deals_dog

"Are you seriously unaware that if an abortion is painful to the baby because it sucks it out or chemically burns it, it does not matter how it was conceived?" Elphaba Easy to get misquoted Elphaba. This is such a tricky subject to negotiate. Any time there is a sinful act committed there are generally unavoidable consequences and a fair bit of pain and misery, even the pain of an unborn child who is unable to speak for him or her's self. Rape is such a nasty messy crime, and so many victims. To the unborn child you are correct, it does not matter how it was conceived, that innocent child is going to experience pain before it dies. Yes I do understand and support church policy on this one because of the violation that has occurred to the woman. Mind you a good Catholic would disagree with me on that one. Others would say the mother has every right it is her body. Hence the conflict.

The abortion issue debated till we are blue in the face and yes it will be resolved (when Christ returns to the earth) However in the mean time if someone wishes to spend 3.2 million dollars to appose the practice of abortion to a large audience they have my support. Putting their money where their mouth is, those other womans groups could pay 3.3 million and have their add posted too if they are that upset, capitalism at work again. If you have money you can say anything to the masses, if you have none sorry sucker you are a second class citizen. (really works eh!)

It happens in America to. I remember a close call two missionaries had in my mission. It had been snowing, there was some kind of gas leak under the house. Caused a very nasty explosion with the two missionaries in the house. Fortunately nobody was hurt. Accidents do happen it is tragic when they do my heart goes out to the families of those young men.

New Zealand a country of 4 million people has had involvement in Vietnam and presently has troops in Afghanistan. As a little nation we have stood by the US in a lot of conflicts. One of the schools in my local area was built by the US army during the 2nd war. We were extremely reluctant to walk into Iraq which I initially thought was an error in judgment by our prime minister, however I was the one in error. Hatred of the nature demonstrated by Sune and Shiites towards one another (excuse the spelling ) is just too great to extinguish. I believe in the good intention of the US in entering into this conflict however it seems to be proving to be a thorn in her side. What is more the US seems to have become a target, a symbol of hatred vindication for radical Muslim groups. If I had my way I would pull all my troops out and leave them to it.

As long as New Zealanders can apply for this I am all for it. I will be 50 this year! The problem is however we don't seem to see to many US cars down here. Mind you I believe that the Japanese make cars that people seem to want to buy. My uncle has a 1967 Ford Mustang now that is one American car that I would not mind having.

The US has had a bit of a flogging at times over its foreign polices. However for those of you who are Americans on this site I tip my hat to you all yet again. I am absolutely awestruck at the out pouring of aid and equipment coming to assist our Haitian Brothers and Sisters from the United States. New Zealand a very small country has pledged 1 million dollars. China a very wealth Nation has also committed 1million dollars (makes you think a little does it not?) But the United States has rolled up her sleeves once more and is really going to work to assist those folk. You can be proud of your country as I am of it. I served as a missionary to the folks in Southern California in 1980-82 and loved the people there. I know the church will be busy and I will be assisting by giving a bit more in the fast offering next month. My heart and prayers go out to our family in Haiti

Yes we can all get wrapped up in fantasy world for a while but it is nice also return back to the real world. After all this is the only place in which true miracles can happen. I find it amusing why we get so caught up in the virtual world of some one else's imagine and star worship that we forget that our own life can be a real amazing place, if we want it to be so and if we put forward the effort. So I am not surprised in the least to find people getting hung up on vapors and silly things.

I agree with you about the making of Bad laws to remedy a problem. And even if the law is a good law that is put into place, it has still got to be policed and enforced. That is a problem in itself. So what is the answer then. Identify a problem and do nothing? Do you think that we have a problem with alcohol in our respective communities? If the answer is education how do you approach that to make it effective. If you should take sex education for example, from my understanding it has been part of the school curriculum for a while now and the US has one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy in the Western world. So what is going wrong? I am not attacking your argument I am interested in understanding how you are drawing your conclusions. I also believe that some cultures seem on the surface to handle alcohol better than others. You have mentioned the Philippines for example. Now again for the record I state for the 3rd time not all people who drink are drunkards "Drinking wine at Catholic mass hardly gets anybody drunk. A glass of rice wine to toast a fiesta hardly gets anybody drunk. A shot of brandy to warm your insides after a deep-sea dive hardly gets anybody drunk. Red wine sauce to flavor your chicken hardly gets anybody drunk. None of these activities will cause you to beat your wives and kids and kick your dog." I agree with you (for the third time.) So for the second time "do you believe that we have an alcohol problem. If you don't believe that there is a problem this debate is over between you and I. I don't know what your IQ is, mine is not that high. However I do not believe that an IQ test is the only way of gauging intelligence (I would say that because mine wasn't that high right?) Please accept my apology regarding my little out burst yesterday you are entirely right in saying that personal attack does not further my side in a debate, sorry please forgive me.

Good for you Godless. My brother who is long inactive had a craft beer show at his place, all and sundry showed up from miles around proudly displaying there various toxins, from what I have been told there were a few sore heads in the morning. I have no problem with people drinking in moderation, it comes down to personal choice however excessive drinkers seem to effect so many others often in very negative ways.

My apologies to Anatess, I was out of line. Unfortunately I was having trouble understanding the logic of your argument and got a bit emotional and frustrated. Got to give me a few points for being energetic in my approach eh? I did however agree with a lot that you were saying, until you lost me about banning tea, could not see the relationship between tea and our topic, got me lost totally. Well Godless you have a bias in this insomuch as you want to make beer, we have too much of the stuff available now for people to drink, your choice, if you want to make a business as a beer maker go for it. Mind you I have noted the good Muslems as well as mormons would be less than supportive. So Godless what is your interest in floating around a church web site? Would not a Beer making site be more for your tastes?

Well Anatess now you are getting ridiculous and I thought you were educated. The church at one stage did try to have Utah as an alcohol free state but if memory serves public apathy caused that plan to fail. Regarding education, yes it is wonderful and we agree, the problem is that to educate you have to have a willingness on students part to actually want to listen, be taught and then buy into the proposals put forward. Education is a big process and the desired results will be seen over time. What I am looking at is what can be done in our communities now. Making it difficult for Youth to get hold of Alcohol would be a start. Stopping the manufacture of ready to drink soda pop alcohol drinks would be another, or taxing the product out of the youth market. In my country New Zealand we have a real problem with booze and some sort of action needs to be taken. Just out of interest Anatess we have started to move by having alcohol bans in public areas such as beaches etc and have noted a considerable drop in crime particularly on New Years day. One place we had riots regularly, they band the consumption of Alcohol in these areas and hardly a problem. And perhaps the majority of people are not drunkards as you suggest, so why is the church trying to influence the alcohol debate? Your last argument about banning tea, honestly. Tea may cause health problems, but domestic violence. Don't drink tea and drive, no problem there eh?

Well Anatess you can get rid of the Alcohol and yes that would solve a few problems. So would banning sex I suppose, no people after a while then no problem. Yes you could try and educate but that has not proven very effective over time has it. When did education programs directed at youth regarding binge drinking suddenly become effective. I am afraid alcohol and humans do not mix, hence the reason why the lord banned it in the word of wisdom eh? Have you tried to educate an alcoholic or reason with a drunk. Or have you been at a raging youth party and told them to drink in moderation. Good luck on that one buddy. I am glad the church is making a stand and so should we as members of the church make a stand in the communities in which we live.

I think with the amount of suffering that Alcohol brings into our communities that it is due time that we stood up and registered our concerns. I have seen too much under age street drinking and the problems that that behavior has had. The festive session violence that seems to be largely attributed to drinking.The same with domestic violence. At present we have alco-pop drink being served to young adults, in my country they lowered the drinking age to 18 and that in itself has been problematic. Don't wait for the church to make statements, church members need to act

They say beauty is only skin deep. And the ways of the world are as equally shallow. However you can't help worry about the physical shape of some of the members of the church. Too many are very over weight and are shortening their lives as much as some of those folk who smoke or drink excessively. We have this wonderful word of wisdom yet we refuse to live it then die before our used by date has expired. We really do have to get up and move and stop stuffing our faces to excess. Not looking after our bodies is a kin to Temple abuse so lets repent and get with it. I lost 90 lbs and have never felt better I can now do a bit more of what the lord expects of me to do and hopefully be here a bit longer to enjoy the grand children

Well palerider, I look forward to being de-horse manured, as long as you are an ethnic minority living on a minimum wage with out medical insurance with a family to support. living in a poorer neighborhood. Then you will have my full attention then you would be speaking with qualification. In New Zealand where I live we also have relative poverty and it is a problem. I didn't realize how much of a problem it was till I had to research it. Here I was middle class white New Zealander and not realizing how bad things were in my own neck of the woods, so I am not picking on American. What I am saying is for a country of great wealth power there seems to be a lot of people getting left behind. That seems to be the pattern of all capitalist countries. The communist obviously don't have the answers either. New Zealand who has a socialist model are struggling also. I would say that gospel of Jesus Christ has the cure but we are a very small voice in a very large crowd. So please don't be offended, I believe it is not only till we see ourselves as we really are that we can make things better. And if you are offended that's your choice. As for the original discussion of global warming, well we have helped make our planet warmer no doubt. Can it be fixed, yeah but conditions won't change over night. Can world leaders from rich and poor nations come to any agreement? Yes as long as money is not the solution.

Yip good things do happen in the US of A. For sports stars who are well ensured. What if he was living on the poorer side of town would he be treated in the same way. What if he had no insurance. Would everybody be rallying around to help him out? Yeah right. What about universal health care for the poor and the needy. My suggestion to you before you burst in to raptures about the virtues of the American health care system would be to rent out the DVD Sicko and get the other side of the story. Admittedly this is a bit dramatic and some of it maybe a bit hyped up but it gets its point across nicely. Don't feel that I am picking on the Americans and saying in isolation that they have a bit on the corrupt side, I think the world in general has bit of cleaning up to do. But don't grandstand about the mighty USA who can wage war in any part of the world it chooses but seems to neglect is poor and needy. Remember hurricane Katrina and how long it took Mr Bush to act to bring aid to his own country man. I rest my case

Well out of all the so called developed nations The good old US of A is near the bottom of the heap when it comes to relative poverty stats, Sure there are a lot of 3rd world countries where people is starving to death. But in terms of one of the most richest nations on earth there seems to be a great deal of disparity. I have a great deal of respect for the American people however, I lived there for 2 years, I also meet those who were struggling on the bottom of the heap. Hopefully Obama will get things moving in the right direction, he has his work cut out for him however Makes you mad or not, that's just the way things are.

Well maxel what if you are not particularly well talented? There seems to be a very high proportion of people in the United States living below the poverty line as there are in my country and we both run the same system. It would seem if you are wealthy you can get away with a lot more than if you are poor. The wealthy have choice, the poor have a hole to try and dig themselves out of. If you know how to work the system then fine and well. I believe the a good way to measure society is how you treat those who are disadvantaged, the old, the widows, the children born into poverty. The United States has a very bad track record of how they treat their own people in need. I wonder if Mr Madoff was one of those poor people who dragged himself out of the pit of poverty to become that wonderful parasite who plundered his own. Remember enron, and the wonderful banking system that almost plunged the world into a depression. Captains of industry who make billions while robbing their fellow Americans and anyone else they can. And we think how great these people are? You are right Maxel it is the abuse of the system that is the problem. But what if the system is becoming totally corrupt, what do we do? As for global warming, one or two volcanic eruptions in Indonesia and we'll be back to cooler weather. The American capitalist system allows for the poor man to apply his talents and lift himself out of poverty. Many of the CEO's of the world's largest companies today started out poor. There are those who abuse the system, yes. But that means abuses of the system are the problem- not the system itself.

Hey the issue is trendy, clouded by emotion, hyped up by politicians who want to be seen to be tackling this serious concern. Yes we do have a problem, yes the world is getting warmer. But the bigger problem is a capitalist system that sees the rich grow richer and the poor well who really cares eh? Rich bankers with huge bonus payments, while others starve. And the we all fight and argue over health care policy while others can get treatment because they cant afford it. Mean while the polar beers got nothing to float on no more

You make some interesting points. first is that you find that it is distracting that you are having an interpreter who is speaking as the lesson is proceeding, I can understand that would take a bit of getting used to and maybe a bit of a problem. I feel that it would be just as distracting for those who are Spanish speaking as well would it not? Maybe have a chat with your Sunday School president about this if it is bothering you. Then you are worried about being labeled racist. Well don't worry about that too much because if you are honest most people are until they get to know each other and really understand that we think a little differently to one another and that different cultures do things that may make one feel a little uncomfortable. Get to know your Hispanic brothers and sisters, show them how much you care and love them. It does take time for people to gain confidence in speaking a new language and it is quite a challenge for your Hispanic church members who are now feeling a little uncomfortable about being in a integrated ward. Learn some spanish yourself. Have fun

If you worry about what other people think of you, you will drive yourself crazy. If you want the approval of all you won't get it. Yes some may laugh at your predicament, but those who laugh are in a far worse state than you think you are. Now is the time for you to act and my advice has always been seek help with church social services, I did and they helped. See your bishop and he will tell you how to get hold of them. It is no good beating yourself up or hating yourself, what is done is done. Now sort it out and live. Don't keep looking back and keep crucifying yourself for the same mistake. Repent truly and let the atonement of Christ do the rest. You know what to do have the courage to do it and do it you will May the lord bless you in your endeavors

Well Dravin I take your points on board. I would say Hunting is unchristian if you don't eat what you kill, and may be if you are over eating meat it might pay to go back to D&C 89 and look at eating meat sparingly. Recreational killing of animals for pleasure never sat well with me, I have however dealt to the odd rabbit and other animal pests I have no problem with self defense and you are right regarding having the right to carry guns to do so (because you live in a land flooded with these weapons somebody is bound to pull one on you so defend yourself) Hey your argument about the gun not killing people its the person pulling the trigger. Maybe if I want to be simplify this a little for you, perhaps pornographic magazines are ok, its those who view them that have the problem. Alcohol may be fine too its those who over consume that have the problem. Yes a car can be used as a weapon so can a fork and a neck tie. Should we have a blanket ban on those too. Common sense has got to prevail somewhere. As for the chemistry set killing the husband illustrated in my last response, yes she could have poisoned her husband, but being to emotional to premeditate this action she choose the easy option, the hand gun in the kitchen draw. Then she tried to kill her self with the same gun in her car. She was not that serious about that committment because she missed blowing a hole in the roof of her Lincoln Continental. The cops who had the car surrounded with their weapons drawn were debating whether to shoot her or not. One very brave officer managed to open the drivers side door grabbed her by the wrist, gun in hand and smashed her head into the side walk a few times till she dropped the weapon. As missionaries we dropped into the institution that had her in custody, she was a real site broken nose and two black eyes. I recall as a missionary having to hit the pavement when a street argument got out of control, I could not believe how fast the hand guns came out, somebody ran inside and came out with a heavy caliber rifle. In one of my areas we lived neighboring a suburb that we were instructed by our mission president we could not enter. Gangs of Hispanics and Blacks who did not seem to enjoy each others company seemed to engage in the odd gun battle at night (they weren't using chemistry sets in those battles). I could go on but I don't want to bore you. I live in a country that has banned hand guns for the use of the general population. We can legally purchase rifles under strict license for hunting and target shooting. We have the odd gun collector who has hand guns etc but under close and tight regulation. Yes some of our gang members have hand guns illegally and our police carry guns from time to time. We in New Zealand have our problems too. In the 48 years I have lived here I have not had a gun pulled on me or my family or my relatives and their families neither have they been shot at. If your law permits you to carry or own hand guns or rifles etc then that's fine but always remember it is not that your society is so good that allows you the right to bare arms, but because you are under constant threat being surrounded by wickedness that you should feel the need to do so. There is no glory in the sword, or the spilling of blood. He that lives by the sword shell die by the sword. I look forward to the coming of Christ when all this should be done away with when we can really live in peace. I look forward to the day when our weapons are beaten into plows or buried in the ground. I am still having a problem with the right to bare arms to be included in a "gospel discussion, but I can understand your point of view and where you are coming from on this. In the United States this is a big issue In final I remember a priesthood discussion dealing with food storage and the right to protect that storage from being stolen by hungry neighbors in times of famine. One of the brothers in the quorum stated that he would have no hesitation to shoot his neighbor who was attempting to steal his food. One very wise old patriarch said that he would invite all his neighbors in and feed them till his food ran out, then would starve together with his neighbors or perhaps God would provide more food. Which one of these men truly loved his neighbor. I hope that I can love my neighbor like that very wise Californian Patriarch. I don't have all the answers but the gospel does All the best

The world would be a better place if no one had them. I don't believe that God is pleased because we have a 357 under our pillow. But in a place like the good old US of A where everybody seems to have a few of them I suppose that makes it alright. But remember what happens when ya children take them to school or your neighbor has a beef with the police and decides to kill a couple of them in a cafe. Just look at the number of deaths and murders you have in your country every year where guns have been responsible. Accidental shootings of family members etc. You may have all the amendments and constitutional rights and the freedom to carry weapons but you are not free from the consequences of nutters in your society who have the same right. I did a two year mission in California, I have a great love for the American people. But the love of guns seems to be a bit unchristian, you know argue with interesting people and shoot them. I remember one lady we were teaching who found out her husband had been cheating on her, decided to shoot her husband when he came home, with the 357 stashed away in one of the draws in the kitchen. She failed and ended up in a mental institution for a few weeks. Or the elders quorum president who discharged his 45 in his lounge when playing with his hand gun. The nazi I visited that had machine guns and pickle barrels full of rifles because he didn't like black folks and Jews. The hells angels motorcycle gang with rifles strapped to their motorcycles. The domestic disputes where a husband killed his wife with a hand gun. No thanks not for me

Welcome to repentance 101. If you thought that for a moment this was going to be some sort of picnic you were dreaming. Repentance is hard work when you do it properly and a walk in the park when you are not serious about what you are doing. Have you approached church social services yet? Do it they are an invaluable tool that will help put some perspective on this for you. You need councilling and a bit of objectivity that will help you move on and find the love for yourself that is missing in your life at present. Take your wife with you, if you are still together. After the bomb shell you delivered at her door I would be very surprised. You have done a very brave thing and a very difficult thing by seeing your bishop. Now go the distance and sort the problem out, truly repent and get down to living. Keep your thoughts clean, only watch and participate in wholesome entertainment. Keep yourself busy in good works. Keep the commandments. And be honest to yourself and those around you. I too have faced the consequences of sin in my life and have spent my fair share of time in bishops office. Next week I will be going for my temple recommend I have not been for about 5 years. From misery and darkness to being in the full light of day feeling good about my self and others. Dont beat yourself death over this thing, you cant go back and right the wrongs, take the medicine get well and live.

Well post your story Atticus, we all could benefit from it. I have gone through a rough patch as well and fell away. And am enjoying the road back to activity, its fun and it is a growing process as with all things in life. Try not to be too hard on yourself for past mistakes, learn from them and move forward. That is what God would have you do. Keep smiling and choose the right in your life Kind regards Deals