Kenny

So when someone replies it goes to everybody in the thread?

While what you are saying is very interesting and right up my street I think you are replying to the wrong person here.

Think this was intended for lovely12.

Whenever race or sexual orientations issues are raised I listen intently for someone to bring into the discussion what it is that offends God with regards to these issues. Everybody on Earth is a child of God regardless of race, colour of skin or sexual orientation and everybody who accepts Jesus as the Christ and obey His commandments are subject to the mercy of God. I think in the history of mankind there has never been a time when there is so much free agency we can just about do whatever we want that is legal. God has set the minimum standard of how we should live like sex only within the bounds of lawful marriage. This was further clarified by a prophet of God to be between a man and a woman. This does not mean that being of homosexual persuasion automatically puts those under the condemnation of God any more than those that are termed heterosexual who practice outside these bounds. What puts us under the condemnations of God is not living in accordance with his commandments. The Lord knew we would fall short thus a need for a Saviour. Jesus took upon him all of mans sins but we have to forsake them through repentance if we hope to be saved by the atoning sacrifice. This includes judging our fellowman because the colour of their skin or sexual preference. If however one chooses to go against the bounds the Lord has set willingly and continues to do so unrepentant then the Lord will judge that person justly and in His own time.

You are of cause right in what you say but the issue was not whether the mark of Cain was black skin but rather the few who use these difference to persecute those that have and that they that do should read the warning the Lord gave.

You know Lovely12 the reason I have responded to your concerns is because if you look at what you are saying you are in fact answering your own questions. If a man can react so childishly to something as earthly as a job then where was that man's testimony certainly not in Jesus Christ? You feel things in a way only people who care feel but that can also be a weakness and Satan knows our weaknesses and will try to exploit them, why? Because God gives us weaknesses to help us become more humble, because when we are more humble what happens? We present ourselves ready for the nurturing of God. Such nurturing brings us closer to God and out of the influence of Satan. When you are closer to God do you feel happier? This happiness is where the seeds of Joy resides the very thing that our Heavenly parents had in abundance and what we sort along with getting flesh and bones. Let me use an example of something that caused great distress in the early members of the church and one that almost saw Joseph Smith destroyed. Polygamy!! Joseph struggled with its concept so much that God decreed He would destroy him if he did not comply. Later polygamy was the very thing that almost saw the church seized by the US government. Yet in both cases the reason was the disobeying of Gods commands. So there are reasons God does what he does in the time he does it for reason only He knows. From my understanding Polygamy was introduced as part of the restoration of the Gospel. God knows the end from the beginning and could see that some time in the future US law would outlaw it. We have the Article’s of Faith which distinctly states in article 12 that we will obey the law of the land. 12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honouring, and sustaining the law. Yet it took the threat of all the churches assets being ceased before the leaders of the church saw that God whom instigated it had already spoken to have it ended. Men think because they are learned they are wise, they also put their own abilities above that of Gods. We are going to be amazed when the veil is lifted; we will see clearly the Lords hand in everything and that without His input nothing would have been achieved. Just take the advances man made between His ministry and the restoration of His gospel to what has happened since in a tenth of the time. You and I and all the human family have one thing in common, the same heavily parents, and that makes you and me sister and brother literally. We lived with parents that loved us and nurtured us, parents that were balanced and as such raised balance children, you feel that don’t you, through the veil, everybody does, some embrace it, some reject it be it is there none-the-less. Some of our siblings lose their way in this life, some crucified God himself, but that same God tells us we must forgive all. There is nothing any of us can do about the past except stop living there. No human being is going to makes us feel the way Christ will make us feel about ourselves. hope you find some comfort in my words they are said a lot softer then they might seem in type.

Yes my appoligies you are right got carried away in the moment and missed the cross reference and made the common mistake.Do not confuse Enoch of Cain’s lineage and the city of his name with the Enoch of Seth’s lineage and the city (Zion) of his name. (See Moses 6: 21 — 7: 69.). 21 And Jared lived one hundred and sixty-two years, and begat Enoch; and Jared lived, after he begat Enoch, eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters. And Jared taught Enoch in all the ways of God. The sentiment is the same though in that it is man who see the linerage of Cain in lesser terms than does our Father in Heaven.

The Lord through the scriptures and modern revelation has given us all the answers we need but too many people focus or are stuck on one aspect of something that happened or was said and this is where they live. As every day goes by then weeks, years even decades leaves us closer to the end of our probation and the end of the opportunity to progress further under our own free agency. There are many hang ups in my life some justifiable for me to withdraw from the membership of the only church on Earth that is the true church on of Jesus Christ but what do I gain, who pays? People are just to grown up in my experience when in reality they are little children in the intelligence stakes when comparing such to Gods. There are things we don’t understand we could never learn everything in our short time here but the truth I hold on to is that of knowing that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and was the Lord’s instrument in restoring His Gospel. In the great council two good plans were presented well to us and the majority of the human family would have been floaters, the others were firmly rooted in one camp or the other and immovable. Father knew there could only be one way but it was important to us and our free agency that we came to that conclusion without being compelled. Satan has no more influence over us then we are willing to give him, he did have the power but this was curtailed by God to be no more harmful than bruising our heal. Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters before Cain and Able came along and Cain became the first to not only take human life but to put his own contribution above the Lords. From that point on, (remember Cain was not destroyed), he could no longer have the same standing as he once held and was commanded to leave. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand; 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a afugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. He could no longer be innocent he was cursed. If you were sinless and able to get back into the presence of God by your own efforts but then fall you are cursed because you can only get back now through the efforts of someone accountable who is sinless, or He who was without sin. 13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. Here is the part most people miss or fail to understand: 15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. This applied to his offspring as well. The mark of Cain was giving as a warning to those who did not carry the mark. 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. He knew is wife this scriptures says, a sister that was not carrying the same mark and not under any condemnation of the Lord, so much so that from their union was born Enoch. So righteous was Enoch he lived and set an example to all the human family of how we should live. So righteous were the people of the City of Enoch that the Lord put the city somewhere else not even on the Earth at all. If we accept Jesus Christ as our saviour and strive to obey His commandments we qualify for all that He has promised. Accepting Christ as our saviour and obeying His commandments means we must attend His church and be subject to the saving ordinances. No other church on Earth has all the saving ordinances than does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. This is the only truth we should concern ourselves about everything else is to distract us from that truth.

The Book of Mormon has all the answers if you know where to look for them. For whatever reason for the colour of your skin, be it the mark of Cain or simply natural pigmentation because of climatic conditions it matters not. You are a child of God and no different in the sight of Him as anyone of his children. Human nature being as it is likes to see advantage over another because that is one less obstacle to cross, supposedly. The Lords loves those who overcome their trials and his love was never expressed more greatly than towards the Lamanites who had turned away from the traditions of their fathers and embraced the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I attended a symposium in my stake some years ago where the topic of the speakers talk was the preparation of the peoples of African descendant to receive the priesthood. “There has been a great work done amongst these peoples, he expounded, “no more than when the foundations were laid for them to receive the Priesthood.” Whole stakes and wards in some parts of the world were organised from countless, devoted, baptised members’ eager to be about the Lords work just waiting for the authority to be bestowed upon them. This was done in living memory of many church members and heralded in a time equal only to restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This part of his talk lasted about 90 minutes and went into great detail the various steps involved in bringing this about, far too much to mention here, but the conclusion that was left with me was a strong, positive feeling and an understanding that you are indeed a choice people, loved, cherished and of great worth. Growing up with a speech impediment gave me an insight to how cruel some people can be and I have never in any way sided with attitudes and behaviours that set one people above another. We must see this from God’s perspective not our own or misled individuals. His is the power and the glory and He dictated when these things came to pass because only He can see the end from the beginning.

My view is putting into perspective why are here and try to remember in the end its not down to what others do with their probation on Earth it’s what we do with it. If I look over my time as member of Christ's church, being taken out of the world when I was thirty you might say, being amongst people supposedly enlightened or being enlighten , that my time should have been better than if I had stayed away then you would be wrong. I’ve experienced a lot of unkind, unchristian individuals. Seen my wife and children abused, I’ve often wondered what on earth I am doing here. What I cannot deny, ever deny, is that I was told the truth that February Tuesday 22 years ago. The truth that Joseph Smith was who he said he was and the church he organised was Jesus Christ’s restored after being lost at the deaths of the last apostles nearly two thousand years ago. Not all of us are natural church members and expect better from those that are. But the answer lies in the Plan of salvation. To me the Gospel is a lot simpler than most people sometimes claim. In the great council often referred as the war in heaven was no more than a great debate over whether we go along with the way it’s always been done or the easier route turning over our free agency to Lucifer. In any debate there are always those that are firmly rooted on one side or the other and it is the floaters that fuel the debate. Human nature being what it was would have a majority in favour of an easier route. Only after all the pros and cons were laid out did it eventually have two thirds of us choosing Jehovah’s persuasions and the Plan of Salvation. It wasn’t Lucifer’s plan that got him ejected from heaven but rebelling and possibly trying to win back floaters that subjected him to the laws of heaven and Father’s disapproval. Remember he and his followers are still down here and because of the veil we don’t know if we were one of the floaters or not. The fact he and his devils never lets up is an indication that that might be a possibility. Satan is relentless in his pursuit to get as many of us in his court as possible even though he can never win. The only victory he could ever have is for him to say had we followed him we would have all got back. Fortunately for all of us through the Plan of Salvation the sort of victory Christ’s offers us is more meaningful and eternal. Lucifer offered us another way, Jehovah pondered in his mind, after acquiring all the information he could, that there was no other way to get all that our Father had then by the way it had always been done. There are always going to be those that will upset or disappoint us just as there are always going to be those that uplift and inspire us what is more important is that we always remember whose plan we follow and are always striving to do the best we can.

Not sure you are writing to the right person here but if you think you are could you clarify what update you are asking for.

I'm beginning to wonder if what I am saying is being misread because the replies I get only confirm what I've been saying but imply that perhaps I don't understand. Before I joined the church my knowledge of Christ was fanciful base not on acquired knowledge but the traditions passed down. Nevertheless I truly believed God was there, answered prayers and generally blessed the faithful. After joining the church and reading the Book of Mormon my second novel was Jesus the Christ. This book sorted out the fancy ideas that were the basis of my understanding. It was from this book that my faith in Jesus Christ became based on a firm foundation not the wishy-washy base it was on before. Hope then became the fortifying force of my testimony because I knew for a surety that God was a living, breathing being and that His Son Jesus Christ was right there with him. But this understanding did not mean I had faith any way near a mustard seed rather a clear path how to develop that faith. Priesthood blessing did bring some remarkable outcomes but also some realisations that sometimes the blessing I gave were not always want the Lord wanted. You see true faith is being one with the Lord in all things something that most of us are trying to achieve but are no way near. So yes while faith in God begins the process it is hope that true faith is built upon because there can be no wavering in these matters.

I've never doubted there was a God or that Jesus was the Christ it was understanding what I believed that was the problem. I can never recollect ever hoping what I believed to be true was right. My understanding of God and Jesus was wrong it turned out but my belief in them wasn't. There has been countless lesson in church regarding hope and from these lesson I learned most people's hope is on the 'I hope that' instead of 'hope in', can you see the differance? one hopes with doubt the other hopes in belief. one might the other is assured. If you are constructing a skyscaper you do so with proven methods you don't hope it will stand up in a strong wind. The same is with God we don't have to hope the plan of salvation works for us we just have follow the proven methods God has laid out for us. The one difference is that with us we cannot sign off the work when it is done like a building all we can do is present our work to the Lord and leave it to His grace. But remember he loves us despite how far we fall short so we don't have hope our best is good enough just accept He knows best and will judge us correctly.

What I have been saying or trying to say is that if we just hope for something we leave it to chance or providence whichever way you look at it. But hope in Christ comforts the soul because in order to have this sort of hope we believe in the reality of Him. Knowing God this way invokes in me all the emotions we have discussed and the scriptures bear up. There is a realisation that although I am a child of my Father in heaven my life choices have created an enmity between us. Then I learned that through his son Jesus Christ I can repent of the things that created this enmity and then Father can use his grace to accept me back. These are the seeds of humility, meekness, real faith, hope and charity towards my fellow man in me. If there are those who can achieve this another way wonderful they are truly blessed. For me there is no other way

A broken-heart and a contrite spirit says it all in one small statement. Broken heart stems from love or the loss of love once had, but in this context it refers to the love of God or more precise our love of God. It's recognising what retched souls we are and how sorry we are for coming so short of the love we get from God. But knowing this we offer our contrition and by doing so qualify for the grace of God and there it is again good old hope. Is this getting boring?

Yes I concur with that It was more a personal thing in that the style used help me engage with the real facts quicker than just reading the history. This is the skill of writing in this way. But as you have rightly cautioned fiction is just that made up and should not depend on it as fact.

Yes the scripture you quoted says exactly what I've been saying once we except God we have hope in Him and we can hope for better things like the scripture says because with God all things are possible.

If we hope for something better we lack true faith because it is tinged with doubt. God has told us there is something better and he cannot lie so we don’t have to hope he’s telling the truth. Also if we are doing the best we can and striving to obey all commandments we qualify ourselves through the gift of repentance for the mercy of God. So we don’t have to hope have we done enough. We came from a perfect place, we set off on this journey not expecting to fail and except a lesser existence to the one we had. All we wanted was to be like our Father and Mother and inherit the kingdoms promised to those that kept both estates the great plan laid it out for us what we needed to do to get back. Understanding this as referred in the scripture quoted does increase faith because this kind of hope dispels doubt.

This is starting to get confusing I thought I was replying to the guy who has problems with early leaders and thinking of leaving the church. These recommended books helped me more than I could ever expect particularly the first. In fact after reading Trial of the Stick of Joseph where before I believed Joseph Smith was a prophet now I actually knew and it has remained that way. I also think the problem with a lot of member’s problems is not having a firm testimony on Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon. The recommended book puts the BOM on trial in a modern court of law. It was written by a mature LDS law student who as part of his studies needed to defend something, anything, in a real court setting with judge, jury, and prosecution. So he decided to use the Book of Mormon. Witnesses were proxies of the early leaders with substantiating evidence from the scriptures. There is a children’s version and an adult one both easily read in one day. If you don’t know the history of the church well enough Gerald Lund’s Work and the Glory series tells it as it was. His style has you right amongst the main characters as if you were actually there. Volume 7 in particular deals with polygamy in a way that helped me understand why this was introduced into the church only to be the very thing that almost bankrupt it when the US government were about to seize all assets if the practise continued.

If you have not already done so can I recommend some books to read that helped me and might do the same for you. The first is the 'Trial of the Stick of Joseph', and the others are the 'Work and Glory' series, in particular volume 7. The first will take no more than an hour to read and why I recommend it first the others considerable longer. All available from Deseret book stores

My point exactly

Thanks but it was not me reading anti stuff

Faith, real faith is hope in Christ, hope in Christ increases faith or connects us with the true source of the power of faith. We are here to choose either to follow God's plan or Lucifer's. If it’s the former we need to turn our lives over to Him and be guided by Him, which takes faith. God cannot lie and tells us that by doing His will we can inherit all that He has, that is hope. It is hope because we are not perfect and only perfect beings get through this life by themselves. Jesus was the only being that has done this and has satisfied the demands of Justice He can act on our behalf and plead not for our sake but his. Jesus has given us the ability to repent and true repentance qualifies us for the mercy of God and through the grace of God we are saved If we chose Lucifer’s way we can do more or less what we want except determine the consequences. The best we can hope for here is that God will forgive us but we have no promise.

I mention in the last thread the need for obedience as a key to the real power of faith. Does God answer every pray? Yes he does!! So why don’t we always get what we want? Is not praying to learn to do what the Lord wants for us and not what we think we want? So if you want to run a marathon but are physically unable but asked God to be cured but still nothings happens does not mean that the Lord has not answered your prayer or just because you lacked the sufficient faith? Jesus made many references to the lack of faith in his disciples yet said if they had faith the size of a mustard seed they could say to the mountain be ye flat and it would obey. So is our faith less than even a mustard seed which is minute? The problem I think is not understanding the Lord’s will in this. If we had just a minute practical of real faith what would we do with it? Would we go around removing mountains or turning water into land or healing the sick and afflicted willy-nilly, would we end wars with a single thought or perhaps influence our fellow man to be good? We first have to understand God who is the architect of all things, know his ways and are guided by his wisdom then we can accept things are for righteous purposes and that while running a marathon on two good legs might be the desires of our heart it might not what the Lord knows is best for us. But what if he is called to run young men’s as president, a task surely needing at the very least two legs , but knows the Lord would not call anyone to such a post unless he had prepared a way for him to do so. Then as a result of that calling one young man who might have fallen away passes through the program, goes on a mission and teaches one man the gospel that then is baptised, both he and the baptised man marries their external partners in the Temple, holds various callings including bishops and stake presidents. During his ministry the Lord healed many people with various problems, the lame, blind, crippled even the recently deceased but to me none were more profound than the raising from the dead of Lazarus and healing of the blind man he anointed with clay. Jesus could have easily made it to Lazarus’s side while he was yet alive but chose to delay to not only allow Lazarus to die but long enough to dispel any doubts that he was not in a coma or something. Burying him wrapped from head to foot in burial clothes had he been alive would have suffocated him. Lazarus was dearly loved by Jesus so not to come to his immediate aid is not something he would do unless it was His Father’s will. With healing the blind He simple had to touch them but with the last recorded case of Him healing the blind saw Him scooping up dust and using spittle to form clay. Was this man without eyes? Did Jesus fashion eyeballs from the clay to demonstrate and dispel any doubt of his power. The blind man was seen by the leaders as a sinner or his parents as sinners hence his condition but in this as in all cases prior these people existed or were in their conditions for righteous purposes and to allow Jesus to perform these miracles. We can do the Lord’s will even if that is healing someone that is paralysed to run a marathon but we first must learn to be obedient and accept His will in everything even if we naturally disagree or don't understand.

Some years ago I accepted a calling into the young men’s presidency as 1st councillor, the new president while a good man and hard working had not been president before. His first task was to have a meeting with the young men but excluded his councillors. My response to that was not to support him in his calling and just did not turn up for meetings, the 2nd councillor did the same. Eventually a meeting was called with the member of the bishopric responsible for young men’s. In this meeting we were able to express our grievances. The result of that meeting was the release of the presidency and reassignments for all of us. The 2nd councillor left the church and never came back. It was later said that the reasons he left was because of this young men’s presidency experience but not with the president but me. I searched long and hard to why he would site me as the reason but when I look back it was simple. While the president should have included his councillors especially involving the young men my action said more about me than him. You see this is not my program it’s the Lord’s he put together the presidency and knows all the strengths and weaknesses of those involved. I needed to learn humility and the president needed to learn how to trust and delegate had we worked together then perhaps both of us would have grown from the experience and even become good friends, although he never once showed any resentment towards me the 2nd councillor did and is still inactive. God leads this church not individuals if He was the president of the young men’s at this time it would have been a perfect presidency nevertheless He trusts and delegates important responsibilities to us lesser mortals but does not leave us to our own understandings we can asks Him for guidance, we can plead for understanding and we can petition the Lord to help us be more humble to see those that grieve us as the children of God they are. Do know the church is true? From your words I think you do. With reference to leaders in the early days of the church we have leaders today who have lived in better light than those in the past, but remember those times was taking men and women from a period just preceding the dark ages. It’s remarkable the depth of change they must have had to go through just like converts to the church have to go through today. The Lord loves all his children but also knows we fall well short of the perfection he encourages us to become but while we are trying our best or just trying to get to our best there is hope in Christ that he will do the rest. I have to live with the thought that something I have done has led to one of the Lord’s anointed going astray but all I can really do is to repent, forgive and improve.