volgadon
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Posts posted by volgadon
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I know this thread is kind of snowballing; but my own interest revolves primarily around whether a state can implement socialist policy by means other than threat of force (even if that force is only as a last resort after Volgadon's proposals of fines, "voluntary" emigration, etc. are disregarded by the individuals being punished).
What I posted holds true for any state. You even get to read such an example in Sunday School...
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The United Order is FAITH based... with those who choose to participate. It isn't compulsory. All things are shared, but through a shared moral code that each give according to their strengths.
Because of that choice, it's easier to choose to build up Zion... than to have it forced amongst and throughout a country.
One is choice; the other can be construed as slavery.
You cannot legislate morality. But you can have a group of people who share strengths, talents and morality to build up a society.
That can't be fabricated by man. The natural man will always find a way to dominate over another. It takes higher ideals than purely one's own self-interest.
But it must be voluntary with a shared moral code. No moral code? It dissintegrates.
there are plenty of examples of socialism which is voluntary and in which people share a goal, an ideal, and a moral code. It gets excruciatingly tiresome when people equate socialism with force, as it is obvious to me that I'm getting no further than I would with a brick wall.
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That is a Zion mentality, which isn't socialism at all. Thus I am still confused where people talk about socialism in the BoM.
A Zion mentality is communism or communlism, which is a form of socialism.
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Because it's not socialism.
Then what is it?
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What details or factors would influence your answer?
One factor, for instance, would be how much of a threat was posed. If said group was going to overthrow the state by force of arms, then of course harsher measures would have to be taken than otherwise.
Other options include voluntary emigration, fines, and limitations.
All of this, of course, would require a means for judicial appeal and also elections, to lessen the risk of abuses.
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Jim Rohn said "America is unique. It's a ladder to climb. It starts around $8/hour (today). If you're going to stay at the bottom, then maybe it should be higher. But that's a pitiful way to live - start and not grow? Start and not change? Start and not develop? Part of the mystery of life is to start #1, and to become better #2."
You don't think that a low minimum wage impedes growth in the slightest?
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I'm not following. Jezreel Valley is under Israeli Government - Parliamentary democratic.
It is now, but read about what happened to the swamps.
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Socialism kills ambition. Why work harder to invent or improve things if all your extra effort is redistributed to others... because of their 'need'?
Without rewards, we are all subject to the results of minimum required efforts of others.
Come visit the Jezreel Valley. Show me the swamp and I'll show you how socialism kills ambition.
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I am confused where the Book of Mormon talks about anything socialistic?
The beginning of 4 Nephi is the most obvious example.
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Go to jail?
Sure, if you want to keep it on the Monopoly level.
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Sure, but this is your ideal socialist state. What do you think is the best means of enforcement?
Not something I can answer as a pure hypothetical, especially with no details provided.
(And I realize your own perspective might not necessarily jibe with the preferences of other socialist-sympathizers who may contribute here.)
Of course. We aren't mindless drones.
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Lots of great (and not-so-great) fiction out there exploring how things could go. I wonder if people wrote fiction about the future of the British Empire in the 19th century?
I'm trying to recall any before the early 20th c.
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That would be interesting... because, I didn't provide a cause.
Really?
"The problem is too many people refuse to live healthy. They'd rather get the government or the insurance to pay for their meds than for them to spend more on proper nutrition."
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Insulting to those in poor health? It is FACT. You don't even need to make scientific studies on it. Just walk down your grocery store. The cheapest things are the most unhealthy things. The nutritional ones are those in "special aisles" with high price tags. Why do you think that is?
I mean, even dog food is amazingly ______ (can't find the word I need - idiotic?). The healthy food costs 3 times as much as the crap food. People don't have a problem with feeding their dogs Dog Chow.
I actually agree with you on this point, that the healthy food is more expensive, but I disagree with you on the cassus.
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And for the record I didn't say voting for Democrats equals sin. Egg on your face?
Not unless you can provide a cogent explanation for this. "As LDS we have the responsibility to dig deeper into these questions and not just brush them off with "Jesus loves everyone." Yes he does but we know that answer doesn't justify sin. "
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What do you in any state with those individuals that are against it?
Let me hasten to add that this is a very serious question which each and every regime, goverment, state, religion, church, community, organisation, etc., must ask. There will always be a range of varying answers.
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2) In that nation-state, what happened to the individuals who did not want to live under and devote their material means to such a regimen;
What do you in any state with those individuals that are against it?
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Are we really so scared of getting attacked as a religious zealot if we vote what we believe is good for society because we learned it from religion?
No, which is why I'm a socialist.
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Tell me what you see as silliness in this statement.
That voting for the Democrats equals sin.
For the record, I didn't vote at all in the election.
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Anatess, when you can learn to discuss with people what they believe rather than tell them what they believe, maybe then we can talk about these things.
Amen.
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As LDS we have the responsibility to dig deeper into these questions and not just brush them off with "Jesus loves everyone." Yes he does but we know that answer doesn't justify sin.
I really don't know how to respond to this, err, (looking for a term that won't get me banned), silliness.
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I will make a mental note to completely agree with this woman on politics if we are ever conversing.
Hmm, I have a better idea. "Oh my gosh, someone is reading Marx's Capital over there!" As she turns the key in the ignition is the time to slip away unnoticed.
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Of course secession is unconstitutional. You don't secede by suing somebody. Yo secede by a successful revolt.
In today's climate, it might not be as bloody as the Civil War. There's a universal distaste for death even in war. And with Russia splintering, it's not too far-fetched to imagine America going that route. I don think it's going to happen, but you never know...
Russia splintering? Haven't heard that.
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If it waddles like a duck, floats like a duck, flies like a duck, quacks like a duck... it's a duck.
Most people, though, don't really know how a duck waddles, floats, flies, or quacks...
The (civil) (Obama-free) socialism thread
in General Discussion
Posted
Argument by dictionary, cute. You do realise that you have completely misread this, right?