prisonchaplain

PC SAYS: Acts 17: 28 poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Paul is addressing a group of intellectuals and explaining that just as they have known that we are the offspring (i.e. creation) of God, he is now going to tell them who that God is and how they can be reconciled to Him. That we are called offspring would not be meant to contradict John 3:16, in which Jesus is called the ONLY begotten of God. Yes, I did add the clarifying term in parenthesis--not as a slight of hand--but, well, as a clarification. I'll break this down as I see it: 1. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (KJV). This also gets translated "the one and only Son of God." (NIV) Regardless, there is a uniqueness to Jesus' relationship with God--one we do not share. 2. We are sons of God. We were created by Him. Of this there is not doubt (revisit Gen. 1 & 2). 3. So, my clarification is that we, as God's offspring, are the creation of God, the sons of daughters of his creative power, not the begotten children of God--that belongs to Jesus "the only begotten Son of God." He's the Father of our Spirits, and yes He is the Father of our physical bodies--by creation, not biology. God is God and we are man. One species does not give birth to a different species. Really? It's always been understood that way by nearly every tradition with the Christian world.

Yes, Ray, I do. I sought God's direction as I went through the verses, and just looked at them in their context. Like me, no other Bible scholars outside of the LDS tradition (that I'm aware of) have taken those passages, and put them together to suggest that human spirits are existed eternally in premortality. Is it "at least possible" that Joseph Smith stumbled upon a hidden truth? "All things are possible." However, outside of an assurance about Joseph Smith and his revelations, the LDS interpretation does not seem plausible. Professor Robinson (BYU) is generally quite frank about admitting than many LDS distinctives cannot be strongly supported, if only relying on biblical texts. His normal recourse, when engaging evangelicals, is to counter that we cannot prove the LDS interpretation is impossible or clearly contradictory to the Holy Bible. So, as I suggested, if you presuppose Mormon doctrine, the passages could lend understanding to that interpretation. But, without the presupposition, they would not likely lead a nuetral reader conclude that humans have an eternal premortal existence.

Ray, if you've read me carefully, you understand that there definitely is an assurance that comes with salvation. BUT, that assurance is preceeded by a sense of conviction--guilt. Yeah, good old-fashioned guilt. We realize we are sinners, and we sense that God is real. We call out for mercy, relying on the shed blood of Christ Jesus, his Son. We say yes to God's offer of love, and then the ASSURANCE comes. Now that the Spirit of God resides with me, I read the Bible and know it's true. God reveals his truths to me as I read it. I discern truths unredeemed biblical scholars never will. But, we do not have to pray for an assurance every time we approach the Bible, or learn a new truths. The "yes" and "no" of the Spirit become a natural part of my on-going conversation with God. Some things we "tarry" or wait for--most things God reveals quite readily, with requiring a Q & A session. Ray, maybe you're a unique individual. But, I really doubt, for example, that most believers--whether LDS or not, needed to sit down before starting each new biblical book and praying, "Now God, can I trust this one? Is Genesis yours? Okay, Lord. I'm on Exodus now--what about it?" Once you'd received salvation, and embraced the overarching truth of Christ, the rest probably came quite easily. We have free will, or agency. BUT, the most powerful evangelistic tool available to us is the direct proclammation of the Word of God. That's why most evangelical 'witnessing' literature is packed with Bible verses. We're not in confusion, Ray. We're in love with each other. We fellowship with one another. Do we have perfect unity, even over the minute details. Well, I'd say we're at least as united as are the LDS posters at this site. Seriously, we see through the glass that is not yet clear. (1 Cor. 13). When Jesus comes, we shall see clearly, fully--and enjoy the natural unity you desire. Human organization can force compliance, but not heart unity. Jesus isn't back yet, okay? Even the New Testament church had disagreements. Paul and Barnabus parted ways, and there was quite a tiff over for a season. The Corinthians did not know they were suppose to expel the member who was having an illicit affair with his stepmother. I'm sorry church can't be neat and Leave it to Beaver like, for you Ray. Read the advice section of this board. You'll find "uneven" experiences some have had with their bishops. We're not yet perfected, but we're in Christ. We're redeemed. And we're headed in the right direction, praise God! The reason you have complete doctrinal unity is because when you aren't sure you refer me and others to lds.org for an official answer, and because you've put your trust in a singular organization. And yet, do you have to wear white shirts in Sacrament meetings or not? Depends on the bishop. There is no such thing as total unity, this side of glory.

Ray challenged me to look for myself to the official http://www.lds.org website for answers to my questions about the premortal existence of humanity as spirits. He claimed there were numerous biblical references to our existence before the creation. So, here’s my verse by look at what the website offered. The Scriptures LDS HomeScriptures Study Helps Topical Guide M Man, Antemortal Existence of Prev | Next TOPICAL GUIDE MAN, ANTEMORTAL EXISTENCE OF See also Council in Heaven; Foreordination; Man, a Spirit Child of Heavenly Father; Spirit Creation Num. 16: 22 (Num. 27: 16) God of the spirits of all flesh. Most Christians agree that we are body, soul and spirit. Some conflate soul/spirit. Our disagreement is over whether these spirits existed before the creation. The passage does not address this issue. Job 38: 7 all the sons of God shouted for joy. Most Christians agree that we are the sons and daughters of God. We disagree that we are essentially the same as Christ, the one and only begotten, God the Son. We are children by adoption and creation–not in our essence. Eccl. 12: 7 the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. We believe our souls to be both finite, in that they came into existence at conception, and immortal, because we face an everlasting destiny. Those who are blessed will return to the Father, those who are damned, will go to eternal punishment. Jer. 1: 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee. God is omniscient. He know all things, even before they are. There’s quite a theological discussion that is centuries old as to whether God’s foreknowledge means we are predestined to our everlasting fates. Zech. 12: 1 Lord . . . formeth the spirit of man within him. I would argue that if the Father formed our spirits, then they were created–they had a beginning. John 9: 2 who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind. I’m not sure what the reference has to do with premortal spirits. There was a common belief that children bore the punishment for their parents’ sins–Jesus refutes this–in this case saying the man was born this way so that God might be glorified. Acts 17: 28 poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Paul is addressing a group of intellectuals and explaining that just as they have known that we are the offspring (i.e. creation) of God, he is now going to tell them who that God is and how they can be reconciled to Him. That we are called offspring would not be meant to contradict John 3:16, in which Jesus is called the ONLY begotten of God. Rom. 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate. This is a favorite verse of Calvinists, who believe God pre-determined our fates, because of his sovereignty. Such a view would diminish any free agency or will we might have. Regardless, this verse does not mean that the Father had intimate relationship with us before creation, but rather that He knew we were coming and what we would become. Eph. 1: 4 chosen us in him before the foundation of the world. Once again, God’s foreknowledge of our existence does not mean that we had intimate relationship with him prior to creation. Heb. 12: 9 subjection unto the Father of spirits. God created us with spirits–so He surely is the Father of spirits. Jude 1: 6 angels which kept not their first estate. I believe this refers to Satan and a third of the angels who rebelled against God, thus leaving their domain or estate. I’m not sure how this relates to the premortal existence of HUMAN spirits. Rev. 12: 7 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. I’m not sure what relevence this passage has. Yes, angels did exist before human creation. That does not mean we do. Conclusion: If we presuppose the antemortal existence of human spirits, these verses could bolster that belief. However, if without that presupposition, these verses merely point to God’s foreknowledge of human existence, and perhaps even hint at predestination (though I’m not in that particular theological camp).

No, I believe he said he had rediscovered the Truth. John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.KJV

Jesus said, "I am the ... Truth."

Ben, humility is unnecessary when you're right! This should be an easy call. Piracy is both wrong and illegal. I do understand that it is okay to copy purchased media onto other formats for personal use (i.e. CDs - cassettes), but to give away, and certainly not to sell.

Quite frankly, we take the inspiration of the Bible for granted. The Word of God shall not return void. What we encourage "investigators" to do is respond to the sense of conviction the Holy Spirit is communicating to them, and to believe in Jesus and confess their sins. From the point of conversion, belief in the truth of the Bible comes easily, because the same Spirit that brought the conviction inspired the writings. Ray, what do you make of Traveler's emphasis on uniformity, conformity, and authority? He seemed to find this reliance on the sensations of assurance to be too individualistic.

Battle? What battle? Christos, you weren't feeling the ? Maybe we all need a group

Faith in dichotamies is a prerequisite of salvation. Light/darkness, True/False, Yes/No, Heaven/Hell, God/Satan, Salvation/Damnation, Good/Evil. It is only those deluded by the Cult of Tolerance who condemn dichotamies. It is they who must repent, so they may see the power of One vs. Another.

You'll have to explain yourself. My saying that God making a mortal being with a definite starting point into one that had no beginning is an absurdity. The verse in question: John 3:15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. KJV informs me that if I believe in Jesus I shall THEN have eternal life. Of course God can grant us life everlasting. The promise in John's gospel is quite different from saying that the Heavenly Father would paste onto our lives an eternal past. The issue of premortal existence is nowhere on John's radar screen. Besides, if it were, does this mean that only those who believe in Christ will GAIN a premortal eternal existence? Again, an absurdity.

See previous post for Traveler's insightful observations. His bottom-line: A kingdom, unlike a democracy, should be united, uniform, singularly organized, non-diverse, etc., according to The Traveler. Except they weren't and aren't. Look at the Book of Acts to see the struggles between Jewish and Gentile believers. Look at the diversity of problems seen between the church in Ephesus vs. Corinthians, or especially the seven churches of Asia Minor. We are united in our love for King Jesus, in our reliance on his Word, our proclammation of the faith to those who are lost, and in our love for one another. There is an excellent saying in this regard: Unity in essentials, Liberty in secondary matters, charity in all. So what are the essentials, and who gets to say? Here's a breakdown: 1. Roman Catholicism: The Church, relying equally upon Scriptures and Tradition, has authority to make these decisions. 2. Protestantism: There are varying church governance systems, but generally a Pastor and a group of congregation leaders (deacons, elders, board members) will make local decisions, with denominational offices offering varying degrees of consulation or leadership. Regardless of the structure, all would claim to rely on the Scriptures for their decisions. 3. LDS: The Church, led by the Living Prophet and his Apostles, hold the authority, and rely on direct revelation, previous revelations given to modern prophets, and on the Standard Works. BTW, my discussion about the wooing of the Holy Spirit was in response to Ray's queries about God revealing himself to individuals. Traveler, isn't that what you believe happens when an investigator prays as to whether the BoM is true, etc.?

If a being has always been, and had no start, it wasn't created. God might transform the being, but He would not be creating it. On the other hand, if we do have beginnings, then I suppose instead of saying we are eternal, we might become eternal. Or, you could just say I will be living forever and ever.

RAY: #1: There are several “biblical references” which refer to our premortal existence, and you can find those for yourself or with our [LDS] Topical Guide. PC: I did my best, but this is all I found: http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=premortal Keep in mind, that I intentionally used the term "biblical references" to refer to the Old and New Testaments. It's likely that premortal human existence as spirits is one of those LDS distinctives that is only found in the Triad. #2: We [LDS] do not believe and never have claimed to have been created as begotten children of God in the flesh, if you’re referring to us as children of God that He created by creating our flesh and blood. And yet, the teaching seems to be that we shall become essentially like Christ, and that there is a physical essence of the Heavenly Father that is within us. Do correct me if I've misunderstood. Also, keep in mind that I've probably conflated my conversations with you, Apostle Knight and Traveler--and perhaps am considering something one of them said. #3: We [LDS] do claim to have been created by God as children of God as spirits… and there are also some “biblical references” which can help you to see this point. I would encourage you to share any Old or New Testament references you have to the premortal existence of humans in any form. #4: We [LDS] can see what you do not believe, as we [LDS] share our beliefs, but it should not be considered a “nonsense” question to question your own ideas… because by asking you those questions we’re hoping to help you receive an answer … which is not a nonsense purpose if we can help you achieve that goal. A "nonsense question" is one that is logically impossible. I never impugne questioning itself. My point was that believing we can become as God is an absurdity within non-LDS Christian theology. In order for such a belief to work one also needs the belief in an evolving God, and in the premortal eternal existence of humans as spirits. BTW, how is it that God can create something that has always been? Might it not be more appropriate to say that God transforms, changes, improves, etc.? #5: Our “LDS position” doesn’t "require" that humans have an eternal premortal existence, our “LDS position” is simply our [LDS] belief that the scriptures reveal knowledge from God on this issue... through personal revelations which has been given to us which first came to some other prophets of God. If non-LDS are correct that human existence begins at conception, then to say we can become eternal gods would require that the Heavenly Father "paste" an eternal past upon us. It would be an absurdity. My sense is there are several distinctives like this--beliefs that only work well in tandem. Thus, the investigator is called upon to pray and receive assurance. Once Joseph Smith is determined to be a Prophet, once the BoM is determined to be true, then the other distinctives just start to fall in line. Thus, my suggestion that theologically, the LDS system of beliefs is most easily embraced as a package. #6: We [LDS] do not believe and never have stated our Heavenly Father is an evolving God, like us… because He’s already achieved His state of perfection that is known as God by Man. If God was once a man (or like a man), and now is more than that, then He changed--He evolved. Are you saying that He stopped growing, and that we'll catch up to Him? #7: Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit so they could become more like God than they were… and they never could have become more like God without a knowledge of good and evil. It was not a good thing they did, Ray. They sinned. God was disappointed, and issued punishment. He did so because of their rebellion. They tried to become like God, IMHO, because then they would not need God. #8: When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit they actually did become more like God, so the lie that Satan told them was NOT in saying they would become more like God, but in saying they wouldn’t die… and yes there are some scriptures to show that they became more like God after eating that fruit. Yes, they became more like God the same way crack cocaine makes you feel better. The after effects were devestating. They did not gain a more equal footing with God. Rather, they broke the beautiful, innocent, and full relationship they had. They broke trust and introduced rebellion and, yes, disobedience into the spiritual equation. #9: We [LDS] don’t claim that we don’t need God even though we are now more like Him, and we also don't believe we will ever come to the point where we won't need Him, or love Him, any more. If you are becoming gods and more godlike, then, if the Father is no longer changing, would you not "catch up" with Him? #10: When Adam and Eve “rebelled” they had already received their independence from God, and there is nothing at all that is “bad” or “wrong’ with being independent persons… but with our independence it is best to follow God by choosing to become more like God, otherwise we won’t achieve our state of perfection by becoming like those who are God. Ray, when Adam & Eve rebelled, they were seeking to become like God so they would not need Him anymore. That's independence--much akin to teenage rebellion at its worst. There's little good to say about those who would dishonor their Father so. You seem to be saying that Adam & Eve's disobedience was a good thing. #12: We are already of the same essence as God because we are literally God’s children, and the essence of "us" is also eternal, but we will only live as God now lives by choosing to follow our Savior. #13: Through the atonement of Jesus Christ we can become co-equal partners and joint-heirs with God through Jesus Christ… not His servants, not His subjects, but joint-heirs of all He has when we have become exactly like Him. These are LDS distinctives that can only be found in the Triad. Or in other words, prisonchaplain, I’m simply trying to tell you that you should seek the truth from God, and I’m NOT telling you to believe anyone other than God as they tell you what they think or believe … although I do believe it might do some good for you to know what we [LDS] truly believe, and how we interpret the scriptures, so you can then commune with God about what we believe and listen to what He will tell you. I don't claim to be an expert on LDS beliefs, but my understanding is certainly superior to what it was last October, when I first began treading this site. :) #17: Jesus is uniquely the only one of the children of our Father who was created by our Father in the flesh, with no mortal Father like ours, but all of us who were created as male children of our Father were spiritually created as sons by our Father… and daughters are like their Mother. This is perhaps the most serious and wide area of divide between LDS and non-LDS. Non-LDS believe Jesus to be God the Son, co-eternal and co-equal with with the Father. It is not appropriate, and indeed may be blasphemous, in our view, to describe Jesus as a created being. Do you see the irony here? We non-LDS say, "Lower your view of humanity. We are the creation of God, not the stuff from out of God." Then we say, "Raise your view of the Christ. He is the stuff of God, and has always been so." #18: All of us, all of Man, were and are co-eternal with God as intelligence … but we will only develop to be co-equal with God if we accept ALL intelligence through the gospel. I stumbled upon this belief about a month ago and was truly shocked. I had not known that LDS believe that humanity is eternal. You might want to relabel your headings in Genesis 1 as "The Transformation" rather than "The Creation." Ray, I know you grew up in the CoC--how did this hit you when you first heard it? Were you surprised, or had you come to the place of believing the other revelations, so this must be true too? #21: All offspring created by any creator are inherently or "essentially” like their creator, although not immediately after they are first created because they have not grown up yet… but all offspring can become just like their creator by fulfilling their full measure of creation... or by becoming as perfect as their creator. This just isn't so. Children are essentially what their parents are, but not creation. Creation is what the Maker makes them to be. "Offspring" is not equal to "Creation." Offspring are the result of opposite genders of the same species coupling. Creation is something we make. And btw, I understand how you can get “lost” by knowing a creator can create something that is NOT like the creator, but in this regard our Creator did Create us in a different sense than His other creations… and He can personally assure you of that just as He has already assured us that He did. You are describing a God who gives birth, not one who makes. The Genesis account is one of making, not giving birth. The language of the creation accounts in Genesis 1-2 does not seem to lend itself to your interpretation. For instance, to put this in more “human” terms for you, although you as a parent can create a child as well as a work of art, like a fly on a fishing line, your most glorious creation is your offspring, regardless of any of your other creations. No, this is wordplay. We don't create children, we give birth to them, and then train them up in the way they should go. Tommy, if you know anything about God who can help to teach you ALL truth, you should also know that there is somebody called Satan, whose work is to deceive and lure us away from the truth by trying to spread false doctrine… and the reason any of us have a hard time knowing the truth is because of the influence of Satan who works against us, by working both directly and indirectly in all of our lives to keep us from knowing the truth. Ray, I know what you meant. However, in the context of our conversation it wouldn't be hard for people to believe you were implying that I was influenced and influencing on behalf of Satan. Okay now? That’s all I meant. To know the truth we must learn from God, because there are many people who have been deceived by Satan and the precepts of men he has influenced… and I’m not saying that the deceived persons are bad, or evil, but that is the reason they don’t know the truth. Ray, if you are implying that I am deceived by Satan, I'd merely suggest to you that such observations do little to enhance interfaith dialogues. It's understood that we don't agree, that we both believe that we are right and the other views are in error, and we may have personal speculations as to why to other is wrong and won't see the truth--but to tell someone they are directed by the Enemy is probably not the most fruitful approach to sharing your faith (unless you truly believe the Holy Spirit led you to say such a thing ). You really don't need to learn any more from me. :)

We continue to share and learn. At some point in our lives you or I will get it. The constant knocking of the Holy Spirit will finally be heard. Or...one of us will harden his heart, and receive his due on that great and terrible day. Then either I will be consigned to the Terrestial Kingdom, or you will have to answer for your many errors. I'm responsible for what I do with the message, not how others respond. God works with me, allowing me to be an agent of his truth and the wooing of his Spirit. My work is to present and explain. It's the Holy Spirit's work to convict, and the respondent's place to welcome or reject or ponder. That's why Christian believers need to get beyond saying, "Why get so uptight about a few disagreements on doctrine. There's no doctrine test for getting into heaven." I want to know God, his Word, and to proclaim his truths fully, passionately, and accurately. Which is why Profs. Robinson and Blomberg (BYU & Denver Seminary, respectively) agree that LDS and evangelicals will not be able to share communion, or teaching platforms, and that our missionaries/evangelists/members will continue to proslytize one another. Your repeated question, "What now?" was responded to by them with: let us raise the level of our dialogue, and speak to one another with respect and intelligence, and avoid the hostility and caracatures that marked so many past exchanges. I say AMEN to that. I suppose one of us will let the other know when we hear what HE's been shouting to us all along.

Can God make a rock so big He can't lift it. An absurdity. Can God transform a finite, limited, created being into a co-eternal, co-equal partner with Him? An absurdity. In Genesis humanity is created by God. Humans reproduce through 'coupling' with the opposite gender, same species. Do we really need Scripture (beyond Gen. 1-2) to explain this??? The question itself is strange. What in all creation were frogs or dogs most created to be like? Yes, we are created with godlike characteristics, and his image is within us. That does not mean that we are essentially God. In the context of the passage, I took it to me, "Yes, I really expect you do obey all this--even to love your enemies." There is nothing in the context of Matthew 5--speaking to how Jesus wants us to behave that would suggest He suddenly stops his flow of thought and so, "Oh, by the way, I want you to become God." You're obviously going somewhere with the question, but you'll have to dig up some reputable Jewish scholars that suggest it was possible for humans to become God, before I could even think about gong there with you. We won't inherit his essence, if that's the question. Except that Jesus was and is God the Son. And, we are not. We are his created children. In our essence.

Clarity is a beautiful thing. If we have truly come to the place where we understand correctly what each other believes, we have accomplished something wonderful. We do not embrace outlandish caractures of each other. Instead, we know each other, respect each others spiritual journey, and now can allow the Holy Spirit to do his convincing as we occasionally continue to dialogue. As the elder missionary in God's Army said: we don't do the converting. That's the Holy Spirit's work. Yeah, interfaith dialogue is so messy, slow, and frustrating. Far easier to draw lines in the sand, declare sides, and begin firing.

1st. I'm not so sure that saying God does not refer to us as creation is true or relevent. Yes, we were clearly created by Him, on the 6th Day. There is no biblical reference to premortal human existence. So, we are not the begotten children--we are the created children of God. Essential to this discussion are two understandings of the non-LDS Christian belief system: 1. Humans have no premortal existence. 2. God is unchanging, and was never a man or like a man--He was and is and is to come--the same yesterday, today, and forever. That said, it becomes one of those nonsense questions to ask, "Can the eternal God take a created, limited being and turn it into an eternal, unlimited one? I suppose He could create an eternal past and paste it to the created being, but we quickly degenerate into absurdities. The LDS position is a package deal--it requires that humans have an eternal premortal existence. Furthermore, it makes much more sense IF the Heavenly Father is an evolving God. Yes, but why did they take the fruit? My post addressed that question, not the very limited "what physical act did they commit?" Are you serious? You don't usually play word games, so perhaps you truly misunderstood me. My meaning was pretty clear though. Satan LIED to Adam & Eve--convincing them that if they took the fruit they would become like God. It's not a far leap of understanding that if you're like God you no longer need Him. Thus, God's punishments and anger become understandable. Adam & Eve were not hungry, nor merely curious. They rebelled--they attempted to become independent from God. In our exalted states we shall become godlike, but never of the same essence as the one true, eternal, living God. We are his creation, his subjects, not his co-equal partners. We do indeed become greater than the angels. It is not necessary for us to become co-equal partners with God to achieve that. We are his highest creation--higher than the angels. Again, understanding that non-LDS believers do not accept the premortal existence of humans, and also that we believe God to be a unique, uncreated, unchanging, and alone in his eternal existence, it quickly becomes clear that to ask why God cannot transform creation into eternal God raises questions that require absurdities. Yes, but we call this the incarnation. Man never became God. Rather, God the Son willingly became "a little lower than the angels" to fulfill the plan of redemption. Jesus is uniquely God the Son, co-eternal and co-equal with the Father. We shall never become what He is and has always, in essence been. Keep in mind, too, that non-LDS believer see the Father and Son being essentially the same, whereas we, his creation, are not. Creation never becomes essentially the Creator.

<div class='quotemain'> Amen?

I think that the person who said it originally (last name Snow, I believe) said it more directly: As man is, God once was. As God is, man can become." What you seem to be offering, is that God was once LIKE man, and man can become LIKE God. Correct? If so, I simply tell you that all other Christians believe God's nature is unchanging--that he was never 'like man.' Furthermore, while we shall be exalted, and become, perhaps, 'godlike,' we shall never be = in essence with the Father or the Son.

He did, and we do (in his name). But, he did so by the power of the Spirit that was in him. The beauty of this truth is that, just as Jesus said, we shall do what he did and even more. Hallelujah! (Sorry, you got the Pentecostal in me going, here!)

Often the hearing, talking, or seeing can lead us to the place of asking God for that assurance. Ultimately, you are right--God will reveal himself to whoever seeks him with a sincere heart. Sometimes I sense that you try to hurry people along, rather than allow them to approach God as He prepares them to. It seems to me that the Old Testament prophets were judged by what they said, not some spiritual enlightment from God. If there words were true, they could be accepted. If not, they could be executed. There wasn't much that was mystical about it. Following God himself could involve such supernatural experiences--but not the prophets. To obey them was to obey God--if they spoke His words. I'm in this place to learn and share. I've done both, and have assurance that God is pleased. Sorry to cut you off...but I know why I am here. See my response to #2. I have an assurance from God that He is pleased with my learning and sharing here. So, try to avoid the occasional dirt and rocks that shoot out as my wheels keep spinning. To summarize what you've said in various posts: Since the Heavenly Father is not present in the lower kingdoms, the Terrestial and Telestial heavens could be considered hell (not biblically, but by comparison, perhaps). Anyone who has heard the LDS gospel and not embraced it, will have no further opportunities. In a sense, they really do face "Heaven (Celestial), or hell (paradise minus the Father)." Many evangelicals would propose an even more stark destination to you. I've discusses the whole issue of salvation and doctrine with SNOW quite a bit. Ultimately, and I suppose we'd agree on this, God-seekers would do well to embrace the truth of God, in it's most accurate and purest form, from those sources that most directly and rightly reflect God's words for us. We have hope for one another, and trust one anothers integrity, so we meet at places like this and dialogue. The Holy Spirit will rightly lead those with open hearts, while others will fall by the wayside or dig their heels in. And I suppose I could just tell you to phone home. We both know how to find live representatives of each other's faith groups, Ray--and God will show us if/when we need to contact them. You be blessed, Ray! :)

That’s a misinterpretation of scripture, because He was still our God on Earth. And He still had every one of His “powers” though He appeared in form as Man. There is a particular early church heresy--Docetism I believe--that insisted Jesus did not really suffer on earth, but only appeared to do so. John declared such a teaching damnable. He said that when you test the spirits, you can know if they are true if they teach that Jesus really came in the flesh. When you say Jesus remained God, with all his powers, I beg to differ. Yes, the Spirit was in him. Yes, he could not give up what he was. But, he did give up his powers. He relied on prayers to the Father, on the power of the Spirit, etc. during his sojourn on earth.

If your God was once a man and has evolved, and if his essence is on a level shared by many, then this is a lesser God than the one most Christians envision: unique, all-knowling, all-powerful, infinite, without beginning or end, and unchanging. So, it's true you cannot truly diminish God, but your definitions can make him appear to be less than what He is.

All right, dogs were not the best example. Since we are creation, it would have been better to speak of us as masterpieces, opuses, or simply greatest creation. God's heart, passion, love, and character, and yes 'breath of life' is in us. We swell with righteous pride when we write a successful book, paint a poignant painting, take a life-capturing picture, sing an audience to tears, etc. Magnify that sense of accomplishment infinitely, and you understand the love of the Heavenly Father for us, His creation. At its worst, we see in the efforts of humanity to become GOD as the very sin Satan tempted Adam & Eve with--take the fruit and you'll be just like GOD, knowing good from evil. Our human mother and father were not cast out of the garden for curiosity, but for rebellion. They understood that if they became LIKE God, then they would no longer NEED God. It's not negative thinking, or an inferiority complex on the part of Christians, when we see God is God, and we are his highest creation. It was so in the beginning, and it will always be so. Our goal is not an = partnership, but reconciliation with the Master. I understand the spirit, or thinking, behind "humans as gods" theology. Even some of our prosperity preachers have wandered into this spiritual field. There are strains of many religions that approach this idea. I understand it, but find it dangerous. Yes, I cast my lot with Jesus! I place all my eggs in his basket--my very life for that matter. If need be, I'd join the host of martyrs throughout the ages. And thus, I will inherit a kingdom with him. BUT, I shall never literally be him--he is the ONLY begotten Son of God. The mormon.org website says that LDS worship Jesus. Do you really believe that will ever stop? IF you go beyond saying you'll inherit WITH Him, and say you will inherit AS Him...like I said before, I fear we're back in the garden staring at the forbidden fruit.