lattelady

The Journal of Discourses is LDS writings, correct? They aren't considered "anti", are they? If they contain writings that need some clarification, or some commentary, why would you be up in arms if a nonmember wanted an explanation(from people who would know best--lds) about what exactly the writing means?

Moksha, is the portion of the Journal of Discourses that I mentioned not to be taken literally, then? Joseph and Brigham Young aren't actually given that kind of authority?

Truly, honestly and respectfully I do not understand. I could say that I do, just to avoid your frustration, but have read from the Journal of Discourses, for instance; I read that in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven, people will have to have Joseph's forgiveness for sins-- his and Brigham Young's: that the Lord gave those two prophets the authority to forgive sins. I read other parts of the Journal of Discourses that refer to Joseph and Jesus in the same light, in reference to mankind's salvation. Even the article that was posted in the gospel forum that talked about remembering Joseph at Christmastime gives the impression that he and Jesus are on the same level. Do you understand where I'm coming from at all? I just believe with all my heart that God alone us worthy of our worship, reverence and honor. As I look at the Old Testament prophets, their message was to be listened to and obeyed, but they weren't to be praised. They were simply God's mouthpiece, His vessel.

This quote from D&C gives me, as a non-member a sense that Joseph Smith is deserving of worship, in the minds and hearts of LDS members: "Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any other man that has ever lived in it."

Justice, I understand WHAT you are saying, but I don't quite understand WHY you're saying it, other than you're being defensive. The thoughts/opinions/questions I post here don't come strictly from my perusal of this website. I live in Utah. I converse regularly with members of the LDS church. The question I asked was asked because it would truly seem as though Joseph Smith is put on the same level as Jesus Christ, and I believe (because of conversations I have had) that there are members who do put Joseph Smith on the same level. I'm not making it up, I'm not making assumptions; I understand that perhaps not every member feels that way, maybe even many members wouldn't feel that way. But it would appear as though some do; and they aren't afraid to admit it. As I mentioned, the words of the hymn that was posted, "Praise To The Man", when I read them as a non-member, bring up questions in my mind; when it mentions that Joseph holds the "keys", I'm assuming those are keys to the Kingdom of heaven (but I'm not sure, since I'm not a Member); in my non-member mind, Jesus is the only one who holds those keys. Thus, part of the reason for my question. As Moksha mentioned, "The majority [of LDS members] said they reserved their worship for God and Jesus, while a few did admit that they worshiped Joseph Smith." I have heard others echo this sentiment. My question was not meant as a jab, rather, a question.

Do you believe that God, alone, deserves our praise? or do you believe that there are men that are to be/can be worshipped as well? I was reading the lyrics posted to a LDS hymn entitled "Praise To The Man, " and it seems that Joseph Smith is worshipped. I've also seen a billboard that has his picture on it that says, "Praise to the man." Are other prophets praised/worshipped as well?

I lean toward that star-movement being a miracle of God. :) Really.

Gwen, thanks for your reply. One more question: did your plastic surgeon tell you the best age for her to have that done? thanks

Traveler: The comment that I made above--the one you said you really did not understand--was an attempt to clarify what it is that I believe. It was also to dispel the notion that you seem to have that I feel obedience to God is unnecessary. Sometimes I get the impression that you start certain threads for the specific purpose of combatting mine. If I create a thread about "Stumbling Blocks to your Faith", soon thereafter you start one about a correct view of faith. Your posts are condescending to me and to others, giving the impression that you are speaking from a higher plane of intelligence, that you have been given special revelation that no one else has--with comments like: "I understand [this] (but others do not)..." Do you not see a certain hypocrisy in your efforts to get others (mostly me) to understand that my belief system is flawed, and abhorrent to you (perhaps even to God) because I don't believe that to have eternal life I must keep the commandments perfectly--and yet you speak to me (and others) with an attitude of pride? My post was written to explain that my relationship with God is about trusting Him, taking Him at His Word that His ways are best, His laws are true and His commandments are for my benefit and safety--and then pursuing His ways with everything that is in me. Why is that confusing to you? And how is it any different from the concept of loyalty and faithfulness you've been describing? Is it confusing and different to you because I will also admit that I fail, sin, struggle, stumble and otherwise fall short of the glory of God? I would, in love, challenge you to look at the attitude with which you come to people, in order to get them to see what it is that you believe. I have to keep my attitude in check constantly: check my motives, trying to make sure that I am always motivated by LOVE. What I see in your posts is not loving or humble, and it stands in stark, bold contrast to the message you keep declaring. Repectfully, Lattelady

I said this in another post, but my belief tells me it is of utmost importance to BELIEVE God (trust Him) that HIS WAY is the BEST WAY and to PURSUE it with everything I've got--which is alot--the power of God working in me.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1 Believing in what I cannot see and putting my hope in it--that is faith. I have had that--faith--since I was a child. I have mentioned in another post that I have stumbled in my faith. My faith has wavered. I haven't totally and completely taken God at His word, and my relationship with Him (and every other person I'm in relationship with) suffers. When I don't FEED my faith with the TRUTH, then I am not faithFUL. I am not living out my faith. I still believe in God, and I love Him, but I struggle at times with doubts. It's like the man in one of the gospels said to Jesus, "I do believe, help my unbelief"--and Jesus answered his prayer, because of the faith he had. If, by "faithful" you mean "FULL OF FAITH"--unwavering in your faith, and altogether righteous,--I do think people can have faith and not be faithful. Those who are in relationship with God are all in the process of being sanctified--set apart and made holy. That is the goal, but we are not THERE yet. This subject is probably SUBJECT to be argued because of how people view the words "faith" and "faithful" and the concepts, definitions, and principles behind them.

My husband and I were up late talking last night about my Grandpa. He passed away last month and was--without a doubt--the most godly man I've ever known. I look at his faith (his unwavering trust in God) and was able to watch him over the 34 years of my life; I want to be like him. Having watched him, I know what stumbling blocks I've had because I know what Grandpa AVOIDED and PURSUED. He avoided worldly things. I've stumbled in my own faith because I've, more times than I'd care to admit, not guarded my heart. I've been tempted by the things that the world has to offer: flattery, material things, televisions shows and movies, etc. that don't uplift and put things in my mind that God deems impure. My Grandpa avoided those things--with a passion. "To the pure, all things are pure"--is something I think of when I think of him. He guarded his heart and raised his children admonishing them to do the same. He pursued the Bible; "Thy Word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against Thee" was a verse he lived out. My faith has, at times, suffered intensely for a lack of true HUNGERING for God's Word. Grandpa knew that his life's path would be made clear if he clung to God's Word. He believed God. I look at the legacy he left and think, "It almost seems unattainable!!" But I know it isn't, because it is the power of GOD that was at work in him. That same power lives in me, because of my faith--but I have to take God at His Word and believe Him, believe that His way is the best and pursue it! I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts--thanks to those who dare to be vulnerable about the fact that they stumble sometimes. I appreciate you.

I am forever grateful that my Heavenly Father made it possible, thru Christ's death for me to be called His daughter. I'm thankful that, while I was yet a sinner, He loved me. I know that none of us deserve His grace and mercy. Yet He offers it to all. I am so grateful that His love is unconditional. When I consider what it will be like to live with Him forever, it blows my mind! He is so good...so kind, so amazing, so forgiving. He chose ME! I will give Him all my worship. I can't believe that the God of Everything loves me and gave Himself to make a way for me to live with Him eternally and become like His Son. His love is unimaginable!

Sleepless3977, you mentioned in your last post that it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that Jesus bore our sins on the cross. I started a thread on this same subject that was later locked; if you read through some of my posts on that thread, I listed verses from the Bible about Christ being crucified for our sins.

Our church decided to put a cross on it, not on the structure itself but on our sign. For us it was partly to connect with others of like faith. As has been noted, the cross has become a universal symbol of the Mainline Christian Church. It was also a way of saying, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God to every man who believes...". (the gospel being the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The world has sought to remove God from view--I love having the cross in full view!! I am thankful that for at least the time being, it is still our right as Americans to display a symbol of our faith.