Seminarysnoozer
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Posts posted by Seminarysnoozer
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Ah yes, the "you have a lack of understanding" argument. Fit's nicely with the "I'm smarter than you" and the "you clearly aren't as educated as me" arguments. Well, that settles it then.
If that is how you take that comment, then I am sorry. That was not my intention.
You are repeatedly saying to me that I am discussing something that has no relevence or purpose. You keep saying that it doesn't matter. That is where that comment came from, that you lack the understanding of why it is important to some. It has nothing to do with intelligence more with perspective.
Maybe you have been blessed with very little if any life long battles. For the rest of us, we have to keep the battle going because if we drop our gaurd, the natural man slips back into control, waiting in the background to take center stage because she has never left. So long as she is in the wings, we are okay, even if she (natural man) never leaves (never gotten rid of) during this life.
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What does that have do do with anything? Spiritual nature. Carnal nature. No more disposition to do evil is no more disposition to do evil. Becoming a new person is becoming a new person. Overcoming the desire to sin is overcoming the desire to sin.
Who cares if it's technically our spirits or our bodies where the desire stems from? You're overly obsessed with a meaningless point.
It has to do with what we are talking about because you suggest that we can somehow change the nature of our body. Yes in some things we can. The whole nature vs nuture thing comes to mind. The nurture stuff, yes we can change, but the genetics, "nature" is something harder to change that simply might be the "thorn in the flesh" that remains throughout ones life.
You are right, what we care about is the spiritual self. I think that was my point too. In not focusing on changing the physical nature so much then the focus is on changing the spiritual self.
It is not a meaningless point to someone who feels guilty that there body has a genetic predisposition to alcoholism, to same sex attraction, to eating a lot of food when stressed, to sleeping longer hours than most - we can go on and on. They can be everything right and winning the battle, there disposition is to not give into those passions and yet they continue throughout one's life. The goal isn't necessarily to make the inclination, the passion that comes from the hormones, the brain's wiring etc disapear but to maintain control over it and endure till the end through the battle so that one day we can be numbered with those that have no disposition to do evil.
King Benjamin spoke about this; "29 And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them.
30 But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish. And now, O man, remember, and perish not."
The battle pertaining to these things is a life long battle for most. We have to remember to keep the battle going even when we think 'all is well'. We can never really put it behind us in this life.
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Because anyone who isn't familiar with that quote already and is attempting to discuss "Mormons and Gays" is an uninformed fool. So it doesn't need to be quoted.
I think I've said this earlier...but I'll restate if so. The "choose how to respond to them" is the component in question. My entire contention is that doing one's darndest to rid oneself of any imperfect feelings (albeit over time and through constant, lifelong vigilance) is the only proper choice to make. Any other choice but to fight the good fight and never give up in that regard is to give in to it, and constitutes a sinful choice and action.
Your contention is misplaced. Nobody here, including me, is saying not to fight the good fight and to never give up. We all agree with that. You don't have to keep saying that that is your argument. I have never disagreed with that in fact have written several times that we must endure till the end.
It is your continued use of words like getting "rid" of any imperfect feelings that shows a lack of understanding of our current condition as mortal beings. The purpose of this life was to live with imperfectness, to live in the world but to not be of the world. Our goal is not to get rid of the challenges of life even if they come from our own body or own imperfect brain but to control them, to not give into them, to manage them and to choose spiritual influences over those carnal influences when they are in contention.
We don't want bad inclinations to become bad habits or it might become part of our spiritual nature.
My current body is only part of the temporary me, it is part of my stewardship that we sometimes call self but not the real me. My spiritual self is the real me. When people take in the characteristics of the body as self then it becomes part of their spiritual nature. That doesn't have to happen. It can be avoided without necessarily getting "rid" of the carnal nature while here. A same-sex attraction that is kept at bay because of "fighting the good fight" and having spiritual control over the carnal will not continue into the next life. But if one gives into any carnal passion it may continue as part of our spiritual nature, the more we love earthly treasures (the corrupted body being an earthly thing) the more our spiritual nature changes into a carnal nature. All along, though, the nature of the body may remain that way throughout one's life without it becoming part of the spiritual nature.
I don't think you would say that someone who dies with Alzheimers disease has a spirit nature that reflects that nature of the body or one who dies with trisomy 21 carries those traits and nature with them in the spirit. The spiritual lessons learned from enduring those challenges carry through but the actual challenge (the carnal trait) does not.
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Since I had a few minutes before hitting bed, I thought I'd post some quotes in support of my points:
At the same time, let us not justify ourselves in a casual effort. Let us not be content to retain some disposition to do evil. Let us worthily partake of the sacrament each week and continue to draw upon the Holy Spirit to root out the last vestiges of impurity within us. I testify that as you continue in the path of spiritual rebirth, the atoning grace of Jesus Christ will take away your sins and the stain of those sins in you, temptations will lose their appeal, and through Christ you will become holy, as He and our Father are holy.We are instructed to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny [ourselves] of all ungodliness” (Moroni 10:32), to become “new creature” in Christ (see 2 Corinthians 5:17), to put off “the natural man” (Mosiah 3:19), and to experience “a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually” (Mosiah 5:2). Please note that the conversion described in these verses is mighty, not minor—a spiritual rebirth and fundamental change of what we feel and desire, what we think and do, and what we are. Indeed, the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ entails a fundamental and permanent change in our very nature made possible through our reliance upon “the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah” (2 Nephi 2:8). As we choose to follow the Master, we choose to be changed—to be spiritually reborn.The gospel of Jesus Christ encompasses much more than avoiding, overcoming, and being cleansed from sin and the bad influences in our lives; it also essentially entails doing good, being good, and becoming better. Repenting of our sins and seeking forgiveness are spiritually necessary, and we must always do so. But remission of sin is not the only or even the ultimate purpose of the gospel. To have our hearts changed by the Holy Spirit such that “we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually” (Mosiah 5:2), as did King Benjamin’s people, is the covenant responsibility we have accepted. This mighty change is not simply the result of working harder or developing greater individual discipline. Rather, it is the consequence of a fundamental change in our desires, our motives, and our natures made possible through the Atonement of Christ the Lord. Our spiritual purpose is to overcome both sin and the desire to sin, both the taint and the tyranny of sin.The essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ entails a fundamental and permanent change in our very nature made possible through the Savior’s Atonement.The doctrine of repentance is much broader than a dictionary’s definition. When Jesus said “repent,” His disciples recorded that command in the Greek language with the verb metanoeo. This powerful word has great significance. In this word, the prefix meta means “change.” The suffix relates to four important Greek terms: nous, meaning “the mind”; gnosis, meaning “knowledge”; pneuma, meaning “spirit”; and pnoe, meaning “breath.”Thus, when Jesus said “repent,” He asked us to change—to change our mind, knowledge, and spirit—even our breath. A prophet explained that such a change in one’s breath is to breathe with grateful acknowledgment of Him who grants each breath. King Benjamin said, “If ye should serve him who has created you … and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath … from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.”Yes, the Lord has commanded us to repent, to change our ways, to come unto Him, and be more like Him. This requires a total change. Alma so taught his son: “Learn wisdom in thy youth,” he said. “Learn in thy youth to keep the commandments of God. … Let all thy thoughts be directed unto the Lord; yea, let the affections of thy heart be placed upon the Lord forever.”The third important principle for us to understand if we would be true members of the Church is that repentance involves not just a change of actions, but a change of heart.When King Benjamin finished his remarkable address in the land of Zarahemla, the people all cried with one voice that they believed his words. They knew of a surety that his promises of redemption were true, because, said they, “the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent … has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, [and note this] that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.” (Mosiah 5:2.)When we have undergone this mighty change, which is brought about only through faith in Jesus Christ and through the operation of the Spirit upon us, it is as though we have become a new person. Thus, the change is likened to a new birth. Thousands of you have experienced this change. You have forsaken lives of sin, sometimes deep and offensive sin, and through applying the blood of Christ in your lives, have become clean. You have no more disposition to return to your old ways. You are in reality a new person. This is what is meant by a change of heart.Conversion includes a change in behavior, but it goes beyond behavior; it is a change in our very nature. It is such a significant change that the Lord and His prophets refer to it as a rebirth, a change of heart, and a baptism of fire.___________
These were only a very minor few of the talks, quotes, concepts, and scriptures that teach us that change of our very souls, natures, feelings, hearts, minds, and actions is absolutely possible through obedience and the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
These are refering to a change in our spiritual nature. I realize you can't separate the two but there is a difference.
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I accidentally posted before I was done...just a bit more:
How can you possibly feel it's correct to authoritatively say such a thing? You have no idea any more than I do whether any person's given issue will go away.
This is where you keep banging away at that dead horse and talking past me. The only way one fails is if one quits trying. I have never said anything to imply failure as long as one keeps trying.
Then people need to get realistic expectations about change. It's been repeatedly said by me and others holding this position that change may not happen in this life. If someone ignores that that's on them and you seeming to ignore it is on you. I'm not going to feel bad about making others feel guilty when I've been clear on that matter and they choose to ignore it just to be defensive.
It is nonequivalent to compare passions and emotions to physical hunger. And your repeated harping on the hunger thing falls pretty flat accordingly.
But...no one said anything about failure. This began with my statement that wrong is wrong, evil is evil, etc... Hunger is never evil. EVER. It just isn't. But certain passions are.
We agree that someone shouldn't feel like they've failed if they've never given up on controlling their passions. That does not make the passion itself good. Ever. Evil is evil. If we overcome the evil (whether the inclination goes away or not) then we haven't failed. But an evil inclination is still evil. Overcoming evil inclinations, as we have both stated, is part of life. But don't put it on me that I'm making people feeling guilty by calling evil evil. It is. And we all have evil inclinations, as you well know. So telling me I'm wrong for saying so also falls flat. It's truth. And, once again, if someone feels guilty for being imperfect...sorry...but welcome to mortality. We're all imperfect. Deal with it. It does no good to blame others for the guilt someone feels for not being perfect.
This is what you posted in #75; "
Do you honestly believe that someone who consistently puts of natural, evil tendencies won't change over time? You believe that the inclinations remain, exactly the same, exactly as strong, no matter how much we put them off and yield to the enticings of the Spirit?
I do not believe that. Practice makes perfect. Practice not being angry, and over time, you stop being angry. Add the Atonement and the literal changing effect it can have on our lives and character and the recipe is complete. Change is possible."
Now in this post you say; "If we overcome the evil (whether the inclination goes away or not) then we haven't failed."
... you cant have it both ways.
What changes is what inclinations we listen to, the spiritual ones or the carnal ones. The inclinations can remain the same and yet the being changes because those carnal inclinations are not listened to. But that does not mean those inclinations have changed, the body can keep them going with those evil influences even though they are ignored or overcome.
This is why we have to endure till the end.
If someone overcame some evil inclination through their spiritual prowess and they no longer listen or feel the influence of that particular inclination, you want me to believe that if the person dropped their gaurd and stopped being righteous that the evil inclination has dissapeared and will never challenge that person again? Or could it be that simply the person in their spiritual righteousness is keeping at bay the evil inclination that persists as a "thorn in the flesh" but kept under control as they don't give heed to that inclination when they are keeping their self spiritually pure. If they were to drop their armor, the evil inclination would gain power again - why? Because it never went away!!!!
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An entirely pointless response. First. So what? That doesn't mean they can't be overcome and/or done away with. Secondly. Says who? Doing away with them is certainly a subset of overcoming them. They can too be viewed as the same thing. I'll rephrase for clarity: None of these teachings or scriptures say that the thorn cannot be entirely done away with, or that glorying in one's infirmities means that they should not still try and do away with them with all their might.
You have nothing concrete to support that they can, in each and every case, only be removed upon death. Sorry. Your views on this are your own.
I accept, obviously, that some thorns may stay with us through this life. But that any and all thorns do?
I already said some a while back, look at post #83; "Some aspects of the natural man can change, such as the previous alcoholic developing a dislike for the taste of alcohol but there are many things that are simply the "thorn in the flesh" that we cannot change about our physical, carnal body, fallen self during this life. To lump them together as if all tendencies should be overcome in this life is wrong."
I never said any and all do.
Do you want to talk about trying to do away with them or doing away with them? Those are two different things.
As Elder Oaks explained people are born with some of these "thorns" as no fault of their own. If someday we can engineer the genetics then great, we can do away with some of those things. But until then, people are kinda stuck with their genetics. Yes they can fight genetics and go against the natural tendencies. I have not said anything against that and if anything have supported that idea, that one should endure to the end through these thorns. It is but a short time, then they are gone. The test will be over soon enough.
The main thing is to not learn to love them, to not say "God made me this way and so I accept it as the way I am supposed to be." We can live in the world without being of the world. God never told us to go live in some remote part of the forest and isolate ourselves from everything so we don't have to face any challenge in this life, like a monk is some far away monostary.
In a person that has same sex attraction, for example, that test and challenge may be there their whole life, it likely will not go away, no matter how good they are at controlling it. That does not mean the person failed in any way just because the tendency persists, because it is a carnal one that dies with the body so long as they don't take it in as "this is the way God made me so I desire to remain this way." Which is what you are saying about "fighting" the tendeny and I agree with that part. But you have to realize that there is a lot of guilt associated with the idea that one should be able to make it go away in this life and then it doesn't. For any given person, that "thorn in the flesh" may very well be there their whole life, just like Pauls didnt go away until he died. One should not feel like they failed any part of the test simply because the tendency is still there so long as they are controling that passion. Just like I don't feel guilty about being hungry on Fast Sunday. I do not expect to some day not even be hungry on Fast Sunday if I 'keep fighting the carnal instinct of hunger'. That is an unreasonable goal.
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None of these teachings or scriptures say that the thorn cannot every be removed, or that glorying in one's infirmities means that they should not still try and overcome them with all their might.
Again, overcoming them and doing away with them are two different things.
The thorns are removed upon death. So, yes they can be removed when the body is gone. In the meantime they are here.
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I think you may be overlooking our pre-existence when we lived in an exalted spiritual state 100% void of any physical temptations? I submit that both the evil and source of evil we face in this life - we have already faced and concurred before.
I can't say that I have been taught that we were exalted before coming here, in the premortal state. So, I am not sure about your use of the word exalted here.
We were talking about the state of people when they are in the Celestial Kingdom having passed both the first and second estate tests and having had received a perfected, resurrected body to never die again. I think there are clear differences between that state and the one we came from before the world began.
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The two are not mutually exclusive. We can always overcome the natural man. We should always try and change the natural man.
I agree with you there but we have to also accept the possibility that the "thorn in the flesh" may not change, it may be there throughout ones life. We are not expected to make it go away in this life but we are expected to not choose that over following God. Weaknesses in this life are for our growth. Wanting to not have any weaknesses around is what Satan argued as a good point to not come here in the first place.
So, you think Paul was wrong about wanting to accept his "thorn in the flesh"?
Elder Oaks from his talk on Same Gender Attraction, "
“Most of us are born with [or develop] thorns in the flesh, some more visible, some more serious than others. We all seem to have susceptibilities to one disorder or another, but whatever our susceptibilities, we have the will and the power to control our thoughts and our actions. This must be so. God has said that he holds us accountable for what we do and what we think, so our thoughts and actions must be controllable by our agency. Once we have reached the age or condition of accountability, the claim ‘I was born that way’ does not excuse actions or thoughts that fail to conform to the commandments of God. We need to learn how to live so that a weakness that is mortal will not prevent us from achieving the goal that is eternal.
“God has promised that he will consecrate our afflictions for our gain (see 2 Ne. 2:2). The efforts we expend in overcoming any inherited [or developed] weakness build a spiritual strength that will serve us throughout eternity. Thus, when Paul prayed thrice that his ‘thorn in the flesh’ would depart from him, the Lord replied, ‘My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.’ Obedient, Paul concluded:
“‘Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
“‘Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong’ (2 Cor. 12:9–10)."
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The references to dual beings are symbolic. We are unique individuals that by agency are singularly responsible for our choices. The reference to duality is symbolic in reference to those forces (good and evil) that influence our singular being. Please note that all evil influences come to us by an evil spirit being that is limited physically and can only communicate directly with us spiritually.
That is not what Elder Bednar said in April 2013 conference. Evil influences come to us by way of our body. If we take them in spiritually that is a choice of the spirit. They are presented via the body, thus the need to receive a body to undergo the second estate test. The choice between intellectual right vs wrong already took place in the first estate test.
David O. McKay said clearly that we have two opposing natures, one from the body and one from the spirit. It is not just symbolic.
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I didn't say everything will go away (in this life). I said we should try. Always. We should never give up, and never accept that we are incapable of change. We are. You like to pulling cryptic meaning out of quotes and scriptures that have no bearing on the point. We are, indeed, capable of growth and change, and none of your quotes are saying otherwise in the least degree.
I do not see wherein you're debating against the point I'm trying to make, which is, once again, that we should try and overcome the natural man. We should try and change. We should try and become like Christ in every way.
It seems to me that you're, rather, insisting that we embrace our weaknesses because we'll never be perfect. Is that what you're point is? If not, then what is your point?
I am debating the point that you are saying we should try to overcome the natural man in the same breath (so-to-speak) that we should try to change the natural man. My point is that sometimes we can overcome the natural man without changing the natural man, it is still there, underneath but by enduring it till the end. In the end we overcome it through death. Some aspects of the natural man can change, such as the previous alcoholic developing a dislike for the taste of alcohol but there are many things that are simply the "thorn in the flesh" that we cannot change about our physical, carnal body, fallen self during this life. To lump them together as if all tendencies should be overcome in this life is wrong.
I think it is wrong to tell someone that if they have a desire for alcohol even though they are controling it and not giving into it that they are somehow evil for having that craving. In my opinion, a person who has a craving for alcohol, that may be there their whole life and doesn't give into it despite being tempted over and over is doing excellent in this test!
In this life, yes, we are supposed to endure through our imperfections. When we die, we finally give up this corruption and it turns to dust where it came from. Then we get a perfect body which allows us to receive a fullness of our perfection. The test of endurance is not to see how much we can overcome but how we can perfect our ability to depend on the Lord. Why did Job get stricken with so many things towards the end of his faithful life? Were the number of things he was striken with a reflection of how successful he was in being faithful?
And by the way, your earlier comment about hunger when fasting not being evil is not correct, that is one of the things Christ was tempted with after His 40 day fast. He was hungry and Satan used that as a temptation. The hunger was coming from Christ' own body, from himself and yet Christ was not evil. The judgement of righteous or evil desires is not in what is presented but what is chosen after it is presented.
- Urstadt and paulsifer42
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Just trying to be clear and understand - are you implying that the struggle with evil is not a temporary external struggle - like being involved in church, physically doing some good things or striving to obtain the Celestial Kingdom or even being a citizen of the Celestial Kingdom - but an internal struggle with self and the importance of self; including the spiritual self? And that the best way to turn from acts of self is in the act of service of (even sacrifice for) others? Not just to achieve a purpose for self (becoming a G-d) - like being exalted but as an eternal ongoing struggle that includes an attitude of sacrifice?
Like Paul states, the weaknesses we face in this life, the evil that we face in this life is so that we learn dependency on the Lord. Satan could not imagine the idea of depending on someone else, he wanted it all for and of himself so that he would not have to give credit to anyone else. While we are in this life, like Paul states, we have this struggle with evil, the "thorn in the flesh" so that we don't exalt ourselves above measure - that is exactly what Satan wanted to do.
Of course, once we are exalted then there is no reason to be worried about being exalted above measure. There would be no reason to have a thorn in the flesh at that point.
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Also, Elder Wood describes our inability to get rid of the "thorn in the flesh"; "Paul then quotes the Lord, who tells him, “My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness” (2 Cor. 12:9). All men and women are bound by mortally imposed weaknesses and limitations in strength, knowledge, and power. Contrasting these limitations with the infinite wisdom and power of God brings humility. “Weaknesses are a constant reminder of our dependence upon the Lord. It is when we take those weaknesses to Him, in humility, that we can become effectively joined with Him in a great work. It is when we have done as much as we can do that His grace … can move us beyond our natural abilities” (Carolyn J. Rasmus, “Faith Strengthened in Weakness,” Church News, 26 Feb. 1994, 10). It is in this sense that God’s strength can then be made perfect in our lives. “The Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things” (Jacob 4:7)."
2 Corinthians 12; "7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."
It is not intended that the "thorn in the flesh" be taken away - it will be there our whole lives no matter how good one is at ignoring it or working through it.
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If an inclination is evil then it is evil. Yes. Stop applying that thinking to people. Having evil inclinations (something we all do) does not define us as good or evil. Were we to do so, then yes, all of us are evil. EVERYONE. All but Christ. But that is not the point here. It's not about labeling ourselves as good or evil, and frankly that response misses the point.
Yes. Overcoming the natural "evil" man is what it's about. So yes, it is evil. The natural man = evil -- hence: enemy to God.
No, we won't, and can't overcome all natural tendencies in this life. And I'm not saying will will or can.
But that is also missing the point.
The point is that we should try to, and giving up and just saying "forget it! I can't help it" is decidedly contrary to putting off the natural man.
Do you honestly believe that someone who consistently puts of natural, evil tendencies won't change over time? You believe that the inclinations remain, exactly the same, exactly as strong, no matter how much we put them off and yield to the enticings of the Spirit?
I do not believe that. Practice makes perfect. Practice not being angry, and over time, you stop being angry. Add the Atonement and the literal changing effect it can have on our lives and character and the recipe is complete. Change is possible.
Hunger is a poor example. Hunger is not evil...even when fasting. Fatigue is also not evil. Anger, lust, greed, etc...different story.
Not for everything but for some things yes, they do not go away no matter how hard someone tries.
We are dual beings, the one has a certain nature and the other has another nature. They don't always match. In some areas they might and so there is no conflict in those areas and they are different for different people. Some people might be born with an inclination for alcoholism and so that battle is more difficult in those people. Some people might be born with an inclination to fall asleep more often and not listen to the spirit when they should because they are fighting off the urge to sleep (i.e. - my name - seminarysnoozer). This whole thing is hard to understand if one doesn't go at it with a strong understanding that we are dual beings with two different natures. If one believes that it is just one thing, one nature then it would be hard to understand why it can't go away with spiritual action.
What changes over time is how much a person is influenced by one or the other. We are born into this world with little ability to oppose what the body wants, when we are hungry we cry etc. After a certain age, then we can start to oppose those inclinations and then the test starts. We then can become born again, born of the spirit and become spiritually minded. Even when a person is spiritually minded there is a chance they can slip back into following the passions of the body that are still there. This is why there is the commandment to endure. If there was no chance of reverting back to the "natural" nature then there would be no reason to endure. If one is not actively seeking the spirit, the default, the "natural" tendency is to follow the carnal. Like tuning the radio to a different station, one can listen to the spiritual influences more than the body (the brain). Are the carnal influences still there? Yes, they haven't stopped but they are on a different wavelength, one that a person doesn't have to tune into as much. And then there are some conditions where one cannot get away from the overlaping signals from both the body and the spirit.
For example, if a person has Torrettes and yells out an explitive during Sacrament meeting, is that evil? Or was that the spontaneous action of the body? If a person does not have a great understanding of our dual nature then these kinds of situations are hard to understand and one would tend to call a person with that condition as evil. They are not evil because in this life we are dual beings of two, often opposing natures. The body presents the opposition in some things so that we may be tested in some areas. For another it might be in terms of same sex attraction. The conflict exists because the two natures are opposing each other (in some ways).
Jesus was the Only Begotten. He had a different type of body then we do. If you don't believe that then what is the purpose for being the actual Only Begotten? His different body was still human and had "natural" tendencies and therefore He had to face similar challenges but it was certainly more in tune with His spirit than ours is. Could He have been our Savior with any body else' body? I think not.
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The idea that natural implies no fault of our own is, in my opinion, blatantly wrong. How can that possibly be reconciled with the natural man being an enemy to God? That is not an "action only" idea. The natural thinking man. The natural feeling man. The natural existing man. The full range of "natural" is an enemy to God. Our natural tendency is towards evil. So, yes, it may not be our fault that these things come to us naturally. They come by way of the fall of Adam. But it is, without a doubt, our fault if we we allow them to be rather than putting off the natural man.
So if I sit and stew in rage at every little thing but never act on it, I'm good?
I'm sorry...but this doesn't work for me. Most things listed as evil in the scriptures are, actually, feelings, not actions. Sure, there's the basic actions. Don't steal. Don't lie. Don't kill. Don't commit adultery. But lust, greed, anger, envy, etc...? Those are feelings. Natural feelings that come from being the natural man and make us enemies to God. I'm having a hard time seeing justification in being lustful, greedy, angry, envious people, as long as we don't commit adultery, lie, steal, and murder, then we're good.
The bottom line is that we are commanded to be like Christ. Christ never had evil feelings. If we do, whether we act on them or not, we have need to change and become more like Christ. If we do not, we may be following the commandments of not killing, lying, etc. But we aren't following the full measure of the commandments to become like him, accept him fully into our lives, and to let the atonement work within us to actually change our hearts.
They are evil because they are evil, while being a simple way of saying it, is not a simple idea at all. The myriad of variables in our actions play into what is evil and is not evil and it is, decidedly, complex. The point of my saying it was not to simplify things, it was to point out that they are evil because they are wrong, after all variables are factored in, and that the natural variable is not one of the components that determines whether they are evil. For example, the natural desire for sexual relations. I have it. But I only exercise it within the bounds of legal and lawful marriage according to God's standards. Therefore, my feelings and choices in this matter are righteous. But they're still natural. The fact that I'm naturally driven to this thing doesn't make it evil. Acting within the bounds of what the Lord has established as appropriate makes it righteous. Acting outside these bounds makes something evil.
As we are naturally inclined to not act within the Lord's bounds for things, we are naturally inclined to evil. Hence, the natural man is an enemy to God. Once again, however, the "natural" part of this is not the causative factor.
I think you should reread Elder Bednar's description; "The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."
There are the "inclinations" of the natural man which is separate from the idea of whether they are "responded" to or not. In other words, one can have an inclination but not respond to it. Is that evil in your mind?
I would suggest that, as Elder Bednar described, the test of this life is to see which one we respond to. Therefore, the "inclinations" are not going to go away while we are still in the test. If the "inclinations" of the natural man were not there then there would be no test. So, just to have a natural man "inclination" is not evil. Is it evil that I am hungry during Fast Sunday? Was it evil that the apostles slept when they didn't want to in the garden? The spirit is willing but the body is weak.
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What does natural have to do with a desire being a sin or not? An evil desire is evil, a righteous one is righteous. Whether or not it is natural or not is irrelevant.
It just so happens that our natural desires seem to be, for the most part, evil. But the evilness of those desires is not caused by their being natural. They are evil because they are evil.
From LDS.org under "Fall of Adam"; "
Our Fallen Condition
As descendants of Adam and Eve, we inherit a fallen condition during mortality (see Alma 42:5-9, 14). We are separated from the presence of the Lord and subject to physical death. We are also placed in a state of opposition, in which we are tested by the difficulties of life and the temptations of the adversary (see 2 Nephi 2:11-14; D&C 29:39; Moses 6:48-49).
In this fallen condition, we have a conflict within us. We are spirit children of God, with the potential to be “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4). However, “we are unworthy before [God]; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually” (Ether 3:2). We need to strive continually to overcome unrighteous passions and desires.
Repeating the words of an angel, King Benjamin said, “The natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam.” King Benjamin warned that in this natural, or fallen, state, each person will be an enemy to God forever “unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father” (Mosiah 3:19)."
Elder Bednar April Conference 2013; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).
The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."
David O. McKay; "Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual.
Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body. In declaring this fact the scriptures are very explicit:
“And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” [Abraham 5:7.]
Man’s body, therefore, is but the tabernacle in which his spirit dwells. Too many, far too many, are prone to regard the body as the man, and consequently to direct their efforts to the gratifying of the body’s pleasures, its appetites, its desires, its passions. Too few recognize that the real man is an immortal spirit, which [is] “intelligence or the light of truth"
The problem with saying an evil desire is evil is the fact that "far too many, are prone to regard the body as the man". It is not the "real man", "man is a dual being" with "contrasting natures". As Elder Bednar puts it, "The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord"
David O McKay states that the body has desires. This may be different than "desires of the heart".
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There is a very big difference between - putting an animal in a barn (caging, tying up, or binding) and bridling an animal. A bridle on an animal is like a rudder on a boat - It is a means to control an animal to go somewhere under control. A bridle is a means of control - not chains of prevention.
I have been an advocate of desires, passions and appetites -- that these things can be used for our benefit. But they must be kept under control and not let loos - without a bridle to trample cultivated areas or run of some cliff somewhere. There are some that think any such desires are the essence of the "natural man". I strongly disagree. I believe such things are to be kept in submission to spiritual intelligence and reasonable reason.
It seems to me that some are of the mind that desires, passions and appetites cannot be controlled - that even trying to control is evil at its core - but I believe such is the purpose of religion and civil law - to define the limits and what happens to cage those that cannot or will not control themselves.
Just like when we talk about money, natural desires by themselves are not evil, it is the love of them over the things of God that is evil.
Money is not evil but if someone loves money and especially if it results in forgetting the things of God to obtain money than it is evil.
Similarly if one learns to love carnal things over spiritual things than that is evil.
One first has to understand as David O. McKay stated that these two natures, the natural man and the spirit of man are in opposition. Combine that with the concept that we cannot serve two masters. Satan would like us to think that we could manage that somehow, that we could serve both natures, the carnal and the spiritual at the same time. Our leaders including Paul, David O. McKay and Elder Bednar have made it clear that we cannot do that. To say that we somehow can do that goes against our teachings, not the other way around.
To have a carnal nature is not evil just like having money is not evil. It is only when the carnal nature becomes master of the soul that it is evil. We all were given a carnal nature upon birth, that is not evil by itself as we know those that die before the age of 8 receive a carnal body and yet are saved before the foundations of the world. Only when one chooses to let the carnal nature take control does evil enter into the soul after the age of accountability.
Consider the difference between one who has Tourrette's syndrome in which she uncontrollably lets out explitives vs taking the Lord's name in vain. Is there a difference or is it just as bad when the corrupted body uncontrollably lets out an explitive? There is a difference, taking the Lord's name in vain is when the soul lets carnal natures take control and lets it happen whereas an explitive let out because of a vocal tic caused by Tourrette's is not intentional or started out with any evil intention. God would have to judge such things as certainly a person with Tourrette's could still take the Lord's name in vain. If a person with Tourrette's learns to like the explitives flying out of their mouth from time to time then that would be evil as well.
If I am hungry during Fast and Testimony meeting I have not commited any sin because I am not letting the carnal be my master if I don't follow that drive. To have it is not sin but to comply with it when there is an opposing command from the spirit or to fail to listen to spiritual commands is a sin.
I honestly don't know of anyone in our religion who believes that "having natural desires is a sin". I am not sure where you get that from. But to make natural desires the master over spiritual ones is a sin.
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Just trying to understand your view of being in the Celestial Kingdom - With no opposition because the Father and Son have eliminated all evil options from any possibility of affecting you or anyone else in the Celestial kingdom; what good act could you possibly be involved in doing? As a side question - how is your view of the Celestial Kingdom any different than Lucifer's plan - which I understand was, at least in part, to eliminate any evil option.
The difference is in how it is done. Overcoming evil by way of humility and faith in Christ is different than the arrogant self serving way Lucifer proposed.
What good act could God be doing that He hasn't already achieved? ... He can help others in their path. He can bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man. Why could we not be involved in that work?
Acts of self improvement and achievement are limited and limiting, this is the difference and the lesson learned by their difference. We hope to receive joy, one day, by the endless number of others we can help on their journey.
Mossiah 2; "17 And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.
18 Behold, ye have called me your king; and if I, whom ye call your king, do labor to serve you, then ought not ye to labor to serve one another?"
This is why the greatest commandments to enter the Kingdom of God have to do with empathy which is the characteristic needed to gleen value in someone else' accomplishments. Lucifer could not grasp the idea that glory could come from someone else achievements, a Savior. He didn't realize that giving glory to God and Our Savior is the way that it is shared with everyone there. Mossiah 18; " 9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—"
Note that many of the scriptures that express the greatest amount of joy is not in terms of self improvement but in helping and serving others. 100% joy will come when we are done working on self and have reached a point where we can 100% serve others. D&C 18; "15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!
16 And now, if your joy will be great with one soul that you have brought unto me into the kingdom of my Father, how great will be your joy if you should bring many souls unto me!
17 Behold, you have my gospel before you, and my rock, and my salvation.
18 Ask the Father in my name in faith, believing that you shall receive, and you shall have the Holy Ghost, which manifesteth all things which are expedient unto the children of men.
19 And if you have not faith, hope, and charity, you can do nothing."
In the discussion of the greatest joys and how to get it, there is nothing that says it is obtained by personally battling evil. The greatest joy is in helping others overcome any leanings towards evil, having love for them, charity. Of course there is joy in repentence and improving one self but the eternal happiness that is the core of Eternal Life is based in helping others once we have reached the tree of life.
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We are here in circumstances to bury our dead according to the order of the Priesthood. But some of our brethren die upon the ocean; they cannot be buried in a burying ground, but they are sewed up in canvas and cast into the sea, and perhaps in two minutes after they are in the bowels of the shark, yet those persons will come forth in the resurrection, and receive all the glory of which they are worthy, and be clothed upon with all the beauty of resurrected Saints, as much so as if they had been laid away in a gold or silver coffin, and in a place expressly for burying the dead."
(bold added)
The type of bodies we have here we will have in the next life but they will be perfected. If perfecting a corrupted body is no big deal than I suppose there is not much difference from our current body to the one we will posess in the next life. If one thinks that the paradisiacal body that was posessed by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden was not changed much when it fell from that state to similar conditions of our current state than I can see how one would believe that it is no big thing to change this body into an eternal one.
Christ' body was different than ours. If one doesn't believe that then they don't believe that He was the Only Begotten, that His Father of His body was Our Heavenly Father. That is very unlike our body now. Yes there are many similarities and indistinguishable features but Christ was the only one who could do the things He did and it required that He be the Only Begotten and have an Only Begotten body. Could Christ be Our Savior with a body that was begotten by Joseph and Mary alone? Something to ponder why one thinks that way.
The last paragraph quoted from Brigham Young suggets that it really doesn't matter where the body is lain at death and what it's condition because those people will still be clothed with an eternal body. This suggests that it doesn't require the actual material used while in this probationary state to perform resurrection. The buriel and the rise from the grave is symbolic just like the bread we eat and the water we drink every week is not actually Christ's felsh and blood. When Christ said "eat of my flesh" he didn't break off a piece of His actual flesh but this is symbolic of partaking of a different kind of flesh, an Only Begotten type of flesh. We should not maintain any affinity for the treasures of this world and that includes the corrupted body that turns to dust in the end.
Matthew 6; "19 ¶Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"
What matters most is where one's eye is. If we burry our treasure and keep our hearts and eyes on that burried treasure that turns to dust than we are not looking at true treasure which is in Heaven where the treasure is not corrupted. Symbolically speaking, look up not down. Give up your own flesh and replace it with Christ's flesh and blood.
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I think you are jumping to conclusions. Just because we do not "see" something does not mean that we cannot discern it. In addition modern science has increased our understanding of matter and determined that when the revelations you quoted were given that over 90% of the universe consists of matter that cannot be seen. But since such matter does not fit your paradigm of assumptions you reject the empirical evidence for unfounded interjection.
I am not saying that dark matter and dark energy is spirit matter (eternal matter) - only that the possibility be considered.
The best way to understand what will be is in understanding what is. I believe the great lesson of existence is learning that the only way to take care of the future is to take care of the present.
I reject that idea knowing that all of the creation around us, the universe etc is just temporary. It will be done away with and made anew. And I reject the idea knowing that there is a difference between fine matter (matter that is not temporary) and course matter (matter that is corrupt and not made to last but a time). There is nothing that says the two have to be mixed together is some great mixing pot. When we receive an eternal body, it too will be made of eternal material, not the material that is temporary as all of that will be done away with.
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Hmmmmmmmmmm - there is a saying; "The devil is in the details." One thing I have learned in my profession - those that do not know the details - do not know what they are doing.
In the future? ...that is what we were talking about.
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This has never made much sense to me. Why would God make it so that spirits are limited without temple work being done by people on earth? This would mean that millions upon millions are waiting to be baptized, sealed, etc. There is no possible way that we can even come close to doing the work for all spirits.
I think one has to think of this as being one of those things in which the means to the end is just as important as the end. There is value in taking a name to the temple to do work for someone and the experiences gained by doing that act of service. There is value to the person who receives the act of kindness as well more than would be there if it was as simple as crossing a name off a list somewhere.
There is value in doing things, that is one of the main lessons and tests of this life. Will we do the things we are asked to do? If all we had to do is say that we would do them if we had the chance then nobody would move onto the second estate test, the test of actually doing the things we said we would. If all we had to do is proclaim that we believe and would follow Christ and His teachings no matter what then this whole thing would have ended at the first estate test as we all believed and said we would do those things. So, doing is different than saying you would do it. It is a test of integrity with addional refinement and appreciation for the value of the blessings by actually having the experience for both the doer and the receiver.
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This is one of those that Satan uses to trouble believers and it's used by skeptics. When I was on my mission in France, atheists would often try to establish a straw-man argument with a scenario like: "What if you get eaten by a shark, and then the shark dies, and its remains get eaten by crabs, and then I eat the shark, then I die." Their argument was that the literal matter of my body goes through nature and gets re-used, so that nothing can be lost. So how is it possible for me to get my body back?
Those kinds of arguments never troubled me. Unlike any other existing religion, latter-day saints have had experience with resurrected beings. Joseph Smith saw and interacted with several of them. Moroni, John the Baptist, Peter, James, (John was translated, so I won't count him), Moses, Elias, Elijah, and others appeared to him to confer keys.
Moroni was a physical being who gave him physical gold plates. The three witnesses of the BOM saw and angel and he turned the pages on the plates. Physical hands were laid on the head of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery when the various keys were conferred by heavenly messengers. The reality of the resurrection has been witnessed by individuals in this dispensation. We have no doubt of the physical nature of the resurrection.
Of course, there is the testimony of the four gospels and the Book of Mormon, which relate the accounts of those who saw the risen Christ, but that is from an ancient record. I don't mean to discount that, but our critics would. It is hard to sweep away the testimony of modern witnesses who left their experiences for us to consider.
I don't worry about the how. I just know that God has promised that he will resurrect all of us and that Jesus' resurrection is the template for that. How it will occur, I don't know. I just know that it has and that real people have witnessed the results.
On a more spiritual or "metaphysical" level, I would throw this out for consideration. All of us pass through a veil into mortality. To me, the veil is symbolic. The veil for each of us is a woman. Motherhood is the "veil" between premortal life and eternity. When we pass through the veil to get back into eternity, there is another veil through which we must pass. That veil is the priesthood. Motherhood and fatherhood are linked in this manner. The resurrection is a priesthood ordinance that will be taught to us later. The temple foreshadows this. How will we be resurrected? The fathers to whom we are sealed will resurrect us.
Just to say that it is all matter doesn't speak of whether it is of a different type. D&C suggests they are different, "
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter."
In other words, when the body is changed from a type that can't see fine matter to one that can then we will see that it is all matter but realize there are different types, one of which is fine and can only be discerned by the purified body.
When we say "physical" we realize there is more than one type of "physical", it is not all one in the same. Otherwise a physical body would not have to be transfigured to withstand the presence of God.
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Interesting - what do you plan on accomplishing with others when you get to the Celestial Kingdom?
Without knowing the details fully, I think I could safely say, God's work. ... Helping in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
The World and its Creation
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted · Edited by Seminarysnoozer
What specific physical challenge are we going to face in the Celestial Kingdom (if we are fortunate enought to make it there)? I have never been taught such a thing, so please enlighten me. I understand we will continue to progress, to me that is not the same thing as challenge. Challenge to me would have to be a condition that could take us down different pathways, it would have to entail choices with different consequences.
Is a fullness offered to a person in the Celestial Kingdom or is there a possibility of not receiving a fullness of inheritance?
If one buys a train ticket to San Francisco then one is going to San Francisco (so-to-speak) in God's perfect system. There is no chance for derailment or deviation from the course. There is no change in the path. "Buying the ticket" meaning after the final judgement or after the completion of the first and second estate tests. We know of no other fork in the road. That does not mean there is no further progression, I realize we still progress but that does not have to entail forks in the road. If it did include forks in the road off that pathway then God judged incorrectly. To me, that is not a possibility.
Before the completion of the first and second estate tests there are forks in the road. The final destination pathway is not decided until the final judgement. Now is our time to have a change in heart or to prepare to meet God, not after.
According to Elder Nelson April 2008; "To be exalted—or to gain exaltation—refers to the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial realm. These blessings can come to us after we leave this frail and mortal existence. The time to prepare for our eventual salvation and exaltation is now."
Amulek explains the lack of the fork in the road after Alma 34; "
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed."
"No labor performed" - in other words, no physical challenge.