juliejalago

I thought I'd throw a thought into this discussion... If you accept that Jesus was divine by physical/genetic inheritance, a halfway-immortal God, so to speak, then wouldn't this divine inheritance have been passed on to any children he had sired, giving such children a measure of godly power? And as literal offspring of the Son of God, would not they have first rights to the Priesthood under the Patriarchal order that was traditional in the beginning of the world? I don't think Jesus had children. He was the ONLY begotten of the Father and I think that also means the Father had no other genetic/biological seed extending from Jesus. As for Jesus being married, I think a marriage would have detracted from the short time of his intense ministry. He was on a mission --the most important mission of all-- and his focus had to be on the saving work he had to perform. Regarding the thought that Jesus was married to the Church, I think that is symbolic. Yes, during his ministry on earth he was wholly devoted to the Church and still is. But is that to mean he will forever be denied a flesh and bone bride? I doubt it.

The problem with that is either I am going to get one man's opinion -- which could very well differ from the opinions of all the other bishops out there -- or else he is going to play it by the book and give me the standard answer that is SRM's favorite quip, "It's between you and the Lord." If everything is between us and the Lord, what do we need prophets for? But aside from that, I do appreciate your advice, Faerie. I know I need to include prayer with my study. My favorite quip? come on...I only say that when it really is between you and the Lord. ROFLOL! You're making my sides hurt. I keep waiting for the Church to make the GHI part of our official canon of scripture so that the members can actually have unbridled access to it. Seriously though, if the GHI is our standard of doctrine, why isn't it available to order through the distribution center so members can use it for personal study? Instead, it [the complete version] is given only to bishoprics and stake presidencies, with instructions not to allow it out of their hands, like it is top secret or something. I guess only the privileged few can be sure what "safe ground" is, according to that theory.

I could have done that, but I wanted to highlight particular quotes. I didn't post them all, you know.

There's nothing like all-day "morning" sickness to make one rethink her future pregnancy plans, lol. Just wait 'til how you feel during labor. You might be one of those women who are screaming at their husband, "What did you DO to me! This is all YOUR fault. STAY AWAY FROM ME!" in between contractions. That's why epidurals are also our friends. :) But seriously, I hope your stomach feels better soon!

BTW, thanks to "lurker" and Maureen for sharing the True to the Faith source. I was not aware of its existence. It makes it fairly clear what the current Church policy is, (although it does not address the former, harsher statements that are still printed in other sources, such as in the Achieving a Celestial Marriage student manual).

I agree. I am confident we will be held accountable to God for the care and manner in which we raise our children. Common sense should dictate which is better: to raise lots of children who receive little guidance and make poor choices that negatively affect future generations, or to raise fewer children who are well-trained and who grow up to become successful parents themselves. Of course, we should keep in mind that while no parent is perfect, there are a lot of horrible people out in the world that could do a worse botch-up job of raising one child than a righteous but slightly overextended mom might do with one or two more children than is comfortable. Nevertheless, we can't save every child from being born into evil, and the best approach would seem to be found in Mosiah 4:27. <span style='color:red'>"And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order." Maybe we aren't so far apart on this issue as I first suspected, because I would agree that "birth control is our friend" when applied in this sense.

estump: "Build solid homes," he said. "I don't care about the size, I care about the spirit." me: Are you sure he wasn't referring to the square footage and design of our houses? Thank you for posting that quote from President Hinckley. I had read it somewhere before, but I didn't have a reference or source to quote it here. It is comforting to know our current prophet trusts us to make these decisions. estump: And to your question about why we need prophets...I think this link (though dealing w/ Mohammad) gives a clear concise reason as to the needing of men and/or women more directly linked to God, than most people are. me: Thank you for the link. One point made in the link has been among my concerns all along. And that is...how do I know if I am deceiving myself with reason and rationalization? Can I trust myself to make the right decisions? Here is the "need" quote I am referring to: 2. THERE IS A NEED FOR AN INCONTROVERTIBLE AUTHORITY People differ in education, abilities, feelings and backgrounds; so they differ in their views. Many important issues concerning man's actions are highly controversial among individuals and groups. Ethics and morals are strongly disputed. Philosophic justifications can be found for almost any viewpoint. Rather than clarifying the issues so that one finds it possible to make a rational choice, the rational philosophies amplify the confusion. Reason and philosophy have failed as a solution for ethical and moral questions. The answers we seek must come from an incontrovertible authority to which individuals and groups should submit. That authority is God. me: This is why I seek confirmation of my opinions through the words of prophets. And when prophets differ in their counsel, then this becomes more difficult. But maybe it can be a good thing because it leads me to think harder and deeper than I otherwise would! estump: What you have to learn to decipher is opinion from prophecy. Not everything that flies out of a prophet's mouth is going to be orchestrated from God. me: You hit the nail on the head. But this is not easy to discern. Once in a while you get a prophet or leader who prefaces his statements with, "It is my opinion that..." or "It is my personal belief that...". But the quotes I have the most difficulty with have been official statements pronounced as Church policy. estump: Julie for centuries upon centuries women were thought of as NOTHING MORE than baby-factories. Do you seriously think that centuries of thinking was going to change, even w/ the enlightenment of the complete gospel? People take YEARS to change and years to listen to what Father's truest intentions are. me: I don't know why a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator couldn't overcome obstacles to truth such as the unenlightened age in which he was raised, but maybe it wasn't important for that time to evolve in their thinking just yet. I can see why people as a whole would revile against birth control when it was a new concept. People instinctively rebel against anything new, without thinking it through first. And the thought of controlling one's fertility was probably a mindblower. A generation or more of LDS have used birth control now and yet still maintain the importance of families, choosing to raise children in the Church with moral values -- evidence that perhaps we can be trusted to make these decisions after all. Thank you for your insights.

You are right; your opinions were expressed at my invitation. And although I think I disagree with you, I am glad you shared your thoughts. I want to test my beliefs and entertain other viewpoints, to learn where I firmly stand versus where I need to evolve. I apologize for any comments I made that might discourage someone from responding honestly.

Adam and Eve were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth, not us. Even if Adam and Eve represent all of us, the earth is replenished already! If every person has one child, they have multiplied themselves and thus, complied with the commandment. Yes, it is much more complicated than that. I have a hard time understanding though why any intelligent person would allow their personal decision about reproduction be dictated by something a former prophet said. It used to be that if you hoped to raise five children, you'd better have ten because so many children died in childhood. It's a much different world now. Yes, Adam and Eve were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. But if you have been sealed to your spouse in the temple, then you should also be very aware that this commandment was extended to you as well, and you covenanted to obey it. We are partners with God in providing bodies for our spirit brothers and sisters yet to come to this earth. It is a basic part of the Plan of Salvation. Who are you to declare that God has sent all the spirits to this Earth that he should? I do agree that the command to multiply and replenish did not specify numbers, although I personally would disagree that limiting yourself to one child fulfills this requirement, because one is not even enough to replace yourselves. The Proclamation to the World on the Family, (issued from our current First Presidency, and which I consider to be inspired) also makes clear that the command in Genesis applies to us. It states: <span style='color:purple'>"The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God's commandment to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. I am aghast that you are a bishop's wife and yet seem ignorant of this command. Maybe you are not really who you portray yourself to be, and I have just been naive to believe it. But if indeed your spouse is a bishop (in Idaho, no less) then I hope he does not agree with you, because if he shares your viewpoint then here is a perfect example of why I should not trust any advice on this matter from a bishop!

The problem with that is either I am going to get one man's opinion -- which could very well differ from the opinions of all the other bishops out there -- or else he is going to play it by the book and give me the standard answer that is SRM's favorite quip, "It's between you and the Lord." If everything is between us and the Lord, what do we need prophets for? But aside from that, I do appreciate your advice, Faerie. I know I need to include prayer with my study.

<span style='color:blue'>by the First Presidency (David O. McKay, Hugh B. Brown, N. Eldon Tanner):"Where husband and wife enjoy health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity, it is contrary to the teachings of the Church artificially to curtail or prevent the birth of children." by Elder George F. Richards (Publicly Endorsed by the First Presidency) The efforts on the parts of Eastern magazine writers to educate the people of the United States, particularly parents, to the doctrine that they limit the number of their offspring to three or four children, and how this can be accomplished, is both pernicious and an abomination in the sight of the Lord; and it robs both man and his Maker of their glory and increase.... My wife has borne to me fifteen children. Anything short of this would have been less than her duty and privilege. Had we received and obeyed the doctrine of three or four children to the home, we would have cut ourselves short of blessings more valuable to us than all the wealth of this world would be, were it ours. We might never have known in this life what our loss had been, but it would have been just as great as we now see it, and sometime we would know as we now know. Then consider the joy and value of life to others. What of our eleven children born to excess of the four to which such as these magazine writers would limit us? Can the value of such a mission and service be estimated? Will not these our children and their husbands, wives, and children, for generations after us, if they are duly appreciative, rise up and call us blessed forever and ever? by President Joseph Fielding Smith (Publicly Endorsed by the First Presidency) The first great commandment given to man and beast by the Creator was to "be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth;" and I have not learned that this commandment was ever repealed. Those who attempt to pervert the ways of the Lord, and to prevent their offspring from coming into the world in obedience to this great command, are guilty of one of the most heinous crimes in the category. There is no promise of eternal salvation and exaltation for such as they, for by their acts they prove their unworthiness for exaltation and unfitness for a kingdom where the crowning glory is the continuation of the family union and eternal increase which have been promised to all those who obey the law of the Lord. It is just as much murder to destroy life before as it is after birth, although man-made laws may not so consider it; but there is One who does take notice and his justice and judgment are sure. by Elder Orson F. Whitney (Publicly Endorsed by the First Presidency) I believe in large families, though I am aware, of course, that it is easier to feed, clothe, educate and rear a few children than many. But these considerations, so conclusive to some minds, have never had weight with me, contemplating as I do the eternal rather than the mere earthly phases of marriage and procreation. The only legitimate "birth control" is that which springs naturally from the observance of divine laws, and the use of procreative powers, not for pleasure primarily, but for race perpetuation and improvement. During certain periods—those of gestation and lactation—the wife and mother should be comparatively free to give her strength to her offspring; and if this involves some self-denial on the part of the husband and father, so much the better for all concerned. by President Ezra Taft Benson Conference Report, April 1969, Pg.12 The world teaches birth control. Tragically, many of our sisters subscribe to its pills and practices when they could easily provide earthly tabernacles for more of our Father's children. We know that every spirit assigned to this earth will come, whether through us or someone else There are couples in the Church who think they are getting along just fine with their limited families but who will someday suffer the pains of remorse when they meet the spirits that might have been part of their posterity. The first commandment given to man was to multiply and replenish the earth with children. That commandment has never been altered, modified, or canceled. The Lord did not say to multiply and replenish the earth if it is convenient, or if you are wealthy, or after you have gotten your schooling, or when there is peace on earth, or until you have four children. The Bible says, "Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: ". . . Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them. . ." (Ps. 127:3, 5.) We believe God is glorified by having numerous children and a program of perfection for them. So also will God glorify that husband and wife who have a large posterity and who have tried to raise them up in righteousness. by President Harold B. Lee CR1972Oct:63 [W]e declare it is a grievous sin before God to adopt restrictive measures in disobedience to God's divine command from the beginning of time to "multiply and replenish the earth." Surely those who project such measures to prevent life or to destroy life before or after birth will reap the whirlwind of God's retribution, for God will not be mocked. Conference Report, October 1943, Pg. 30 When the husband and wife are healthy, and free from inherited weaknesses and diseases that might be transmitted with injury to their offspring the use of contraceptives is to be condemned. by President Joseph F. Smith (See also the letter in the First Presidency section) Relief Society Magazine, Vol. 4, June 1917, Pg. 314 I regret, I think it is a crying evil, that there should exist a sentiment or a feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of their children. I think that is a crime wherever it occurs, where husband and wife are in possession of health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity. I believe that where people undertake to curtail or prevent the birth of their children that they are going to reap disappointment by and by. I have no hesitancy in saying that I believe this is one of the greatest crimes of the world today, this evil practice. Gospel Doctrine, Pg. 276 Those who have taken upon themselves the responsibility of wedded life should see to it that they do not abuse the course of nature; that they do not destroy the principle of life within them, nor violate any of the commandments of God. The command which he gave in the beginning to multiply and replenish the earth is still in force upon the children of men. Possibly no greater sin could be committed by the people who have embraced this gospel than to prevent or to destroy life in the manner indicated. We are born into the world that we may have life, and we live that we may have a fullness of joy, and if we will obtain a fullness of joy, we must obey the law of our creation and the law by which we may obtain the consummation of our righteous hopes and desires -- life eternal.

Ok, I am not sure if you are joking or not. B) Are you saying that you don't believe we are still commanded to multiply and replenish the earth? If you think the world is already overpopulated, zero population growth still wouldn't solve the problems of unequal distribution of resources. I'm not even going to say more because I can't decide how serious you are, being a bishop's wife and all.

This is obviously a non-issue with you. For me, this question is not that easy to answer. Do I believe God can reveal his will regarding what is moral conduct to "other men" who will then tell me? Only if by "other men" you mean prophets of God. Yes, God can reveal whatever he chooses to his Prophets. Do I believe all the things Prophets have said come from God? Obviously some things are just their opinions. But IMO a prophet's opinion should still carry a lot of weight, because they are a lot closer to God than most of us.BTW, God has revealed a lot about what you should (or shouldn't) do with your genitals. For example, commandments against premarital and extramarital sex, masturbation, homosexuality, etc.

This is logical and makes sense to me. There are realities and limits placed upon us that aren't always overcome by faith and good intentions. I just don't understand why this didn't make sense to some of our prophets. Their answer seemed to be, Have faith and the Lord will provide a way. Easy to say! I do know that sometimes my logic alone isn't enough to understand the ways of the Lord. That's why I ask myself these questions. Is it that I lack faith, and that if I were like Nephi I would go and do what the Lord had commanded? If indeed I am commanded not to practice birth control (note: I am only saying IF) then I face a dilemma because of two things: 1) I have a desire to do what is pleasing to the Lord and to have an eternal family unit. 2) I do not have the will or the faith or the desire or the practical means(whatever you want to call it) to multiply without limits. I refuse, and therefore I would be in a state of rebellion, in conflict with #1. Obviously I am biased in that I hope to find evidence to convince myself that I can achieve desire #1 without having to multiply like a rabbit. But I need to really be convinced or else doubts will plague me that maybe I am sinning. Perhaps it is just the ole devil knowing how to undermine my happiness, but I seem to have to revisit this issue every so often because any peace I once had regarding the matter fades away when I come across certain prophetic quotes.

I'm not sure why that is pertinent information. Must I have a label in order for you to share your opinion? But in order to assure you that my motive is only to increase my understanding of truth, my status is (and always has been) an active member of the Church, who is trying to resolve inconsistencies in my belief system. I hope to strengthen my testimony by facing doubts and concerns head on, rather than being afraid to investigate truths.