Jamie123

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  1. Haha
    Jamie123 reacted to Vort in Politics today   
  2. Haha
    Jamie123 got a reaction from Vort in Ignorance is sad, but stupid is unfixable   
    Careless talk costs lives...
    (The BBC version was better but YouTube doesn't seem to have it)
  3. Haha
    Jamie123 got a reaction from Vort in Ignorance is sad, but stupid is unfixable   
    Careless talk costs lives...
    (The BBC version was better but YouTube doesn't seem to have it)
  4. Like
    Jamie123 got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Tucker Carlson, Rayshard Brooks, Garrett Rolfe and Mike Braun   
    I've been watching quite a lot of Tucker Carlson recently. Sometimes I find myself agreeing with him, but at other times I think he's almost as unhinged as the people he's laying into. Here for instance he's interviewing Republican senator Mike Braun over his non-Republican stance over [well you all know what's been going on lately].
    Anyway, he begins by saying how "disgraceful" it is that policeman Garret Rolfe is "facing the death penalty" for shooting dead Rayshard Brooks, after he punched him, stole his taser and fired it at another officer. He asks "What else could Rolfe have done?", as if this were some unanswerable rhetorical question.
    Well rather than dodge the question like Sen. Braun, I'm going to answer it.
    Call me a wet liberal if you will, but I think there is only one scenario in which the use of lethal force by the police is justified: an imminent threat to life. If he had grabbed an officer's loaded handgun it would have been another matter, but he didn't. He grabbed a taser. A taser is not a lethal weapon. Well OK, I guess it could be, if used against someone with a very weak heart, but not this particular taser. It had been fired twice, and could not be fired again without reloading. As Rolfe well knew.
    The "weapon" that Brooks was holding when he died had all the lethal force of a broken water pistol.
    "He took my taser" and "he punched me" just won't wash. Both deserve punishment for sure, but hardly a Judge-Dredd-style summary on-the-street execution.
    What else could Rolfe have done? Plenty. He had his colleagues around him, and others could easily have been called up. The suspect was on foot, and not lethally armed. Don't tell me that a team of skilled cops couldn't have run him down and captured him without filling his body with lead.
    As for "facing the death penalty", Rolfe hasn't even been tried yet, let alone sentenced.
    Admittedly this is all predicated on press reporting of this incident being accurate, but even Carlson isn't claiming any false news element. If this is the best example he can find of "police being unfairly persecuted" he obviously isn't looking very hard.
  5. Like
    Jamie123 got a reaction from Vort in Tucker Carlson, Rayshard Brooks, Garrett Rolfe and Mike Braun   
    I think the theory is that guilt and innocence are no business of anyone but the jury. Even a judge is not supposed to opine on whether a person is guilty or innocent. The most he/she can say is whether or not a "reasonable jury properly instructed" could find a person guilty based on the evidence presented.
  6. Haha
    Jamie123 reacted to Vort in Tucker Carlson, Rayshard Brooks, Garrett Rolfe and Mike Braun   
    FTR, I removed Point #3 because it came across as snarky and insulting, when I meant it to be, well, snarky and jovial.
  7. Thanks
    Jamie123 got a reaction from prisonchaplain in Title IX Believe the Victim or the Perpetrator?   
    Yes.
    To be a little less laconic, yes I think there should ba a presumption of innocence at that level as well as at the criminal court level. Otherwise it would be just too easy for a malicious accuser to have his/her way. "Do what I say or I'll accuse you of raping me - and you know I'll be the one who'll be believed!"
    They say false accusation is very rare. Whether that's true or not I dont know, but if it is, I bet it's at least partly down to the opposition that accusers face. Only those with a real complaint suffer through it. Remove that opposition,  and an important safeguard against false accusation is gone.
  8. Like
    Jamie123 got a reaction from Vort in Title IX Believe the Victim or the Perpetrator?   
    No it's not.
    I'm trying to demonstrate the fallacy of the argument: "Don't waste your efforts seeking justice for the falsely accused, when there are real rape victims who need justice far more."
    You might just as easily say "Don't waste your efforts seeking justice for rape victims, when there are murder victims out there."
  9. Like
    Jamie123 got a reaction from Midwest LDS in Title IX Believe the Victim or the Perpetrator?   
    It's also worse to be murdered than it is to be raped, but I've never heard that as an argument for going only after the murderers and letting the rapists go free.
  10. Like
    Jamie123 reacted to anatess2 in Brigham Young statue vandalized   
    I grew up in a Catholic family.  My parents didn't need to teach me anything about the "full history of the (Catholic or LDS) Church" for me to understand both churches is full of flawed people doing their best with what they know.  If kids are hearing the bad stuff from anti-Mormons and they trusted THEIR VALUES more than the parent's values when they're in conflict, then the parents FAILED IN TEACHING THEM HOW TO DISTINGUISH GOOD FROM BAD - another VALUE.
    A kid with "so much anger built up" because he hears bad stuff from anti-Mormons is another kid whose parents failed in teaching VALUES - Patience, Forgiveness, and Perseverance.
    And here's another failure - blaming somebody else for one's lack of values... is a lack of value.
    Yep.  Two VALUES.
  11. Like
    Jamie123 got a reaction from Midwest LDS in Title IX Believe the Victim or the Perpetrator?   
    It's also worse to be murdered than it is to be raped, but I've never heard that as an argument for going only after the murderers and letting the rapists go free.
  12. Like
    Jamie123 got a reaction from Vort in Title IX Believe the Victim or the Perpetrator?   
    No it's not.
    I'm trying to demonstrate the fallacy of the argument: "Don't waste your efforts seeking justice for the falsely accused, when there are real rape victims who need justice far more."
    You might just as easily say "Don't waste your efforts seeking justice for rape victims, when there are murder victims out there."
  13. Like
    Jamie123 got a reaction from Vort in Title IX Believe the Victim or the Perpetrator?   
    No it's not.
    I'm trying to demonstrate the fallacy of the argument: "Don't waste your efforts seeking justice for the falsely accused, when there are real rape victims who need justice far more."
    You might just as easily say "Don't waste your efforts seeking justice for rape victims, when there are murder victims out there."
  14. Like
    Jamie123 reacted to MormonGator in Brigham Young statue vandalized   
    The Confederate monuments should come down, but I'm going to blunt. Tearing them down will do absolutely nothing in terms of race relations or abuses against minorities. This is done so that white people can feel good about themselves and talk about how wonderful and tolerant they are, pat themselves on the back, and then go back to their daily lives. 
  15. Like
    Jamie123 reacted to Midwest LDS in Brigham Young statue vandalized   
    You are ok my friend. I also took some satisfaction watching Confederate statues removed throughout the South. I've always considered them traitors, who tried to destroy this country to maintain the horrific system of slavery. To be blunt they don't deserve to be honored. But I really hate mobs. I'm okay with statues of Robert E. Lee or Edward Colston being removed but I want it done through proper channels, otherwise we risk those mobs destroying monuments of people who do deserve to be honored like Ulysses S. Grant or John Newton.
  16. Like
    Jamie123 got a reaction from Midwest LDS in Brigham Young statue vandalized   
    I may well be digging a hole for myself, but here goes:
    I accept everything Vort says about the early LDS suffering at the hands of a mindless mob. That was totally wrong, and what's has been happening (to statues etc.) across the US and the UK is totally wrong too.
    Having said that, there are a lot of statues I would have been sadder to have seen dumped in the River Avon. Edward Colston waxed fat on the misery of thousands of black people, bought from African slave traders, shipped across the Atlantic under terrible conditions. Those who survived the voyages were sold as chattels in the New World, so that England could grow rich. Those slaves may not have been my ancestors (or even their neighbours) but they were human beings. Even compared to what happened to LDS in Ohio and Missouri, this has to count for something.
    Had it been John Newton I would have been deeply saddened: though once a slave trader, he repented and became an abolitionist. (He later wrote the hymn Amazing Grace; "how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me".) Colston as far as I know stayed a slave-trader all his life. Sure, he did a lot of charitable work, but only for white people.
    If I had my way, that statue would still be on its plinth, so that the people of Bristol could decide democratically what was to be done with it. I'd suggest putting it in a museum, so people could still see and appreciate an important - though flawed - figure of Bristol's history. (That's actually what's happening btw, now the statue has been fished out of the water.)
    So please excuse me for taking a certain grim satisfaction in what happened. If Vort can be forgiven for lacking sympathy, I think I can be too for having a little too much.
  17. Like
    Jamie123 reacted to Still_Small_Voice in Brigham Young statue vandalized   
    When I saw them hang a statue on a pole that was tore down in North Carolina after dragging it through the street I thought:  "This is a foreshadowing of what these mobs would do to people that disagree with them if they had absolute power."
    I think these small violent demonstrations will die out and this will not spread.  Most people in America still have some good sense.
  18. Like
    Jamie123 reacted to Midwest LDS in Brigham Young statue vandalized   
    Sorry thread jack real quick. Lincoln opposed slavery on a personal level for most of his life. You can find writings as far back as the 1840's mentioning his distate for the system. Lincoln, however, was also a strong believer in the Constitution. At the time, the Constitution gave him no authority to unilaterally end slavery. The quote he made was made at the start of the war, when he believed it would be short and when he had very little political support to end slavery. Ironically it was the rebels themselves who gave him the political capital to end slavery, and if you study his political decisions closely, you can see an almost undeviating course towards ending slavery, which he correctly believed had caused the war in the first place. First by compensated emancipation in the vital border states, then by freeing slaves held by the Confederacy, then by using all of his political clout to pass the Thirteenth Amendment abolishing slavery right before his death. Here's a quote from him on the subject, less famous than his preserve the Union quote, but more relevant "
    "I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel. ... And yet I have never understood that the Presidency conferred upon me an unrestricted right to act officially upon this judgment and feeling."
    Rioters don't have the historical knowledge to understand this. All they see is "he said something that sounds bad from a 21st century perspective so he's bad". It's why I will never trust a mob to make an intelligent decision.
  19. Haha
    Jamie123 got a reaction from Carborendum in Brigham Young statue vandalized   
    You may be right there. Once a statue comes down, everyone wants to "do one".
  20. Like
    Jamie123 reacted to Carborendum in Brigham Young statue vandalized   
    I remember Drumhead.  I am embarrassed to say that if it were presented as a movement I were more amenable to supporting, I don't know if I'd be immune to it.  I would probably go along with it.
    But the reason I'd consider myself more "sensible" is not because I'm immune to mob mentality.  I believe it because the "mob" that I'd tend to side with is the side that would be consistent with my set of values.  For instance:
    I don't understand how taking down statues of Abraham Lincoln (the man most responsible for ending slavery in America) would correlate with ending racial injustice.  I don't know how protesting for racial equality would include ransacking small businesses owned by minorities. I don't know how Christians who believe a cult is growing too powerful would go about raping the cult's women to death and justify it as God's will.
  21. Like
    Jamie123 got a reaction from Midwest LDS in Brigham Young statue vandalized   
    Absolutely. Thats why we need to be on our guard. In our calmer moments we all think we're "the sensible ones".
    Remember "The Drumhead"? Even Worf got dragged along!
  22. Like
    Jamie123 reacted to Vort in Brigham Young statue vandalized   
    Perhaps it was. This (cheering mobs destroying statues) is an example of precisely the kind of mobthink that I abhor so much, and that afflicts the American political Left to such a great degree. Those with insufficiently enlightened opinions must be silenced! Persecute the evil non-believers! Perhaps my ancestral memories of just this sort of mobocracy that resulted in the persecution, imprisonment, rape, and murder of my ancestors and their neighbors only a few generations back tends to make me all the more intolerant of those who willingly abdicate their minds and emotions just so they can signal their virtue as loudly as possible.
  23. Like
    Jamie123 reacted to anatess2 in Brigham Young statue vandalized   
    A parent doesn't have to teach his kids history.  A parent NEEDS TO TEACH his kids good manners and right conduct which includes self-discipline, repentance, forgiveness, humility and charity among other Godly virtues.
    A parent doesn't need to know history himself.  A child will learn history out of curiosity.  "Nobody taught me this" - is a victimhood mentality.  The attitude that it is somebody else's fault that I didn't know X - that is an indication of a lack of virtue.  So yes, a parent can successfully parent even when such parent is illiterate if the parent successfully instills Godly virtues in his children, especially the virtue of humility - the acknowledgment that I don't know everything and, therefore, I can learn something from everybody else, living or dead, abolitionist or slave trader.
     
  24. Like
    Jamie123 reacted to JohnsonJones in Brigham Young statue vandalized   
    Riots, vandalism, looting, and mobbing normally do not win people to your side of the equation.  I think it actually turns many who would otherwise be sympathetic to one's cause against them in most cases.  Rarely is it beneficial, though on occasion when it actually reflects popular opinion, it can boost a campaign IF it is done specifically and directly against those the majority opposes.  When one does not have the majority to support you, it doesn't really help much.
    I am probably outspoken on many of the Confederate statues and other symbology from the South.  They rebelled against the nation, which is true.  Most were also pardoned after the war and the veterans honored as Americans.  It was part of the Southern legacy and as such, was something that Southerners had grown to respect (at least many of them).  Part of this was that during the reconstruction the Southerners had trouble grappling with their past.  They were a defeated people and as such, it was hard to find pride in those their heritage came from.  A concerted effort through the years showed that we did not necessarily have to be ashamed of our heritage, that even if they were wrong in many aspects, the leaders and people who were Confederates during the Civil War were MORE than just people who fought against the Union.  Many had noble qualities that one could look up to, and even if many of the reasons were wrong to fight the war, there were still many honorable people on both sides.  It was a tragic war, but one did not have to be ashamed of their legacy, even if the people were flawed themselves.
    The Confederate flag is seen today as the symbol of racism and racial hatred.  When I was growing up it was not so.  I think people in the rest of the nation and even some of the youth today do NOT understand why it was utilized.  It was the symbol of rebellion.  It was the symbol of stubborn pride, and that of "being against the system."  This is why it was adopted by many of the racist groups at the time, because they were also rebelling against the system as they saw it.  HOWEVER, even as they also used it, they were not the ONLY ones that used it nor held it in such a manner.  It represented a sentiment that the Federal system was also tyrannical to a degree, and that states should hold more power over that of a strong Federal Government.  It also was used in a manner just to show one's independence and independent thought.  Sometimes it was just to show rebellion against local law enforcement (a popular notion that was utilized in such fashion by the design of the General Lee, a car in a 1980's TV show called the Dukes of Hazzard).
    I know why many in other parts of the nation do not understand this about the South's heritage, NOR about the Flag that was used...but it was common for many in the South to understand when I was young and growing up.  There is no reason those who are youth in the South that they should be that ignorant though.
    As time has moved on though, and it has become more associated with racist groups and racist thoughts, I agree that the old stars and bars battle flag should be done away with (though ironically, Georgia still uses the stars and bars, but an older version of it that was an actual flag of the confederacy...so...still a sign of heritage and rebellion against the overbearance of government).  Some of the statues that have become rallying points for racists probably should also be done away with...but the amount and way that many go about trying to get rid of these statues bothers me occasionally.  It seems more like they are trying to erase history rather than erase the symbols of racism.
    In the same way, as popularity has gained in this manner, I see a movement to do away and erase Brigham Young from history in the West also.  As the church has bent it's knee to some of the Anti-Mormon demands in recent years and incorporated their ideas (ideas which would have previously gotten people excommunicated had they spread them in the church like they are today) it could be eventually the church does as these people demand.  However, it has not yet. 
    In addition, there is no call for the vandalism, and I find it appalling.  Hopefully there are cameras that survey campus and they know exactly what those who did this look like.
  25. Like
    Jamie123 got a reaction from Vort in Songs that Don't Make Sense   
    And speaking of Lady Antebellum, they've now decided their name is politically incorrect. They're just plain "Lady A" now. (And don't you dare ask what the A stands for!)
    Utter nonsense. One can appreciate the elegance of the Antebellum South without approving of slavery - just as one can appreciate the culture and achievements of 5th Century Athens - or even pre-Norman Conquest England - without doing the same.