Jamie123

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Everything posted by Jamie123

  1. I'm a little disappointed to see that the thread on the "Bible vs. Book of Mormon" video has been deleted. I understand that this isn't the place for posting anti-Mormon material, but I was looking forward to seeing a reasoned LDS response to the claims made in the video. I'm sure there are answers out there. If it were so obvious that the LDS religion was false, it would have ceased to exist long ago. P.S. In case you're wondering, I was not the original poster of that thread. P.P.S. Having thought about it a little more, I think the moderator probably was justified in deleting the thread. Rather than posting a link to the video (which does contain anti-Mormon rhetoric), the the OP should probably have summarized the more objective parts of its argument and called for opinions.)
  2. Jamie123

    A little disappointed...

    You were going to respond to who? Are you sure you posted this message in the right thread? P.S. Maybe you're confusing me with MichaelJ.
  3. Jamie123

    A little disappointed...

    I was referring to the assumptions made in the video, not to assumptions made by Mormons (though I've seen several (unofficial) maps on the Internet placing the Nephite and Lamanite kingdoms in Central America).
  4. Jamie123

    Why why why

    Well he still plays for England - or at least he did until quite recently.
  5. Jamie123

    Why why why

    I thought she was talking about David Beckham!
  6. Jamie123

    Why why why

    I like treacle tarts. I'd eat them all day if they didn't make you fat. Wait a minute - I *AM* already fat!!
  7. Jamie123

    A little disappointed...

    I think my main problem is the assumption that it ALL necessarily took place in Central America, and that's the only place you would ever find archeological remains. (America is a pretty enormous land mass!) It also assumes that the shape of the lands was the same in 600BC as it is now (though of course I'm no expert on geology).
  8. Jamie123

    Explain your screen name/avatar,

    I totally believe you!
  9. Jamie123

    Do truely good people exist?

    Definitely there are! They're called BMW drivers!
  10. Jamie123

    the bible?

    I've often wondered what Mormons do about the Bible in non English-speaking countries. If independent non-English translations are allowed, why are the LDS so against using other English translations (RSV, NIV, Good News etc.)? Biblical scholarship has moved on since 1611. Many older and more reliable manuscripts have come to light since then, and these have been available to the more recent translators.(Of course you may take the view that the Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus contain Satanic alterations, and though older are less reliable than the MSS available in 1611, but I've never heard any Mormon say this.)
  11. I remember seeing the complete Temple Endowment ceremony (an old and a new versions) posted on the Web about 10 years ago. I've no idea if it is still there. (Of course it might not have been genuine. It would be difficult for a non-Mormon like me to find out either way, as no faithful Mormon would be allowed to talk about it.)
  12. Jamie123

    Why why why

    ...their religion...Now write that out out five hundred times! Yours pedantically - Jamie
  13. Jamie123

    It's okay son

    LOL - It's a new version of a very old joke: Mother: Get out of bed, it's time to go to school. Son: I'm not going to school. Mother: Give me one good reason why not? Son: I'll give you four: 1. I don't like the students. 2. The students don't like me. 3. I don't like the teachers. 4. The teachers don't like me! Mother: Well I'll give you one good reason why you do have to go: You're the school principal!
  14. Jamie123

    Explain your screen name/avatar,

    "Jamie" is short for James - my middle name. Some people know me as "Jamie" in real life. My avatar is "Titch and Quackers", an almost-forgotten British kids' TV show from the late 60's and early 70's, which features in some of my earliest childhood memories. This is the only picture of them I have ever been able to find on the web.
  15. Jamie123

    Why why why

    Protestants are often taught not to trust their feelings, but to check everything against scripture (i.e. the Bible). Since they won't find any unambiguous references to a "restored gospel" (at least not in the sermons they've heard) they'll conclude that it must be false teaching and attack it.Of course, it all rests on the assumption that the Bible itself is "true", and where are you going to get proof of that other than through prayer and subjective feeling?
  16. Jamie123

    Why why why

    Years ago, I used to argue a lot with Mormon missionaries in exactly the way you describe. In my case it was because a good part of me wanted Mormonism to be true, but couldn't quite bring myself to believe it ("too good to be true"), and wasn't prepared to trust whatever subjective feelings I was told to pray for. My approach was to try to knock holes in Mormon theology and see if it stood up. The missionaries (who are not really trained apologists) sometimes reacted rather badly to this, and things sometimes did turn ugly. I don't do this any more, because it really gets you nowhere. (Plus I've learned something about the pressures the Sisters and Elders are under, and how they deserve rather more kindness from people in general.) At the same time though, I don't think people who criticize Mormon ideas are necessarily coming against the Church in anger. People often don't know what they really want, and can't bring themselves to accept it when they do find it. They sometimes react in ways that seem odd to people with a clearer world-picture.
  17. There is a thread elsewhere on this site asking: “Would you date a convert?” A good many people answered “yes” or “absolutely!”, but I find it troubling that the question should be asked at all. The “no” argument seems to run: If you are a convert to Mormonism then you must have a pre-Mormon "past", which probably involved a certain degree of "sinning" - maybe even of a sexual nature - and though God has wiped your slate clean, this possibility renders you unfit to marry someone who has lived the Gospel faithfully since childhood. Bad news indeed for the single convert in a traditionally Mormon area, who (if everyone took this view) would need to search for another single convert to marry, or remain permanently single and never enjoy the blessings of matrimony. Ergo “converts are second-class citizens”. It disturbs me deeply that anyone who considers himself "Christian" should even consider this. It seems to go so totally against everything Christ taught - not to mention that Joseph Smith himself was a convert (as were all Mormons of his generation). But of course that's just my opinion.
  18. I have nowhere suggested that they are not bad. Lung cancer is bad, but if a person dies of lung cancer caused by excessive smoking, what killed them? The smoking or the cancer? The answer of course is both, but I think you would agree that the root cause was the smoking. Here we must differ. Willfully indulging in murderous thoughts does our souls the same damage as actual acts of murder. (Though obviously the temporal consequences are less severe.) We must strive to be clean in thoughts, as well as in actions. Of course we will slip from time to time (just as we will continue to lust after attractive members of the opposite sex) which is why we need continually to repent, ask God's forgiveness and strive to do better. OK so we're in agreement here. Isaac Newton was not a Mormon. Does that mean you don't care about gravity? Seriously though, if you "don't care" about the ideas of anyone outside your Church, then maybe I'd better not mention them again. Not irrelevant at all - as I've discussed above. Are you telling me you've never ever done your "own thing" when deep down you've known that God had other plans for you? If so, you're either fooling yourself, or you're a better Christian than I'll ever be in this life! Maybe I have a guilty conscience, but I suspect you're talking about me. It's sometimes difficult to put your feelings over in the face of opposition without appearing arrogant. But yes, the cap does fit: Like every other fallen human, I have issues in my life which I need continuously to address.
  19. It's interesting that the Catholic Seven Deadly Sins (yes, I know you're not a Catholic - I'll come to that in a minute) make no mention of specific acts like murder and theft - they are all things like pride, envy and greed which might lead to such acts. Real sin is the root-cause of evil deeds - rape and cannibalism (to use your examples) are the symptoms. I'm not exactly sure what the Mormon thinking about pride is, but the discussions I've had with missionaries lead me to think it's very similar to that of mainstream Christianity. The Christian writers I was thinking of (David Watson for example, or C.S. Lewis) are not by-and-large Mormons, but I think their ideas are worth "caring about" - even to members of your Church. What was the cause of his rebellion if not pride?
  20. This suggests that man can "earn" the right to a "pure" wife by being pure himself. But Jesus said: "...whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Matt 5:28). Don't tell me that the most morally upright man in the world hasn't done that (at least occasionally) when he's seen a pretty girl walk past. We are all sinners. None of us is any better than anyone else. It is only by Grace that any of us can be considered righteous. Of course, I'm not saying that every convert "with a past" is necessarily right for every non-convert who's spent his whole life trying (and that's the best any of us can do) to live out the Gospel. Some pairs of people are compatible, others are not, but for a man to rule out any "convert" as a potential marriage partner on the basis of their previous "sins of the flesh" (real or imagined) is surely a sin in itself. Apart from anything else, it shows a lack of faith in God's power to change people's lives. The things you mention are certainly worse in terms of their temporal consequences, and (for the good of society) must merit a greater punishment. But I don't believe God is a consequentialist: It is not the consequences of our sins that damage our relationship with God, but the effect those sins have upon ourselves - i.e. making us less worthy to enter His presence. Most theologians would agree that pride is the most detestable sin in the eyes of God and the original cause of Satan's fall. C.S. Lewis once wrote that "most evil is good gone wrong" but "pride comes to us straight from Hell". (I no longer have a copy of that book so I'm quoting from memory.)
  21. If I was single and an LDS convert, I'd have serious misgivings about dating anyone who answered "no" to this question. We all have "pasts" and we have all sinned - born "in the covenant" or not. The worst sin of all is thinking that you're better than other people.
  22. Considering that the names other two kingdoms are from Latin, probably not. The first two missionaries who I asked didn't seem to have ever considered the question. All they could say was that it was a word revealed to Joseph Smith.
  23. My understanding is rather different: Celestial Kingdom - those who accepted the gospel and fully lived out the covenant. Terrestrial Kingdom - those who accepted the gospel in this life but were lukewarm, together with those who rejected the gospel but otherwise lived good lives. Telestial Kingdom - those who rejected the gospel and/or lived wicked lives, but who paid the price for their own sins after death (by going temporarily to hell). Outer Darkness - those who actively allied themselves with Satan and his angels. Side note: Does anyone know meaning of the word "telestial"? The missionaries told me it's from the Latin tellus=earth, but that would give it roughly the same meaning as "terrestrial". The only alternative I can think of is the Greek teleos=complete, perfect (in the sense that souls who go there cannot progress further). Does anyone else have any ideas?
  24. Jamie123

    Whats so wrong with christian music???

    It's odd that you should think that: In the 16th. C, the "you" pronoun was deferential while the "thou" pronoun was familiar. Consider Macbeth, Act 4 Scene 2: The mother "speaks down" to her child, addressing him as "thou", while he replies to her with the more respectful "you". The modern use "thou" in religious contexts has almost reversed this convention.
  25. I've never totally understood what Mormons mean by the word "testimony". For most Christians, the act of "giving one's testimony" means telling the story of one's conversion, which is often quite lengthy and involved. For Mormons, it's a simple statement like "I know JS was a prophet" or "I know the church is true". Rarely any elaboration, apart from vague statements about "revelation" or "the Spirit". During my investigation of Mormonism I was often asked: "Did you feel the Spirit?" to which I'd reply "I don't know - what does the Spirit feel like?" The church member would usually mumble something about "burnings in the breast" (whatever that means) but promptly add that it's not necessarily like that for everyone. The bottom line was always: "You'll not mistake it when it happens". However, if I ever complained that I hadn't felt the Spirit, the response was usually "Well, what were you expecting to feel?" We'd just go round in circles. Having said that, the idea of "trusting the scriptures" in order to "gain a testimony" (that the scriptures are true) is a classic example of begging the question - so I would agree that it's difficult to look at this question logically.