So much sleeze and filth and lying. We own a tv, but usually only watch Glenn Beck, some of Fox News (even then the immodest dress of the info-babes is disgusting), and we mostly use our tv to watch home videos. (Sorry for the thread drift - tv has so much potential to do good, but is currently being misused.)

Thanks for answering, LM. Okay, bear with me as I'm trying to see this. You said, "We figure Joseph Smith was chosen by God to restore Christ's church, as it had fallen into apostacy." What was this apostasy that the church had fallen into and that Joseph Smith took note of? You know that the Protestant Reformation came about due to concerns about the Catholic church. Is this what concerned JS? Or was there something going on within the church in early America that concerned JS? Also, do you know if any of the Founding Fathers of our country or the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Mormon?

ROFLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is so funny! I like it. I think a lot of people fall into all those categories, depending. They just have different descriptions. So do most Mormons think that Skousen is a nut?

Pam, in evangelical circles quite a few parents say they put their kids in public schools so they can be a witness or proselytize. What is happening is that most of those kids are losing their faith. I wonder how many Mormons homeschool their kids because (with the situation as it is right now in public schools), it is getting harder and harder for kids to learn good habits, correct history, and decent morals. Statistically speaking, American children are getting a really awful education in the public schools. I was hoping to hear that most Mormons home school because statistically it is so much better academically and socially, but I guess that most use the public schools. I wish most people of every faith would consider options outside public schooling, but I don't know of any one faith where that is the case.

I do not know how it is in the Mormon church, but elsewhere more and more women are leaving their husbands and children in search of a supposed greater fulfillment. This is very tragic in my mind. I do not mean to drift this thread, so please don't anyone comment on this link, but just read it and you'll be aghast at how so many women have lost touch with their maternal instincts. Too many define "success" as having a job and money. They view kids as objects to own. Pew Helps Explain Why the Right Man Is Getting Harder for Educated Women to Find. - WSJ.com

Thanks. I am reading the two links you shared and may comment more once I read further through them. It appears from the links that the teaching of Joseph Smith (as given in the book of Mormon) supercedes the teaching in the Bible to a large extent. I say that because I see very few Biblical scriptures referenced, but a preponderance of verses from the book of Mormon. It appears that to be a Mormon, you have to have complete faith that Joseph Smith was a prophet and also view the book of Mormon as being equal in value or importance to the Bible. Am I understanding that correctly? I realize that the intent of the person writing the words in those two links may not be to diminish Christ, but the emphasis seems to be far more strongly centered on Joseph Smith. That is confusing to me. Am I misunderstanding? Also, Rev. 22:18 warns believers not to add to or take from anything in the Bible. I'm amazed that Joseph Smith would do such a thing in good conscience. Are there any scriptures in the Bible that foretold the coming of Joseph Smith or the new revelations that he would share? I'm trying to understand.

We're all human and no one can accurately predict what may happen next. That's a given. What is also a given is that each one of us does not know whether hardship will hit us this very day, tomorrow, next year, ten years from now or fifty. I saw a thread where someone offered to help people living in cities. That sounded odd to me for someone to offer to help strangers on a board and tell them where they live. It looks like that thread was closed for good reason. But it also looked from some responses like a lot of people feel real secure living in cities. I'm surprised by that because Joel Skousen (who is a Mormon) advises people to live in rural areas for their best outcome, should troubles arise. I will repeat that I have no idea as to the future any more than anyone else does here, but most large cities in our nation do have missiles pointing at them from Russia. I'm not saying Russia is any particular threat right now, but just the fact that the missiles are pointing at our cities makes me feel uneasy. I'd sure rather that not be the case. Also, there is a lot of talk in the news nowadays about a possible Depression ahead. America is bankrupt. Now if Salt Lake City is 90% Mormon and most of those Mormons are well prepared for hard times, then I agree that SLC will make it through pretty well. People could pull together and help one another. But some here have told me that Salt Lake City is only 50% Mormon. In that case, there could be some real trouble with social unrest if a Depression got bad enough. Anyway, so it seems to me. If preparedness is just to get through a job layoff, then some Mormon businesses are doing a fantastic job of preparing people for a much bigger event. I think there are Mormons who believe things could get much worse before they get better. Skousen is one of them, I suspect.

I am sorry about your situation. A few years ago I helped a friend connect with a domestic abuse counselor so she could get help. It was an extremely hard time for her. She felt so guilty as though it was all her fault, when it wasn't. I am encouraged seeing so many well-reasoned replies to your thread here. I am a big proponent of marrying and staying married until death do us part. But, in situations involving abuse or infidelity where a spouse is not repentant, it is unbearable for the spouse who tries so hard to make things work out. I thought that the Mormon church taught that married couples should stay married no matter what, but I guess I misunderstood. It sounds like marriage is honored, but only when both people are fulfilling their marital and spiritual responsibilities. I'm so sorry for your pain and will pray for you. One thing: There are ministries to help men with addiction to porn. Has your husband contacted any of those? Or is he willing to? I don't know details of your situation, but if he's physically violent, then you get to get to a safe place. Most every community has free shelters and counselors available to help women navigate through this.

I'm reading a book titled Maranatha, Our Lord, Come! by Renald Showers. It's a definitive study on Christ's return. I'm trying to prove to myself one way or the other - all the details surrounding Christ's return. I'm pretty amazed so far because the scriptures I'm reading are showing that Christ is going to return for His church and there will be a wedding supper in Heaven. Throughout the New Testament I find scriptures speaking of the church as the bride of Christ. Other scriptures seem to show that later - He will return again to judge the earth. He will deal with all unrighteous people who refuse to follow Him, and then the Millennium will come. "The Day of the Lord" is spoke of a lot in scriptures. Pg. 30 of the book says, "The Day of the Lord refers to to God's special interventions ito the course of world events to judge His enemies, accomplish His purpose for history, and thereby demonstrate who He is - the sovereign God of the universe (Isa. 2:10-22; Ezek. 13:5, 9, 14, 21, 23; 30:3, 8, 19, 25-26)." It's fascinating seeing what these scriptures say. I guess I did not clarify my question very well because it would take so many words. What I mean to ask is this: Do Mormons believe that Christ is coming again for His church and then coming back to judge the earth as part of "the Day of the Lord"? There seem to be a lot of scriptures in the book of Daniel that dovetail with many New Testament scriptures on this. I am reading scriptures indicating that Christ may return for His church prior to the Great Tribulation spoken of in the book of Revelation. To me, if this is so, then wow, it's so encouraging! I just wondered what the Mormon church teaches about this.

I've been wondering what Mormons believe as I'm trying to learn more.

This person's book holds good insight for anyone who is interested: Why I Left The Contemporary Christian Music Movement: Confessions Of A Former Worship Leader ~ Dan Lucarini Amazon.com: Why I Left The Contemporary Christian Music Movement: Confessions Of A Former Worship Leader (9780852345177): Dan Lucarini, John Blanchard: Books Also, this one which might be even better: Can We Rock the Gospel?: Rock Music's Impact on Worship and Evangelism (Paperback) ~ John Blanchard (Author), Dan Lucarini (Author) Amazon.com: Can We Rock the Gospel?: Rock Music's Impact on Worship and Evangelism (9780852346280): John Blanchard, Dan Lucarini: Books

These are scriptures from the Bible on the final return of Christ to this earth: * "So when they had come together, they asked Him, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which The Father [see also The Logos] has fixed by His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth." And when He had said this, as they were looking on, He was lifted up, and a cloud took Him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as He went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, Who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw Him go into heaven." Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem." (Acts 1:6-12 RSV) * "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken [see Signs In The Heavens]; then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matthew 24:29-31 RSV) * "Then The Lord will go forth and fight against those nations as when He fights on a day of battle. On that day His feet shall stand on The Mount Of Olives which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward [see Earthquake!]. And the valley of my mountains shall be stopped up, for the valley of the mountains shall touch the side of it; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then The Lord your God will come, and all the holy ones with Him." (Zechariah 14:3-5) * "For The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet The Lord in the air." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 RSV) [see The Last Day] * "And The Lord will become king over all the earth; on that day The Lord will be one and His Name one." (Zechariah 14:9 RSV) [see King Of The Mountain] * "It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of The Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be raised up above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it, and many nations shall come, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of The Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that He may teach us His ways and we may walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of The Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more; but they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree, and none shall make them afraid; for the mouth of The Lord of hosts has spoken." (Micah 4:1-4 RSV) [see The Kingdom of God] * "And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And The Lord, the God of the spirits of the Prophets, has sent His angel to show His servants what must soon take place. And behold, I am coming soon." Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book." (Revelation 22:6-7 RSV)

I'm impressed. Does the church discourage young people from listening to rock music throughout the week too?

For the record, I love the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and it appears from the outside as though the church cherishes music that lifts the spirit as opposed to the sensual. Am I right about that?

I think God's approval will suffice, but your sense of humor is clever. What beautiful thoughts are shared here. I hope more will follow on both threads as this is enlightening to me. The coming together of hearts is wonderful and who knows who might read these threads and be strengthened by them. I hope that's the result. Keep the thoughts coming! :)