TruthSeekerToo

So, granting eternal life to all his children is unjust and unmerciful. BTW, I was assuming that our agency remained intact in that scenario. Killing babies because their parents are pagan is...... Killing a man because he touched the ark is..... Taking away their mortality, agency and ability to repent (in the case of the man). so that should likewise be unjust and unmerciful. Therefore, it can't be something God would do.

True. But it would be merciful. Is there any action he could take that would be both unjust and unmerciful?

Could you give an example of what would be an unfair act? What would God have to do to be unjust?

Forgiven! (hugs) I wasn't trying to post a pattern for everyone to follow. Just showing that there is no hard, fast "rule."

Yikes! I shouldn't have used that example. Nobody in front of the camera that I know. I'll use a different example. We have a beer company near us. We have known several (more than 3) members who have worked there without it ever being an issue. I think that many lines of work can present us with choices like these. I think that is when we just need to pray about it and follow the Spirit. I also don't think you can judge a book by its cover.

I don't know how racey and explicit her books are so I can't say anything about her specific situation. Just to say that there are no worthiness rules for going to church. I know several temple attending LDS women who read romance novels. ETA: We also have many temple attending members in the film industry who have done rated "R" movies. I don't see this being different (unless her books are p0rnographic).

Dang, I was really just trying to find out if you are a judge....I've often wondered. :) JK

That doesn't really answer the questions I posed, though. I agree with that scripture. That scripture doesn't say anything about God being unjust. It says the opposite. It doesn't explain why a son of perdition is allowed to live and some guy who touched the ark was struck dead. Why was mercy shown to a son of perdition? Why didn't the ark toucher get an opportunity to repent? In your mind, you believe that murder is just in some cases. I just don't ever think that it is. I also don't think God is able to break his own commandments or he will cease to be God. If God murders innocent children then he would cease to be God. Are you a judge? Would you consider it just to sentence a 2 year old child to death because their parents are pagan? All are not lost. The scriptures tell us that there are those who are unaccountable. That is the very definition of "innocent." Killing innocent people is the very definition of "murder." God has commanded "Thou shalt not murder." He cannot lie and still be God. He cannot murder and still be God. I also wonder if someone could explain to me how much agency God allows us? What is the final straw that will cause him to kill us? I want to know what commandments are punishable by physical death met out by God. God does not believe in "pre-emptive strikes." We can know for certain the heart of an innocent child. It is pure and fully covered by the mercy of God. We can know for certain the heart of a son of perdition. It is hard and rebellious.

Hasn't the whole church been under condemnation for not taking the BoM seriously? D&C 84:55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. 56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written— President Benson indicated that the church was still under condemnation: "We have made some wonderful strides in the past. We will be lengthening our stride in the future. To do so, we must first cleanse the inner vessel by awaking and arising, being morally clean, using the Book of Mormon in a manner so that God will lift the condemnation, and finally conquering pride by humbling ourselves." Cleansing the Inner Vessel If anyone is aware of the condemnation being lifted, I'd love a link.

What is God's justice during our earthly probation? I think that is where people get confused. A lot of Bible stories we have seem to be in conflict with justice and especially mercy. I am only talking about things that have been attributed to God in the scriptures-not the unfairness we see in the world. Is it equatable and just for God to command the children of Isreal (who struggled with idolatry) to slaughter an entire city of people accused of idolatry-including innocent children and animals? If so, how? And why would it be okay to wipe out one population for idolatry and not the other? Is it just for God to preserve the murderer Cain and strike the guy dead who tried to steady the ark of the covenant? If so, how? Is the death penalty JUST for adultery and fornication like it says in the law of Moses? If so, why wasn't Judah struck dead for sleeping with his daughter-in-law (he thought she was just a prostitute). Her husband was apparantly naughty enough to be struck dead by God and the brother was struck dead for not "raising up seed to his brother." Why weren't Hitler and some of these mass murderers and tyrants struck dead? Justice doesn't mean different penalties and rewards for the same works. That is unjust. At the judgement bar will God show favortism? Will some murderers be treated better than some who tried to "steady the ark?"

Thanks Justice. Something you said in another thread helped crystalize my understanding about this marvelous thing we call salvation. :)

I truly hope that she is healthy and that pic is altered. Speaking as one thin woman to another...

That is what is amazing about those passages in Alma. I love them, thanks for posting them Justice. It shows us that justice must be met and God is bound to that law. So, in his love he sent his Son to pay the price of justice that mercy may be extended to all who believe. Mercy claims the penitent. Mercy is through the Atonement. Those who are truly saved will not work evil. They will "go and sin no more." They become a new creature and have no more disposition to do evil. Just think of Alma the Younger. Of course we know that the flesh is weak even when the spirit is willing. We all continue to work towards perfect love the rest of our lives. All the "works" that save are works of God or the inner man. They are faith and love, charity. I love the beatitude of Blessed are the merciful for they will obtain mercy. That is so simple and profound! If we extend mercy to others, God will extend his mercy to us. Alma 7:14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness. ..... 24 And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works. Someone once pointed out that justice is fairness and equity. I believe that. I look forward to justice, knowing I am claimed by mercy. I know that God is love and wouldn't do anything unfair or unloving or unjust.

If reading it in a linear fashion bogs you down you can study it by theme or topic. That's my favorite way. The BoM clearly puts forth who will take part in the first resurrection. (Mosiah 15:21-25) It clearly puts forth the pure doctrine of Christ. (2 Nephi 31) Describes a Zion people. (4 Nephi 1) Lots of great stuff!

I think it is the simplicity of Mercy that is so hard for us to understand. It is so hard to give up control to God. What works did the woman taken in adultery do to be forgiveness when Jesus pronounced her forgiven? What works did the thief nailed to the cross beside him do to earn the promise of paradise from Jesus? The woman, a sinner, who bathed his feet in tears...what were her works? The little children and unaccounntable people...they are required nothing for their salvation. They will come forth in the morning of the first resurrection. Alma the Younger is a fantastic example of how salvation is wrought. He was going about to destroy the church of God! He is visited by an angel while he engaged in his wicked design. Then struck dumb. This is what he tells the congregation: Mosiah 27:24 For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lordl behold I am born of the Spirit. It was through his repentance that he was redeemed. He became a new creature and son of Christ. He was redeemed from that very hour. Then he went about showing forth the fruit of God's saving grace. Alma 34: 15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance. .... 31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you. I love those scriptures. I love how it explains that when we soften our hearts and repent we are immediately redeemed. The gift is given and ready for us to accept. Salvation can happen in a day. All who repent lay claim to the mercy of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The simplicity is perfectly illistrated in the story of Moses and the children of Isreal. Numbers 21:9 tells us that Moses made a serpent and set it upon a staff. All those who were bitten by the fiery serpent looked at the serpent of brass and live. This is a pointer to Christ. We look to him and live. It really is that simple. However, it is not an easy thing for the natural man to do.

I think it is great, so far. I got my copy on Amazon for a great deal. It is called The Book of Mormon: The Earliest Text. It was about $23.xx and I bought some $2 tape to get free shipping. Yay! The front explains all about his method. I really like being able to see the original for some of the things that have changed. It flows a bit more the way it was written. There aren't any of our cross-references and such. Makes a nice reference for scripture study. If you want to read the BoM for the storyline this is a great way since there is nothing else on the page to distract you. I felt like I was peeking inside the process of how the BoM evolved in print. It won't replace my regular ol' BoM...more of a supplement. I think it is of more interest to historians and scholars.

Oh, I have one! Okay, the plan of salvation is like going to the theater. The price of a ticket for children under 8 is FREE. It is covered by the theater owner. The price of a ticket for everyone else is repentance, baptism, etc......

Pam linked to this meaty article in another thread. It has so much in it that I was hoping to discuss it here, seperately. Salvation of Little Children Anyway, there are a couple things that really brought up questions for me and how I understand the plan of salvation. 1) Salvation and exaltation are the same thing *It seems like I have heard some members say they are not the same. I actually feel that they are the same and think most other Christians view it that way too. I'm open to hearing what you guys think about this. He doesn't state which 3 scriptures are the exception---any ideas? 2) The deaths of children before they reach accountability are controlled by God. *I actually was aware of this idea and the idea that unaccountable people were also planned to be that way in mortality. *Now, could someone explain how this is different than predestination? If God controls which spirits are unaccountable then they are predestined to eternal life and glory. I'm not saying I disagree. It is a very comforting doctrine. I just feel like God allows agency to take its course and that can result in untimely death-also I think he allows nature to take its course. So, he put the plan in motion and things happen because of our agency, nature, the agency of others, etc. He is in control in that he created the plan and set it in motion. Not in making every thing that happens in our life happen. Does that sound right? I'd love to hear any of your thoughts on the article. :)

And perhaps if your heart is telling you to kill someone you are listening to something other than your heart. If it is the still small voice asking you to kill, what makes you 110% sure that it is a direct command from God? Many people claim that a voice of God has told them to kill. How do you know they didn't? If the still small voice whispers anything contrary to Christ's teachings what are we to think? How can we even trust an "angel of light" if it is directing us to do something contrary to the Light of Christ? Especially if devils can disguise themselves as an "angel of light." Just wondering. Pam thanks for all the links to little children stuff. There are lots of interesting nuggets in the BRM article. I think it is safe to say that "growing in stature" after you are a resurrected being is totally different than the mortal aging process. There are people who will live their mortal lives during th M. which is different from resurrected beings..... Exactly! So, which is more difficult to imagine? The truth is there are more options than that. But, I find the least likely option to be that a kind, loving, just and merciful God commands genocide. Currently in this lifelong process. It's quiet a ride, yes?

No. It doesn't. Vicarious work is a BACK UP plan. Children and unaccountable people do not require a back up plan--->they've got Jesus. Jesus fulfilled all righteousness by being baptised because it was a requirement of the LAW because he was accountable. It is not a requirement of the law for unaccountable people. I believe we have already proved that it is not a requirement of the law for unaccountables to be baptized. Please provide me with a reference that clearly states those who are unacountable will receive temple ordinances during the M. Does a child have "perfect faith?" Are we told to "become like children?" Hmmm. Were the parables of Christ false? You and I have different definitions of false, which is okay. I just wanted to point it out that someone could come to a different conclusion. You have told me the surface truths that can be derived from God commanded genocide. I also like the idea that God knows all that can be--he knows what we would do in any given situation---all possibilities are before him. I do NOT like the idea that God commands men to slaughter innocent babies. Obviously.

puf, you are misunderstanding the doctrine of baptism. Please review this article by Boyd Packer on the topic. He calls the baptism of unaccountable people false doctrine. The unaccountable have NO need of baptism. Period. They have no need of temple ordinances except sealing to parents according to our doctrine. From the article (for those who hate clicking): How can a baptism be performed AFTER the resurrection? Millenium-->First Resurrection-Second Resurrection-->Judgement "We will be resurrected to the degree of glory consistent with our faithfulness (see 1 Corinthians 15:40–42 ; D&C 88:22–31 ; 76:96–98 )." HERE Yes, it does come back to the purpose of this thread. I agree we can safely discard the third option! The mental gymnastics required to come to the conclusion of #2 keep me from choosing that option. Might I supply a fourth and fifth option? #4 The scriptures are accounts of mens dealings with God-from the man's POV. They contain spiritual truths that don't require us to believe God commands genocide, slavery, etc. #5 These bothersome stories are symbolic and not to be taken literally. They teach us spiritual truths that transcend the literal interpretation. And a truth that goes along with this...We learn in 2 Nephi that there is opposition in all things.

Thank you for answering. :) So, if the still small voice told you to kill someone(s) would you believe it was from God or the devil? I, personally, would not think it was from God. puf and I say "yes" God obeys his Celestial Laws. We also agree humans are not clear on what those are. We can probably all agree they are perfectly just and merciful.

So God grades on a bell curve? Being the Lord's chosen does not imply being better than others. It actually can be argued that the chosen have MORE required of them. In the New Testament Jesus tells the people that the law of Moses was given because of the HARDNESS of their hearts. I'm not sure if these are people we should emulate or assume that they had a full understanding of God's desire. The Atonement covers them. This is why we don't believe in original sin and that children are Unaccountable/sinless. IF unaccountables are judged it is on Chirst's merits, mercy and grace. Do you think unaccountable means something different than NOT accountable? Do yo think innocent, whole and without sin mean something different than their definitions? This is false doctrine. :) We do not believe that the unaccountable need baptism, endowment or marriage sealing to be saved or exalted. You will have to come up with proof of this as it is brand new to me. I have a sister who is severly disabled. I promise you that she is guaranteed to enherit the highest degree of the CK according to church doctrine. I have done lots and lots of temple work for ancestors. I promise that the only thing the do with children under 8 is seal them to their parents (unless someone submits them as over 8 or undetermined). That is fine. I think someone earlier said that it wouldn't be unjust for God to have innocent babies killed because he sent them there knowing that it would happen and thus chose those spirits for that purpose. That is why I argued that it was predestination. Let's say that God didn't know that those spirits were going to to be in that situation. Is it just for God to command the killing of innocents who have no sin and cannot atone for the sins of others? Is it just for him to do a pre-emptive strike if he doesn't *know* that they will "taint" the children of Isreal?

WOW! I didn't expect such a thoughtful reply. I won't tell your boss. I added a couple bolded thoughts to your original cuz it was easier that way. Did you have time to read the scriptures on little children? It's ok if not, just wondering if they helped mold this reply. I kinda like the idea that these children are "adopted" to righteous families to be "raised to full stature." It's not doctrinal, but it seems comforting and harmless. Either way they will be One with the Father, that is the cool part. Right. How bout: God sends baby 1 to Canaan. God is omniscient and knew this spirit would be back before 8. This was all part of the plan God commands Isreal to commit genocide against Canaan Baby 1 is killed being in a state of innocence and returns to Father Salvation in the CK for baby 1 Baby 1 was predestined for salvation/CK It may not be predestination for the wicked adults but it most certainly is for all the innocent humans. Anyone who is guaranteed the CK would be predestined if you believe that God ordered the genocide and put those specific spirits there for it. Yup, but humans don't agree on what constitutes Celestial Law.

Dunno. I imagine there are lots of degrees of possibility in between God planning and controling everything and chaos.