deals_dog

"Are you seriously unaware that if an abortion is painful to the baby because it sucks it out or chemically burns it, it does not matter how it was conceived?" Elphaba Easy to get misquoted Elphaba. This is such a tricky subject to negotiate. Any time there is a sinful act committed there are generally unavoidable consequences and a fair bit of pain and misery, even the pain of an unborn child who is unable to speak for him or her's self. Rape is such a nasty messy crime, and so many victims. To the unborn child you are correct, it does not matter how it was conceived, that innocent child is going to experience pain before it dies. Yes I do understand and support church policy on this one because of the violation that has occurred to the woman. Mind you a good Catholic would disagree with me on that one. Others would say the mother has every right it is her body. Hence the conflict.

The abortion issue debated till we are blue in the face and yes it will be resolved (when Christ returns to the earth) However in the mean time if someone wishes to spend 3.2 million dollars to appose the practice of abortion to a large audience they have my support. Putting their money where their mouth is, those other womans groups could pay 3.3 million and have their add posted too if they are that upset, capitalism at work again. If you have money you can say anything to the masses, if you have none sorry sucker you are a second class citizen. (really works eh!)

It happens in America to. I remember a close call two missionaries had in my mission. It had been snowing, there was some kind of gas leak under the house. Caused a very nasty explosion with the two missionaries in the house. Fortunately nobody was hurt. Accidents do happen it is tragic when they do my heart goes out to the families of those young men.

New Zealand a country of 4 million people has had involvement in Vietnam and presently has troops in Afghanistan. As a little nation we have stood by the US in a lot of conflicts. One of the schools in my local area was built by the US army during the 2nd war. We were extremely reluctant to walk into Iraq which I initially thought was an error in judgment by our prime minister, however I was the one in error. Hatred of the nature demonstrated by Sune and Shiites towards one another (excuse the spelling ) is just too great to extinguish. I believe in the good intention of the US in entering into this conflict however it seems to be proving to be a thorn in her side. What is more the US seems to have become a target, a symbol of hatred vindication for radical Muslim groups. If I had my way I would pull all my troops out and leave them to it.

As long as New Zealanders can apply for this I am all for it. I will be 50 this year! The problem is however we don't seem to see to many US cars down here. Mind you I believe that the Japanese make cars that people seem to want to buy. My uncle has a 1967 Ford Mustang now that is one American car that I would not mind having.

The US has had a bit of a flogging at times over its foreign polices. However for those of you who are Americans on this site I tip my hat to you all yet again. I am absolutely awestruck at the out pouring of aid and equipment coming to assist our Haitian Brothers and Sisters from the United States. New Zealand a very small country has pledged 1 million dollars. China a very wealth Nation has also committed 1million dollars (makes you think a little does it not?) But the United States has rolled up her sleeves once more and is really going to work to assist those folk. You can be proud of your country as I am of it. I served as a missionary to the folks in Southern California in 1980-82 and loved the people there. I know the church will be busy and I will be assisting by giving a bit more in the fast offering next month. My heart and prayers go out to our family in Haiti

Yes we can all get wrapped up in fantasy world for a while but it is nice also return back to the real world. After all this is the only place in which true miracles can happen. I find it amusing why we get so caught up in the virtual world of some one else's imagine and star worship that we forget that our own life can be a real amazing place, if we want it to be so and if we put forward the effort. So I am not surprised in the least to find people getting hung up on vapors and silly things.

I agree with you about the making of Bad laws to remedy a problem. And even if the law is a good law that is put into place, it has still got to be policed and enforced. That is a problem in itself. So what is the answer then. Identify a problem and do nothing? Do you think that we have a problem with alcohol in our respective communities? If the answer is education how do you approach that to make it effective. If you should take sex education for example, from my understanding it has been part of the school curriculum for a while now and the US has one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy in the Western world. So what is going wrong? I am not attacking your argument I am interested in understanding how you are drawing your conclusions. I also believe that some cultures seem on the surface to handle alcohol better than others. You have mentioned the Philippines for example. Now again for the record I state for the 3rd time not all people who drink are drunkards "Drinking wine at Catholic mass hardly gets anybody drunk. A glass of rice wine to toast a fiesta hardly gets anybody drunk. A shot of brandy to warm your insides after a deep-sea dive hardly gets anybody drunk. Red wine sauce to flavor your chicken hardly gets anybody drunk. None of these activities will cause you to beat your wives and kids and kick your dog." I agree with you (for the third time.) So for the second time "do you believe that we have an alcohol problem. If you don't believe that there is a problem this debate is over between you and I. I don't know what your IQ is, mine is not that high. However I do not believe that an IQ test is the only way of gauging intelligence (I would say that because mine wasn't that high right?) Please accept my apology regarding my little out burst yesterday you are entirely right in saying that personal attack does not further my side in a debate, sorry please forgive me.

Good for you Godless. My brother who is long inactive had a craft beer show at his place, all and sundry showed up from miles around proudly displaying there various toxins, from what I have been told there were a few sore heads in the morning. I have no problem with people drinking in moderation, it comes down to personal choice however excessive drinkers seem to effect so many others often in very negative ways.

My apologies to Anatess, I was out of line. Unfortunately I was having trouble understanding the logic of your argument and got a bit emotional and frustrated. Got to give me a few points for being energetic in my approach eh? I did however agree with a lot that you were saying, until you lost me about banning tea, could not see the relationship between tea and our topic, got me lost totally. Well Godless you have a bias in this insomuch as you want to make beer, we have too much of the stuff available now for people to drink, your choice, if you want to make a business as a beer maker go for it. Mind you I have noted the good Muslems as well as mormons would be less than supportive. So Godless what is your interest in floating around a church web site? Would not a Beer making site be more for your tastes?

Well Anatess now you are getting ridiculous and I thought you were educated. The church at one stage did try to have Utah as an alcohol free state but if memory serves public apathy caused that plan to fail. Regarding education, yes it is wonderful and we agree, the problem is that to educate you have to have a willingness on students part to actually want to listen, be taught and then buy into the proposals put forward. Education is a big process and the desired results will be seen over time. What I am looking at is what can be done in our communities now. Making it difficult for Youth to get hold of Alcohol would be a start. Stopping the manufacture of ready to drink soda pop alcohol drinks would be another, or taxing the product out of the youth market. In my country New Zealand we have a real problem with booze and some sort of action needs to be taken. Just out of interest Anatess we have started to move by having alcohol bans in public areas such as beaches etc and have noted a considerable drop in crime particularly on New Years day. One place we had riots regularly, they band the consumption of Alcohol in these areas and hardly a problem. And perhaps the majority of people are not drunkards as you suggest, so why is the church trying to influence the alcohol debate? Your last argument about banning tea, honestly. Tea may cause health problems, but domestic violence. Don't drink tea and drive, no problem there eh?

Well Anatess you can get rid of the Alcohol and yes that would solve a few problems. So would banning sex I suppose, no people after a while then no problem. Yes you could try and educate but that has not proven very effective over time has it. When did education programs directed at youth regarding binge drinking suddenly become effective. I am afraid alcohol and humans do not mix, hence the reason why the lord banned it in the word of wisdom eh? Have you tried to educate an alcoholic or reason with a drunk. Or have you been at a raging youth party and told them to drink in moderation. Good luck on that one buddy. I am glad the church is making a stand and so should we as members of the church make a stand in the communities in which we live.

I think with the amount of suffering that Alcohol brings into our communities that it is due time that we stood up and registered our concerns. I have seen too much under age street drinking and the problems that that behavior has had. The festive session violence that seems to be largely attributed to drinking.The same with domestic violence. At present we have alco-pop drink being served to young adults, in my country they lowered the drinking age to 18 and that in itself has been problematic. Don't wait for the church to make statements, church members need to act

They say beauty is only skin deep. And the ways of the world are as equally shallow. However you can't help worry about the physical shape of some of the members of the church. Too many are very over weight and are shortening their lives as much as some of those folk who smoke or drink excessively. We have this wonderful word of wisdom yet we refuse to live it then die before our used by date has expired. We really do have to get up and move and stop stuffing our faces to excess. Not looking after our bodies is a kin to Temple abuse so lets repent and get with it. I lost 90 lbs and have never felt better I can now do a bit more of what the lord expects of me to do and hopefully be here a bit longer to enjoy the grand children

Well palerider, I look forward to being de-horse manured, as long as you are an ethnic minority living on a minimum wage with out medical insurance with a family to support. living in a poorer neighborhood. Then you will have my full attention then you would be speaking with qualification. In New Zealand where I live we also have relative poverty and it is a problem. I didn't realize how much of a problem it was till I had to research it. Here I was middle class white New Zealander and not realizing how bad things were in my own neck of the woods, so I am not picking on American. What I am saying is for a country of great wealth power there seems to be a lot of people getting left behind. That seems to be the pattern of all capitalist countries. The communist obviously don't have the answers either. New Zealand who has a socialist model are struggling also. I would say that gospel of Jesus Christ has the cure but we are a very small voice in a very large crowd. So please don't be offended, I believe it is not only till we see ourselves as we really are that we can make things better. And if you are offended that's your choice. As for the original discussion of global warming, well we have helped make our planet warmer no doubt. Can it be fixed, yeah but conditions won't change over night. Can world leaders from rich and poor nations come to any agreement? Yes as long as money is not the solution.