• Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by Seminarysnoozer

  1. Thanks for your comments. I have seen some description (exact references I am not remembering at the moment) that our inheritance is full to begin with and it is ours to lose. By even continuing with the plan in the premortal realm, by being faithful either in an exceedingly valiant way or not so valiant way, we all chose to hold onto our potential, our birthright. The choice of something less than 100% of what God has to offer is by way of losing what we have or veering off the path we are on. Even Lucifer fell away from the original path but before that he was in line to receive a full inheritance, it was his to lose. He chose to trade it for something else. I think of the story of Esau selling his birthright to Jacob. He despised his birthright, he had it then he didn't want it. Genesis 25; "34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright." D&C 93; "21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; 22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn. 23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;" So, we have the potential to be as the Firstborn and receive of that inheritance, unless we defile that inheritance or do not follow the commandments thus making a choice away from our original choice in the beginning to be with the Father. That potential was there in the beginning as we were with the Father from the beginning. We receive the fullness of truth line upon line but the trajectory starts fullly pointed at God's glory and is only there to be lost or fall short.
  2. Agreed but there are also these two huge gates we have to pass through, the first and second estates. Thus by the agency given in the premortal life we are placed in this sphere. The two estate gates are both launching pads for progression and after the second estate is over it is more like boarding a train that does not change tracks, no further forks in the road. The two gates is what, likely, produces the three parts of the host of heaven, those that fail the first estate test, those that pass the first estate and fail the second estate test and those that pass both estate tests. Those three parts of the host of heaven generate three distinct spheres. Here we go back to that word glorified. Can man be glorified and remain man? As we fell, did we also fall in terms of agency?
  3. Is this one of those rhetorical questions that I so love? (I guess I just used one myself) Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual Chapter 6; "4. God gave us agency in the premortal life (see Moses 4:3; D&C 29:36)." D&C 29; " 36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;" Moses 4: " 3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;"
  4. Again, I applaud you for expressing the beauty of this world along with our Beloved Prophets. There is a time and place for everything. The beauty of pre-school is not so beautiful if a bunch of 40 year olds were the students. The variety and setting of this world was made for this test and this world. It composes the agency before us. Eventually though we have to choose, moving onto bigger stewardships or playing with crayons forever. God does as He has always done for a reason, it is what brings the most joy. I doubt we would arrive there and say, 'I've thought about this and I would prefer to try it my own way'. There is only one way not a variety of ways, the path is single, narrow and straight, not many and winding. You are comparing the joy in the variety of food and the variety of what we do to the need to have varied characters. I don't see those as the same thing at all. We were talking about talents, characteristics, personalities etc. I am not sure why you link that with the variety of trees, food, colors, whatever. That doesn't make sense to me. If so and so enjoys music, they don't have to be only one of 70% of people that enjoy music (or whatever the number is) to make it enjoyable. Why would it matter to you if everyone around you enjoyed what you enjoy to the same level that you do? Would you be disappointed if everyone understood the theory of relativity as well as Albert Einstein? Would that ruin the variety you enjoy? Would it disappoint you if everyone could compose music as well as Beethoven? Or play soccer as well as Pele? If so, then by definition, you delight in the deficiencies. For me, I would love to be surrounded by people that can understand the theory of relativity as well as Einstein or play the piano as well as Beethoven or play soccer as well as Pele. To me that is beautiful in that there is no deficiency, not that there is no variety. I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle. I don't understand the desire to have some people not like something as much as another for the sake of "variety" especially in a place where there is all time to reach the fullness. 100% of something is 100% (talking about talents, characteristics and personalities that one would describe as good). For variety to exist there has to be something less than 100%. Lets say God and Christ and anyone else in the Highest level of the Celestial Kingdom are given a pop quiz on any topic. Would you venture to say there would be a variety of scores on the test? I don't think so, I think they would all score 100%. If you find that boring or unlivable then I am not sure what you are striving for. Maybe it is because I don't understand the desire to strive for something less than 100%, less than being like our Heavenly Father in every way. I think that is what is meant by having an eye single to His glory and not some lesser glory.
  5. Of course I have, there was agency given for the first estate test and they all chose that they would want to live with our Heavenly Father as we all did.
  6. Yes, those things are included in the having faith in Christ and acting on it, if you want to play with semantics. I thought we were having a conversation about what is required from us. But now I am not sure what we are talking about. A child that dies within one hour of life and makes it into the Celestial Kingdom does not NEED light an enlightenment in this life to pass the second estate test (in this life) The child does need the atonement and accepting it which we all did by passing the first estate test. Now, we are talking about the second estate test ... I think.
  7. Nobody said YOU were bound anywhere. We also weren't really talking about 'this' creation as much as what happens after this life. We can all love and value this life for what it is. I think many, even in our religion, don't believe we fell very far. However far we fell is how great the saving grace of the atonement is. They are inversley proportional. We cannot serve God and Mammon and the same time. So, either we serve the fallen state or the risen state. Either we believe 'I am this way cause that is how God created me' or we believe 'I am this way cause this is the temporary stewardship God gave me for this second estate test that we will be rested from when the test is over so we can go onto a glorious state'. Spencer Kimball; "Those who have lived after the manner of the world shall go to a telestial kingdom whose glory is as the stars." Neal A. Maxwell; "Each post-resurrection kingdom is a kingdom of glory that is far better than this world we now know. Even "the glory of the telestial" will surpass "all understanding" (D&C 76:89)" Bruce McConkie; "That glory granted the inhabitants of the lowest kingdom of glory is called telestial glory. In the infinite mercy of a beneficent Father it surpasses all mortal understanding, and yet it is in no way comparable to the glory of the terrestrial and celestial worlds. Telestial glory is typified by the stars of the firmament, and "as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world" (D. & C. 76:81-112; 1 Cor. 15:41), meaning that all who inherit the telestial kingdom will not receive the same glory." ... as opposed to the other kingdoms where people do receive of the same glory pertaining to that kingdom. ...varied vs same. James Talmage; "We learn further that the inhabitants of this kingdom are to be graded among themselves, comprising as they do the unenlightened among the varied opposing sects and divisions of men, and sinners of many types, whose offenses are not those of utter perdition: "For as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another -- some of Christ, and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant." (Articles of Faith, pp.407 - 408)" ... meaning they accept all the variety of worship out there, it doesn't matter so long as one has faith, a little of this a little of that, variety is good, cover all the bases type attitude.
  8. Do you think it is possible, even though we are limited in our ability to understand, that God has a whimsical nature, that He may do thinks "just to be different"? I think we are told that God does what has always been done and that He doesn't vary His course. Mormon 9; "9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing? 10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles." D&C 3; " 2 For God doth not walk in crooked paths, neither doth he turn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round."
  9. We develop our unique talents while in this life so that we may be worthy of greater stewardship. These "unique talents" are on loan, as the parable of the ten talents suggests. They are not self but stewardships. We do not own them. I think that is the first mistake in considering unique traits, it is an inherintly selfish view. I have this while the other person does not. It is beautiful in the sense that is provides us with the opportunity to learn about charity. When there are deficiencies then we need to fill in those deficiencies with love and carring. The beauty in the deficiency is that we can provide for others what they cant do for their self, it is a chance for service. Those are some of the things we need to learn here to appreciate the value of the gifts we receive in the next life. explains that the temple is a place to make covenants with God and that the Celestial room represents what it might be like to be in Gods presence. While there, the one place in this world that most represents being in Gods presence in the Celestial Kingdom, as much as really possible in this world, go ahead and think of all the self expression and uniqueness that is shown there. Think of the variety in the people that exists there and how they express their variety (we are talking about people not the surroundings). How many various things that one would describe as the variety of the world that is found to be beautiful is expressed there. Contrast that with the worlds drive for uniqueness. Body modification, tattos and piercings are an example of that. 25% of kids (Yes I am old so I can call them kids) under the age of 30 undergo some kind of body modification. According to most psychologist, among the many reasons they do this is for self-expression, to express their unique circumstances and views on life, their unique characteristics. Stephen Franzoi, a social psychologist who studies physical attractiveness and body esteem at Marquette University, agrees that young adults now view bod-mod as a mainstream form of self-expression. But savor the paradox: "Interestingly enough," he points out, "the desire to express your own unique qualities, is, in one sense, an act of conformity. It's a social norm that an increasing number of young adults are conforming to." In other words, the "norm" of the world is to try to be uniquely different. That is what the carnal world strives for. The other thing to realize is that we are dual beings, both body and spirit. The body is of "nature" it is natural or natural man or carnal. We are both while in this world, both natural man and spirit. As Elder Bednar pointed out in conference it is what we choose one over the other that is the test. In the Hymn, O God The Eternal Father, Christ is described as " With no apparent beauty,That man should him desire" taking that from Isaiah. Christ, in other words, did not stand out in the crowd. He did not try to stand out in the crowd. He gave no thought as to the clothes he was going to where etc. He did not try to attract people by his "apparent beauty" but by his love, his inner beauty. I agree that this life is beautiful in its creation and set up. I dont think I can say it any better than The Folk Prophet did, that we start out with unique set of talents and even before this life we did as well. There is no arguement to that. But that may be different than where we are heading. The likely result is that there may not be very many people that could call their self "one" with God in the end. So, probably the majority of people will fall in love with their varied selves and remain that way. That is not to say it is evil. The Telestial Kingdom is not evil, it is a Kingdom of glory and yet it is filled with variety as one star differs from another. It still wont be as varied as here because they all will have to at least conform to the requirements needed to be in the presence of the Holy Ghost.
  10. When we ask ourselves who we really are and then we answer "I am a child of God" we have already come to the conclusion that who we are is dependent on someone else. One of the biggest problems I see is when people use the terms individual and unique interchangeably. It is possible to be an individual and yet be exactly like another. However, one cannot be unique and be exactly like another. I am not, in any way, disagreeing with the idea of being an individual, but I am disagreeing with the passionate drive to remain a unique individual. There is a difference. A person that seeks to be a "unique" individual wants to stand out of the crowd for very selfish reasons. When there is a pain from not being unique enough, like somene wheres the same dress to church that you are wearing, for example, than that is a desire that pulls away from Celestial lack of uniqueness. One can be an individual without having to be unique. Is there any trait that God has that Christ does not also possess or will soon possess? I didn't ask if they had different roles, like father and son etc. just traits. As Christ compares to God, we hope that some day we would be able to say the same thing about ourselves in comparing to God. That we might have His image in our countenance and that we might be one with them, hardly distinguishable and yet individuals that would act and speak and do and have the same ability and talents exactly like anyone else in that realm, 100% God-like. Variabiliy would have to entail something less than 100%.
  11. We were talking about what was needed to receive the reward and to pass the test. Now you are extending that to the reward itself. Do we need the reward? Yes. Okay. Then again, those that die before the age of 8 do not receive the laying on of hands while in this life for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Since you pulled my phrase out of context you applied it to a lot more than what I was talking about. We were talking about the need to know something as empirical evidence, to know it at that level. My response to that was that we do not need to know it at that level in this life, we can know it via faith and the confirmation via the Holy Ghost etc. Now if you want to argue that works and Holy Ghoost are empirical evidence so be it. I am sure Traveler will already make that arguement.
  12. Yes, that is why I said 'and acting on it' which is works. But even then he said we need more than that.
  13. You used the words, 'that is not all we need' in reference to me saying all we need is faith (in Christ, implied) and acting on that faith. In other words, I interpret that to mean that there is more that we need to bring to the table. You said receiving light and knowledge is a consequence to faith and acting on faith. If that is the case then it is not "needed" to pass this test in this life, because those rewards could certainly be received after this life. The receiving of the reward is not needed. That is all I was saying. I was not trying to uncouple the reaping of what is sown but that state that which was told to Joseph Smith in essense that if one struggles all their life and simply endures in faith till the end it is not lost as the result does not have to be realized in this life, it will be rewarded in the end. Psalm 30; "‘Weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning" - the light could come in the morning - after this life, therefore not needed to pass the test but as a result of passing the test.
  14. We are talking about where we are going, not where we currently are. I don't disagree with each of us being unique and working through our individual agency. Satan wanted to jump through the end without having the process to get there. He didn't understand that it takes the indiviudal through there agency to reach that state of being, that it can't simply be bestowed on a person. He thought he could get it without the effort. Tha doesn't meant the goal is evil. His method was flawed. He wants what we are still in line to receive. Now that he is cast out and miserable he wants to make as many of us miserable as he can and tries to convince us that it isn't worth the effort. He wants us to remain in our carnal state. He wants to convince us that this mortal state is where its at and not to see beyond it. The plan involves steps to reach the end of the arrow head, so-to-speak. Yes, we are all uniquely different and our Heavenly Father loves who we are currently but also wants us to have a fullness of joy some day and not remain in a state that is less than our potential. He wants us to have it by working through our agency and choosing it. Unlike the nasty borg reference, it is by choice not by force. Why would anyone choose to submit their will to God by choice, willingly and with all their heart, might, mind and strength loosing their self in the process? Knowing why is the basis of many strong testimonies of the plan of happiness. The corruption of the body after the Fall is what sets up this process in which DNA mutates and changes, different from the original creation. That in and of itself is not evil because that is part of the process of living in the world. But we do not have to be of the world. We say to Our Heavenly Father, we do not want to remain in this awful state, we would rather take on the flesh of Christ, His perfect flesh and so we abide by the covenants, we take of His flesh and blood weekly with that symbolic gesture, "that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son", and Christ's act of losing the carnality (symbolically) "that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them". We too will "shed" this body and all the fallen characteristics that come with it in following Christ. Elder Bednar explained in conference; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41). The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ." Definition of propensity; "an inclination or natural tendency to behave in a particular way" ... To act in a 'particular way' as opposed to someone else' particular way. This provides an idea of where we are heading not where we are currently.
  15. But I think you are saying so as part of the bigger picture which I don't disagree with. As far as this life though, it is sufficient enough to make it a desire of the heart even if it isn't made a reality. A testimony of this is in describing those that die before the age of 8 and what happens to them. Certainly a child that dies after one hour of life in this world did not have much time to acquire "light and knowledge" and that being "key" as you are describing. This life is simply the time to prepare to meet God which sometimes takes the form of enduring till the end or having patience and faith. That may be the test for some, to simply not "fall asleep on the watch". Or to hold Zion where you are. I think your description of acquiring light and knowledge is not across the board for everyone. Maybe it is your calling in life, maybe it is mine (and that is why I spend so much time on this forum as well as studying scriptures attending church etc.) The main goal is to first have faith, then repent and then life by the following ordinances of the gospel. We will not be judged on some universal scale that measures the quantity of light and knowledge obtained in this life but we will be judged by some unique to our circumstance scale that only God can use in His understanding of all the variables we face in this world including how thick the veil of forgetfulness is in our way. Where much is given much is required. So, the trajectory is a more important "key" than is the maping of what point along the trajectory one finds oneself. One can reach the Celestial Kingdom by being in the right trajectory while still flying through the opening of the cannon the same as one who is miles away from the cannon, so-to-speak, so long as they are on the same trajectory. President Uchtdorf; "Patience means accepting that which cannot be changed and facing it with courage, grace, and faith. It means being “willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon [us], even as a child doth submit to his father.”8 Ultimately, patience means being “firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord”9 every hour of every day, even when it is hard to do so. In the words of John the Revelator, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and … faith [in] Jesus.”10 Patience is a process of perfection. The Savior Himself said that in your patience you possess your souls.11 Or, to use another translation of the Greek text, in your patience you win mastery of your souls.12 Patience means to abide in faith, knowing that sometimes it is in the waiting rather than in the receiving that we grow the most. This was true in the time of the Savior. It is true in our time as well, for we are commanded in these latter days to “continue in patience until ye are perfected.” D&C 67; " 13 Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now, neither the ministering of angels; wherefore, continue in patience until ye are perfected."
  16. I like your last sentence, "I don't think Heavenly Father is different." One should ponder the instruction of Christ in this matter, Luke 9"23 ¶And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." Or even Neal Maxwell, "The end rule is “according to [our] desires … shall it be done unto [us]” (D&C 11:17), “for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts” (D&C 137:9; see also Alma 41:5; D&C 6:20, 27). One’s individual will thus remains uniquely his. God will not override it nor overwhelm it. Hence we’d better want the consequences of what we want! Another cosmic fact: only by aligning our wills with God’s is full happiness to be found. Anything less results in a lesser portion (see Alma 12:10–11). The Lord will work with us even if, at first, we “can no more than desire” but are willing to “give place for a portion of [His] words” (Alma 32:27). A small foothold is all He needs! But we must desire and provide it. So many of us are kept from eventual consecration because we mistakenly think that, somehow, by letting our will be swallowed up in the will of God, we lose our individuality (see Mosiah 15:7). What we are really worried about, of course, is not giving up self, but selfish things—like our roles, our time, our preeminence, and our possessions. No wonder we are instructed by the Savior to lose ourselves (see Luke 9:24). He is only asking us to lose the old self in order to find the new self. It is not a question of one’s losing identity but of finding his true identity! Ironically, so many people already lose themselves anyway in their consuming hobbies and preoccupations but with far, far lesser things. Ever observant, in both the first and second estates, consecrated Jesus always knew in which direction He faced: He consistently emulated His Father: “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise” (John 5:19), for “I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning” (3 Ne. 11:11)." What I am saying is that if one aligns their will with God and as Neal Maxwell says this is only really a desire in this life as we don't really have full capacity to do it all in this life then we will find our true identity which is to have the capacity of "ALL". If Bob ends up with "ALL" and Sarah ends up with "ALL", they each have 100% as individuals then how do they differ? To desire (again even if it is not achievable in this life because yes we are all in a fallen state of variable differences with different talents and abilities) to have ALL that God has will open the mind to the "FULLNESS" of God but to those that harden their heart to that idea (they don't like that idea) they will receive a lesser portion because that is what they want. Alma 12; "10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full. 11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell." Tell me just one thing that you think you have or someone has in this life that you would call a uniquely identifying good trait that God does not also have - can you name one person who has some good trait above what God has? If you cannot and if you truley believe that we can have ALL that God has then those that eventually receive ALL that God has (no matter how long that might take) will have no uniquely identifying features different than God. Yes, they will still be individuals with their own wills but it will be matched with the will of God and the mind of God without anything lacking in any way such that we can call it ALL that God has. ________ Just because someone could have the same set of desires passions talents etc doesn't mean they will all be 'singing the same note'. If all that Christ did was the will of the Father then why didn't God just do it Himself? Even though Christ' will is matched with the Father and even though His capacity is now one with the Father doesn't mean they are doing the exact same thing at the same time like synchronized swimmers. But because they have the same passions and desires and traits then whenever Christ does something He can share it with God, He can truly do it FOR Him. We have all seen in various circumstances in this life that when one portrays a certain accumen for an activity that another does not equally share then it is not so much appreciated as it is with those that share the same accumen. For example, I played a lot of soccer, in High Scool and in College and so when I watch a professional soccer game I can see the intricacies of the sport, the one-two passes, the ability to play to space and the flow of the game along with all my fellow soccer players who have equal experience in the game. Whereas, my husband who has never played the sport but played American football doesn't have the same experience when he watches a soccer game. So, when I watch American football with him I have a different experience than he does, I don't get as much out of it as he does. However, if we both had the same capacity (at least in understanding and experience - like me truly understanding what it was like for him to play American football, for example) for both sports then we could equally enjoy both sports to their fullest. Apply that idea to all areas of enjoyment and now our capacity for joy is truly FULL. Again, go ahead and try to name one uniquely identifying feature of any individual that is good that God does not also have the capacity for in understanding it as that person. If one gives 10% of all the talents to 10 different people and gives 100% of the talents to two people then the two one would call indistinguishable (as far as talents go) whereas the 10 one would call a variety. Don't fall in love with the "10% world" when you can have 100%, that is Alma's message, Christ' message also in losing self to follow God's will as well as Neal A. Maxwell and many others.
  17. Thank you for your kind remarks. I, too, find you to be a great friend on this forum because you are willing to go the rounds with me without it being any kind of personal attack but rather attacking the topic itself. Thanks. That being said ... I am not so sure that the test we face is to find infallible truth. How do you couch that with faith? I think above the test of infallible truth is the test of faith. Faith is the first test and principle of the gospel. If all we have is faith and act on it then that is good enough. We do not have to have more than that, like some empirical means that is reproducable by all because we know that some are simply not capable of understanding these things. Christ himself said that, and that is the reason He spoke in parables because those that have the ability to understand will gain more but those that don't will be even more confused by it. If that is the nature of Christ gospel then I don't see how it can also be one that we would say there has to exist empirical evidence, reproducable by all or infallible truth that nobody can argue against while in this life. At least, I think, that is true for this life. Of course, when the veil is removed the truth would fall into that category as infallible truth as we know that every knee shall bend, everyone will then have a complete understanding. I think you have to also ask if one believes there is infallible truth then how does that fit with the purpose of the veil. We know there is a veil and a purpose for the veil. How important is the purpose of the veil? Not so important that having infallible truth is more important than that in this life? Knowing the purpose of this life changes our view on the need to understanding things fully. We have faith, we have testimonies, we have the spirit, we have the still small voice, we have spiritual discernment, all of which are ways around empirical evidence. If we had empirical evidence then we wouldnt need those things or at least those things should be sought after in a lesser way if empirical evidence is available. For me, I will keep spiritual discernment and faith higher on the list of useful tools while in this life. Empirical evidence and infallible truths were the tools of the first estate test and we all proved to be able to use those tools wisely. We don't need to be tested with empirical evidence again.
  18. This is what I think of when I hear "many words"; Joseph Smith History; " 5 Some time in the second year after our removal to Manchester, there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, “Lo, here!” and others, “Lo, there!” Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist. 6 For, notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased; yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued—priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions." Then it was later described to him this way; "19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” In other words (not many), we don't want to dance around the truth or pretend to have the truth, the truth is direct and in preparation for the second coming. The warning is related to the whole reason for the restoration of the gospel, to prepare for the second coming. Introduction of the Book of Mormon, "Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is His revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the Second Coming of the Messiah."
  19. I think you're right. ... if I was a computer I would be frozen in an endless loop.
  20. Could any form of wickedness be associated with a Kingdom of glory? Can one have glory and wickedness at the same time? Can we be wicked and qualify for the eternal presence of even the Holy Ghost? I think we are taught that wickedness causes us to not be in the presence of the Holy Ghost. So, the only people that are currently here that may not end up in some state of happiness are those that become the sons of perdition. But liars and murders and all those that make up the Telestial Kingdom will be in a state of happiness. I think every knee will bend, every one will have been paid in full by the time they reach their respective Kingdom of Glory, whether it is through the atonement vs time in spirit prison until they are fully repentant and suffered, I don't think it would be possible to receive a glorified body of any kind and still carry the burden of wickedness. ... keep in mind we all here are righteous, we all kept the first estate, we all believe in Christ and God's plan, just some of us have forgotten about our beliefs but they will recall soon enough.
  21. For this life variety is needed, it is what sets up the tests we face and the struggles we face. It is as a result of the Fall of Adam and Eve that we have variability as part of the mortal condition. God wants us to be one with Him. The purpose of the atonement is to give man in all his variety a chance to become one with God. It is a way out of the variety. Gods path has always been narrow and straight. There is not a variety of ways to reach God. It may start out varied but the end path is like the tip of arrow head, it becomes more and more of one type. God wants us to have all that He has. If we are so fortunate to have all in the next life then one persons "all" would not look any different than another person's "all". Let me ask you, is there any talent or ability that God does not possess? Is there any unique trait that is good that God does not also possess. Let's say someone has a love for music and a talent for playing the piano. Would you say that the person could possibly love music or have a talent for playing the piano more than God? Variability in talents is as a result of deficiencies. The reason we say one person has a talent for something is because others do not have it. It would be strange, for example, if I said I have a talent for breathing. It isn't a "talent" if everybody does it. In a place where there is no deficiencies, where everyone has all then nobody would even say "I have a talent for music" or "I have a talent for baking cookies" or whatever it is. Nobody there would say, "I am a cook" or "I am a soccer player" anymore than someone here would say "I am a shirt wearer". We could still have different assignments and therefore take on different roles but there would be no reason to box someone into an assignment over another because that is "what they do". A person that has all talents and is all knowing is called God, that is the only label for such a being and there is only one (type of) God. If one likes variety, there is a place for that described in the scriptures as 'one star differing from another'. But as for the Celestial Kingdom it is described as one body as the Sun is one body.
  22. I agree and I will take it even a step further, our body is on loan as well. The body will turn to dust in the end from where it came. So, in that way people can fall in love with worldly things by falling in love with self and carnal traits (traits afforded by the body). In other words, if someone is born with a genetic affinity towards science (that is the way their brain is wired), that is only on loan, not self. Or, if they are born with a body that grows to be 7'2'' and becomes a famous and wealthy professional basketball player, that is also on loan and not self but a temporary trait that turns to dust as the body will return to its original state, dust. Or if a person is vain about their thick curly brown hair, for example, that is falling in love with things of this world that will turn to dust that are just on loan. This is why humility is so important, to not fall into the trap of thinking these "talents" or traits on loan, that are really just stewardships, are somehow owned. They are not owned, we are only temporary stewards of these things. This is why Christ used so many parables about stewards and stewardship and servants, laborers etc, none of whom owned anything they were working with. In the end we may be given these things, like the parable of the ten talents but for now we have to maintain the attitude that we are simply stewards of everything given. If these things were owned and we were not stewards then there could not be the statement, where much is given much is required, because those things wouldn't be "given" they would just be self.
  23. The only reference to the word variety in the talk you referenced was this "Family and church government would be sensitive to this principle in a variety of ways." So, I am not sure why you referenced the article in the first place. Can you show me some other references where our "Heavenly Father delights in variety". I think one has to distinguish that from having many kinds of things. Variety is different than having many kinds or types of animals, plants etc. Where does it say that God delights in the variety of man? He only made one man and one woman according to our scripture. That does not sound like variety to me.
  24. (This comment isn't aimed at you, just using your statement as a starting point for my comment) The flip side of that is that some people make poverty a virture. My parents do that. I grew up in an area of San Diego where there is a lot of disparity in wealth, next to La Jolla for those that know San Diego and the ward area is large, it encompased 4 high schools. So, my parents, while I was growing up, would tell me that wealth is a curse and essentially a sign of unrighteousness. I think that is the opposite extreme. Wealth is not a sin or a sign of loving money more than anything else, necessarily. The love of money is the problem and that cannot be judged by the size of one's house or how many cars one owns etc. Growing up with that disparity and growing up in very humble setting (qualifying for almost every government assistance program, for example) and now having what most would call wealth, I would say that just as many poor as rich focus on money in this country. They focus on the fact that they don't have it but want it or they focus on the fact that they have it and want more. So, just being poor alone is not a virtue. The problem is not something any of us can easily detect from an outward perspective, it is a passion of the heart problem which only God can judge. At the same time, I believe if one has wealth they should not flaunt it, they should not be outwardly in the "spacious building". If one flaunts their wealth it only assists the calling attention to it more, either for their self or others. This is true even when the 'calling attention' to is results in negative comments - 'did you see the size of that diamond on her finger?' etc. The eye of envy would stil be called a love of money even if one doesn't have it. This is why I refuse to read or subscribe to magazines or watch television shows that promote the following of celebrities and what they wear or what they own. The culture of; 'Did you see how much she paid for that house? Did you see what she wore to the awards ceremony? ... contributes to the love of money as well.
  25. The quote, if one reads it carefully, does not really say when those things will be given to the saints. It is just saying if you desire any of those things and do so while being guided by the Holy Ghost then the Lord is willing to give those things according to the promises made through his Apostles and Prophets - in other words, the promises made by covenants, all things will be given to the faithful. Receiving everything God has eventually, in other words, requires a desire for it but that doesn't necessarily mean desiring it for use in this life except under the circumstances by which the Holy Ghost guides it for this life. Otherwise, he is talking about receiving all God has in the next life.