Seminarysnoozer

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Everything posted by Seminarysnoozer

  1. I think I can't, I think I can't .... choo choo! If you can't stand it and can't believe it and can't have faith in it, why are you posting on this forum? There is some other motive.
  2. As my son rapidly approaches the age of 18 I have thought about this more. I think it is also a wonderful opportunity for a young man to understand sacrifice. I find it interesting to think that giving two years at the age of 18 would be a full tithe. This sets the tone for service for not only that young man but for his future family. I know it is not going to be easy for me. My eyes are tearing up just thinking about it. It is a bit of sacrifice for everyone in the family. I know I benefit from my husbands service even though I did not serve a full time mission. He is able to share personal stories of conversion with our family and what it means to deticate oneself to the Lord's work. The time he spent studying the gospel while on his mission has helped me in my understanding the gospel. We hope to be able to serve a mission as a couple down the road. He has told me there were certain gifts of the spirit that he was able to partake of while on his mission that would likely have not occured in any other position than as a dedicated full time unpaid servant of the Lord. I think the strength of our Church is rested upon the sacrifice of these young men and women who leave their busy and exciting lives behind in service of the Lord. I love farewell and homecoming Sacrament meetings, they're the best. I also think the best way to understand something occurs when one has to teach someone else about it. It is one thing to believe, it is another to testify.
  3. You are throwing in a lot of things that I did not say. I did not say anything about personal hygiene or taking care of one's personal stewardships including the body. Missionaries dress the same. I am not sure how that is supportive of what you are saying. Go to the temple and see how individual everyone looks there. Individuality is not evil, it is the love of it. The actual appearance of someone could not judge that just like I wouldn't judge someone as evil if they had money. The love of money is evil. The desire to outwardly distinguish oneself with a heart full of pride is evil. This, of course, cannot be judged by looking at someone. This is your interpretation of what I said but I said nothing of the sort. I gave many examples of what I was talking about and you chose to narrow it down to something I never said. I explained that seeking one's own is not loving God first. That is at the root of one who believes their self to be unique and therefore special compared to someone else. Why does God say that He is not a respecter of persons? For this very issue. He looks at the inner man, not the outer. How can someone want to be one with God in every way at the same time desire to be different? Go ahead and explain that to me. There is a description of the place where people have desired to be different, the Telestial Kingdom as one star differs from another but for the Kingdoms Celestial and Terrestrial they are of one body. Lets see how Nephi described people that want to be vain and individual and prideful; " 18 And the large and spacious building, which thy father saw, is vain imaginations and the pride of the children of men. And a great and a terrible gulf divideth them; yea, even the word of the justice of the Eternal God, and the Messiah who is the Lamb of God, of whom the Holy Ghost beareth record, from the beginning of the world until this time, and from this time henceforth and forever." Lets see what Jacob thought about vain individuality; " 13 And the hand of providence hath smiled upon you most pleasingly, that you have obtained many riches; and because some of you have obtained more abundantly than that of your brethren ye are lifted up in the pride of your hearts, and wear stiff necks and high heads because of the costliness of your apparel, and persecute your brethren because ye suppose that ye are better than they." It comes down to believing in one's heart that one's current look, whether it is height, color of skin, color of eyes, apptitude for certain areas of study, brain power etc is "better than they". As soon as one says in their heart, I am glad I am this way and not another way, that is pride. Or if they say I am glad I am this way and hope to remain this way in the next life (talking about external features here) because it is better than another way, that is pride and vanity. If one falls in love with one self, yes, that is evil. Don't stretch that into not taking care of self or taking showers or looking presentable, I am talking about what is in the heart. Christ is described as no outward features that man should him desire. He wasn't the most suave handsome man on the block, he wasn't the tallest or the shortest or the most striking while on Earth. (Yes that is my opinion not doctrine). Moroni; "“I know that you do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel. … For behold, ye do love money, … and your fine apparel, … more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted” (Morm. 8:36–37)." From Edwin Hubbell Chapin, as quoted by Stephen R. Covey, Spiritual Roots of Human Relations (1993), 27. "Even though costly apparel was and is a physical manifestation, it is properly placed in a spiritual context: “When money and possessions become the chief marks of distinction in society, then the pursuit of money becomes the only action worthwhile. And if this pursuit requires the sacrifice of honesty, integrity, compassion, and all other virtues, then so be it, for the love of money is indeed the root of all evil. Thus the wearing of costly apparel involves the soul as much as the body.”Our society as well as the Zoramites’ may well be guilty of using fashion as “the science of appearances, [inspiring us] with the desire to seem rather than to be.” Let me also propose that if one loves their neighbor as self then there would be no problem whatsoever if one's neighbor was exactly like one self. If one sees their neighbor as self then one does not see the differences the world sees nor takes pride in the differences. One loves their neighbor despite the differences. The differences don't become a goal in that light. There is no love for proprietary anything when one loves their neighbor as self. This is the result of inequality as stated in the Book of Mormon; "12 And the people began to be distinguished by ranks, according to their riches and their chances for learning; yea, some were ignorant because of their poverty, and others did receive great learning because of their riches. 13 Some were lifted up in pride, and others were exceedingly humble; some did return railing for railing, while others would receive railing and persecution and all manner of afflictions, and would not turn and revile again, but were humble and penitent before God. 14 And thus there became a great inequality in all the land, insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land save it were among a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and they would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord."
  4. You are softening your words, I only had issue with the words "eternal conflict". Conflict implies battle, fight, war, struggle. Will the war be won or not? Will there be peace or war in the Celestial Kingdom? If there has to be opposites then how can we have peace without the possibility of war? The opposites in all things is a description of mortality and the test we face here to bring about salvation. There is no "possibility of evil" in the Celestial Kingdom, I have not been taught of that place. I have been taught of a place of peace and rest, "come unto my rest". This does not mean there is no work to do but that there is no conflict. Having the possibility of evil is a limiting trait, liberty is achieved by being pure and righteous. Evil is limiting, binding etc. In the Celestial Kingdom there is no chance to be limited again, there is only a chance for eternal growth.
  5. Good question, thanks. This will have to be defined in summary of course because to describe every aspect of the gospel is way too much for me to do. It is defined in detail amongst the standard works of scripture available to us through modern revelation. The gospel is our Heavenly Father's plan to achieve the most happiness possible, eternally. In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment. The gospel was restored to its fullness by Joseph Smith in our day. All people around the world have access to it for the most part (there are pockets that may not) and all will have an opportunity to accept or reject it in the spirit world if not here. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost”
  6. Why are you trying to suggest that views of the world are doctrine? I was talking about views of the world. Don't you realize the world constantly states one should distinguish their self, one should stand out in a crowd one should have a certain outward appearance that says 'look at me, I am special'. Maybe this is a female thing. We are constantly hit with what we should look like and are scorned if we don't have a certain outward appearance. This is called vanity. In the October 2001 general conference, President Henry B. Eyring, then of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and now First Counselor in the First Presidency, spoke about the dangers of vanity: “God is forgotten out of vanity. A little prosperity and peace, or even a turn slightly for the better, can bring us feelings of self-sufficiency. We can feel quickly that we are in control of our lives, that the change for the better is our own doing, not that of a God who communicates to us through the still, small voice of the Spirit. Pride creates a noise within us which makes the quiet voice of the Spirit hard to hear. And soon, in our vanity, we no longer even listen for it. We can come quickly to think we don’t need it.” The scriptures warn that vanity and pride can separate us from God’s will when we attempt to further our own will. The result is the loss of the Spirit, as is described in the Doctrine and Covenants: “But when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man” (D&C 121:37). The world sees the outer man, God sees the inner, this is common knowledge, nothing I should have to set out as established doctrine. In a talk during the October 2011 general conference, President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, Second Counselor in the First Presidency, said: “The great deceiver knows that one of his most effective tools in leading the children of God astray is to appeal to the extremes of the paradox of man. To some, he appeals to their prideful tendencies, puffing them up and encouraging them to believe in the fantasy of their own self-importance and invincibility. He tells them they have transcended the ordinary and that because of ability, birthright, or social status, they are set apart from the common measure of all that surrounds them. He leads them to conclude that they are therefore not subject to anyone else’s rules and not to be bothered by anyone else’s problems.” Pride and the outward expression of ones status and the love for that appearance is vanity, it is a desire to put oneself above another by way of appearance. Young Women's General President Susan Tanner (Who I have met and spoken with personally); " The pleasures of the body can become an obsession for some; so too can the attention we give to our outward appearance. Sometimes there is a selfish excess of exercising, dieting, makeovers, and spending money on the latest fashions (see Alma 1:27). I am troubled by the practice of extreme makeovers. Happiness comes from accepting the bodies we have been given as divine gifts and enhancing our natural attributes, not from remaking our bodies after the image of the world. The Lord wants us to be made over—but in His image, not in the image of the world, by receiving His image in our countenances (see Alma 5:14, 19)." Moroni 7; " 45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." Ezra Taft Benson; "Pride is essentially competitive in nature. We pit our will against God’s. When we direct our pride toward God, it is in the spirit of “my will and not thine be done.” As Paul said, they “seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s.” (Philip. 2:21.)"
  7. We believe that all that are here believed in Christ plan before coming here and thus passed the first estate test. All here freely obtain everlasting life from Christ' atonement. They will all go onto resurrection because they believed in Him and had faith in His plan. Now, we face the test of doing what we said we would before this life, to do the things that are asked of us, in faith. All here will receive a degree of glory because of their faith in the plan exhibited by even being here in the first place. Those that did not believe in Christ' and God's plan are not born here in this life. The plan of happiness (also known as the plan of salvation) is more happy and glorious than most people realize, it allows for a merciful and loving God to reward His children with everlasting life because they believed and had faith in His plan. Christ stated, forgive them for they know not what they do. How could fogiveness be given if they don't believe in this life and don't know what they are doing? Because they already passed the first estate test. The idea of only saving those "15 million" who demonstrate faith in this life is certainly not a belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. That must be based in some other understanding.
  8. That is your emotional reaction to my posts. I made a post in reaction to the OP and then you started to pick apart my post trying to find motive behind it. It was not the other way around. I did not make a post to make others not post. I gave my opinion (that is what this forum is about and the OP) which is what the OP was asking. You expected me to post something other than that defined by me with a question about how "you live the gospel"? You expected me to post something about how other people live the gospel? I don't understand your desire to find motive behind why I post the way I do. If you disagree with me, fine, that happens all the time. Please go ahead and disagree with me, that is what the forum is about. Post your beliefs. Tell me why I am wrong. I am okay with that. I am open to learning and growing. My belief is that the full "gospel" is contained within the church. That is what I have been taught. If I am wrong, I do not know it despite my many prayers over many decades of life in search for truth. This does not mean that other religions could have parts and pieces of the truth and parts of the gospel. To live the gospel to me, means to live it fully. If you think one can live the gospel partially then go ahead and post that, you don't have to pick appart my motives to do that. If you believe the LDS church is not the gospel or does not encompass all of the gospel then go ahead and post that, I am not stopping you. I am not a moderator.
  9. Who said anything about the choices not expanding? All I am saying is that evil won't be one of them. Why could it not be that choices expand because of the opportunities while in the Celestial Kingdom go on and on eternally? A kite with a string can fly, the kite without a string can't fly. I am saying that if you won't break the Word of Wisdom them you are afforded new opportunities that are not available to those who can't even master that issue. Joseph Smith said (paraphrasing) if we are successful with small stewardships we will be given greater ones. How can eternal happiness be together with eternal conflict? Are we only happy when there is a battle or struggle? Again the idea that 'we are all enlisted till the conflict is o'er, happy are we!' is a false ideal for you? You are equating choice between good and evil with "eternal conflict" and that, I think, is your mistake. Just because God theoretically could choose evil does mean that He is in "conflict" with evil. Is God conflicted with evil? Absolutely not! I could burn my house down but there is no conflict, there is nothing driving me or tempting me to do such a thing. Could I do it? Sure. But there is absolutely nothing pushing me to do such a stupid thing right now, there is no conflict. Likewise, just because there is no conflict does not preclude the opportunity to do something. I was simply stating your missuse of the words "eternal conflict". When Christ was in body here on Earth He fasted for 40 days then He was tempted by Satan to turn a stone into bread. There was conflict, He was hungry, He had the power to do it and yet He didn't. If He was not hungry there would be no conflict but that doesn't preclude the possibility of Him turning stone into bread. Now if God told Him to turn stone into bread, He could do it or if God told Him not to turn stone into bread He could not do it. There is choice and yet there is no conflict. The choices are simply not between good and evil. Mormon understood this concept in describing Moroni; " 17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men." So, in a place where all are like Moroni, how much power will Satan have? What is the Holy Spirit of Promise? D&C; " 124 First, I give unto you Hyrum Smith to be a patriarch unto you, to hold the sealing blessings of my church, even the Holy Spirit of promise, whereby ye are sealed up unto the day of redemption, that ye may not fall notwithstanding the hour of temptation that may come upon you." "Sealed up" so as to "not fall" sounds like no conflict to me. Revelation 12; " 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." D&C 38; "18 And I hold forth and deign to give unto you greater riches, even a land of promise, a land flowing with milk and honey, upon which there shall be no curse when the Lord cometh; 19 And I will give it unto you for the land of your inheritance, if you seek it with all your hearts." Joseph Smith Translation of Revelations; "9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ; 10 For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 For they have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death. Therefore, rejoice O heavens, and ye that dwell in them." In the Kingdom of God, they have overcome Satan. Rejoice, because Satan is overcome. Happiness comes from not having a conflict with Satan anymore. Revelations JST " 12 And after these things I heard another voice saying, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, yea, and they who dwell upon the islands of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." The conflict is for a time, not eternal!!! Revelations; "7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." You must think this scripture is a lie. D&C 88; " 114 And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all." "shall not have power over the saints any more at all" ... believe it, this is truth. The conflict is not eternal for any given saint. Yes there is one great round for God and worlds without end He has but for any one of us that makes it into the Celestial Kingdom the devil and his armies will be overcome and the conflict will be over.
  10. Appearance, smearance ... they are not going to be talking about the basal frontal lobe pathways through the limbic system in the scriptures. They are not going to be talking about the higher cortical functions of the brain that allows humans to reason, to act socially, to have empathy and a sense of duty, loyalty, sorrow etc. The capacity for those things is limited by what the physical body can do. Many of those pathways are determined by genetic factors, a few are altered over time by behaviors. The propensities and capacities start with genetically determined neuroanatomy and are limited by such. Could Christ be Christ in anyone else' body? I say no. I say He had to be the Only Begotten to carry out what He did. Why? I am not sure about that other then I ponder the reason is that He had to have a certain physical make up to allow His spirit to carry out what He was carried out to do. We say these things all the time but then when it comes to this issue it is hard to accept, I am not sure why. We tell stories all the time of famous athletes who later give thanks to God for giving them their skill and ability, giving them the body they have to carry out such athletic accomplishments. That seems to be acceptable. What about the bodies ability to ignore carnal things. To not want to turn the stone into bread even though one has been fasting 40 days. Or when someone has a mind given them to learn a language quickly on their mission. Should not thanks be given for such gifts and abilities. Were they given or were they intrinsic to the spirit and would have been there no matter what body the person had? Could a 5'3'' man play professional basketball just as well as he could have when given a 6'9'' body? Could Einstein been who he was with someone else brain? Is that what you want to believe? That the body provides nothing to the soul, that it is purely the spirit alone? Then why have a body in the first place if it is purely the spirit alone? To understand what in the exact same form and fashion means, take the worlds shortest man and the world's tallest man and then you have your range of what that could mean. If they differ by 7 or 8 feet, then our image could be off by as much as 8 feet and still be created in the image of God. Or take the worlds fatest man and the skinniest and the difference between the two is how much off we could be from the acutual structure of God and yet still be called having been made in the image of God. It is a very vague image.
  11. I don't know how that works, it hasn't been revealed. All I am saying is that we believe that God created one Adam and one Eve in a paradisiacal state. We also believe that to be in a Celestial realm one would be one with God and Christ as Christ and God are one, Christ being in the express image of His Father. The desire for distinguishing and unique identifying characteristics, from an external stand point is a worldly, corrupted desire. Why, do you desire to be unique and different than everyone else? Do you desire to have some kind of proprietary trait that God cannot say He has? Do you expect to be an inch taller or an inch shorter than He and yet still be one with Him? How will that work? If you say it doesn't matter, then great it doesn't matter if we are all the same. If you say it does matter then you are going to have to make those arguements based in carnal things.
  12. You are comparing apples to oranges. God created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The Fall created men in the world. The Fall changed the bodies that were created in the Garden to something else, mortal bodies. The worldly men are of varied varieties. How He made the varieties is through corruption, the curse of the Earth after the Fall. An even bigger idea to ponder is why it is important to be sealed to our Earthly parents. It might have to do with the justice of receiving an inheritance, to inherit the genes of our first father and mother as it was in the Garden of Eden - but that topic may be too big for this thread.
  13. Russel M. Nelson; "Before we can comprehend the Atonement of Christ, however, we must first understand the Fall of Adam. And before we can understand the Fall of Adam, we must first understand the Creation. These three crucial components of the plan of salvation relate to each other.2 The CreationThe Creation culminated with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. They were created in the image of God, with bodies of flesh and bone.3 Created in the image of God and not yet mortal, they could not grow old and die.4 “And they would have had no children”5 nor experienced the trials of life. (Please forgive me for mentioning children and the trials of life in the same breath.) The creation of Adam and Eve was a paradisiacal creation, one that required a significant change before they could fulfill the commandment to have children6 and thus provide earthly bodies for premortal spirit sons and daughters of God. The FallThat brings us to the Fall. Scripture teaches that “Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.”7 The Fall of Adam (and Eve) constituted the mortal creation and brought about the required changes in their bodies, including the circulation of blood and other modifications as well. 8" According to Nelson there are two creations, the paradisiacal version and then the mortal one that was the result of the Fall. He describes it as a "significant change" ... so, good try. They are no more the same one then the ressurected body is like the one we have now. You may not see that as a "significant change" but Russel M. Nelson does. The magnitude of the atonement is dependent on how far we fell from the paradisiacal state. If it was no big change then the atonement is no big thing. These are all tied into each other. The atonement reverses the effects of the Fall to bring it back to the original creation, the paridisiacal creation.
  14. No, Lucifers plan was to get to that point without going through the second estate test. Why risk it? was his argument, why not receive our inheritence without any price to pay or any understanding of its value. He wasn't even paying attention to the need to be agents unto ourselves. Lucifer's plan was a lie, it couldn't happen that way. It was attractive because it was the end without having to be tested or pay any price for it. He wanted his cut right then and there without having to work any harder, he rebelled. Because he rebelled, he was cut off and then he became Satan. When he made the argument in the War in Heaven, he thought he was still "in" the program to reach the same goals as everyone else, to be like God. Lucifers plan resulted in captivity, God's plan resulted in liberty. Now he wants everyone else to be captive like he is, miserable, by taking away the agency that was given to us in this life. Liberty and agency are two different things. In the Celestial Kingdom, those people will be free from the captivity of evil, there will be no more conflict for them, thus being free. A kite without a string can't fly, once the decision is made to use a string or not, the kite either flies or it stays on the ground. Agency is as it is described on LDS.org; " What Is Agency? Agency is the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and to act for ourselves. Agency is essential in the plan of salvation. Without agency, we would not be able to learn or progress or follow the Savior. With it, we are “free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil” ( 2 Nephi 2:27)." The choice is the opposing choices; liberty and eternal life vs. captivity and death. Through the agency we have in mortality we will make that ultimate choice. Once that choice is made and finalized we don't make that choice again. Once a person receives eternal life and has already made the choice the agency has given them, you are saying they are going to faced with that decision over and over again? I dont think so. Let me ask you this, once Celestial glory is assigned, could it be that God judged in error, that a person there would later decide not to have eternal life? That would make God an unjust God. So, it would not be a possibility for anyone in the Celestial Kingdom to choose anything but that which they have already chosen and received. They would be on that path permanently.
  15. You stated earlier "The conflict of justice is temporary and thus resolved in the eternal situations – otherwise there is no justice. But evil will always exist and will always be a possibility and will forever remain in opposition to good. Do you believe that evil will no longer exist – will become impossible or will somehow no longer oppose good?" I am not talking about evil existing or not existing. I already agreed to the fact that there is an eternal round in which the same things happen over and over again and as Brigham Young stated once, there is never a time in which a new world is going in which the same things we are going through the other worlds are also going through, it is one eternal round. So, lets put that asside. I am not arguing the point that evil doesn't exist, yes it will always. The point I am at odds with your statement is the thought that evil "will always be a possibility." My question is, for whom will it always be a possibility? And just because it is in opposition does not mean there is a conflict, those are two different words with different meanings. If evil cannot affect the Celestial Realm then there is no conflict with evil there. Tell me how evil is a possibility in the Celestial Realm. This is why I asked you early on, are you talking about the conflict in a general sense or for an individual and then you proceeded to talk about symbolism and not answer the question. I am saying for a given individual who enters unto Christ' rest, enters spirit Paradise and then into the Celestial Kingdom, there is no more conflict; "we are all enlisted till the conflict is o'er, Happy are we!" That is pure happiness eternal = no conflict. Did we have evil before we gained knowledge of good and evil? If you say yes, then I have no idea what you are talking about, if you say no, well then there you go - a time with no conflict existed for that person.
  16. Why is the term "express image" important? What meaning does that have? Does Christ have to be in the "express image" of His Father? I think that is what is meant by being the Only Begotten, the apple didn't fall far from the tree. I have no idea what the pure creation looked like other than imagining that it was probably pretty similar to how Christ is described after resurrection (as in D&C 110:3). We all have different challenges in this life, so we all fell with different results based in our needs for specific tests and stewardships. Some might be put in a body with a genetic propensity for alcoholism, others with same sex attraction, others with anger issues and others with a gift of listening to the spirit, others might have been given great beauty for the challenges that come with that, etc. Yes, we all have different challenges given. Where much is given much is required - to me that implies that we were all given different challenges otherwise there would not be a comparison word such as "much". "Much" compared to what? Compared to those who weren't given "much". It is interesting that one of our Hymns goes like this; "When Jesus, the Anointed, Descended from aboveAnd gave himself a ransomTo win our souls with love--With no apparent beauty,That man should him desire" So, I don't think, necessarily that "express image" is an appearance thing alone, it probably is more of a description of lack of genetic corruption but that is my speculation. It is what we expect to gain when we have His image in our countenance - which is the reversal of the effects of the Fall.
  17. Would you describe a plants alleles from the paradisiacal state to the mortal one where it now grows "thorns" a change or the same ones? I like how F. Kent Nielson puts it; "The third clarification the gospel gives us is a reminder that time will change the order of nature—even in our present, mortal world. When the earth was “new,” before the Fall, it was in a paradisiacal state, and “if Adam had not transgressed … all things which were created must have … remained forever, and had no end” (2 Ne. 2:22). Both man and animals ate only plants (see Gen. 1:29–30). Adam and Eve would have had no children (see 2 Ne. 2:23). Apparently, the earth did not then bring forth “thorns … and thistles” to vex man (Gen. 3:18). These are just three differences between that state of the earth and our current one. Because of the Fall, “the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now,” waiting with “earnest expectation” to “be delivered from the bondage of corruption,” when the redemption shall bring its present condition to an end (Rom. 8:22, 19, 21). The present condition of the earth will end when Christ comes to reign personally upon the earth, giving it again its “paradisiacal glory” (A of F 1:10). For, “as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it … even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth” (D&C 77:12). This coming sanctification of our sphere will not result from the present natural order uniformly continuing its course. Instead, that order will change drastically because of the direct intervention of its Creator and Maintainer. All living things and even the elements of the earth “shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth” (D&C 101:24–25)." We already believe that the body of man was created one way, the paradisiacal state and then it received a new nature, one in which it could not sanctify itself, it could never naturally revert to the paradisiacal state as it is cursed and corrupted. The only way it could be turned back to how it was created is a "direct intervention of its Creator". So, when talking about the creation and the possibility of evolution, we are talking about two different "natures" already, one without "thorns" and one with, one without corruption (stays the same), one with corruption (changes).
  18. LDS do not separate the gospel from authority. One cannot live the gospel outside of the authority. Yes they can do the best they can and of course God takes into consideration what is available and what is possible to make His judgement. If the true authority resides on Earth at this time and is accessable then it is going to be hard to explain in the end, 'I did the best I could, I did what I believed was right.' What I described was not my judgement but what is explained for us in terms of the differences between the Celestial Kingdom and those that find their self in the Terrestrial Kingdom after judgement. This is what our scripture says (not me! so dont blame it on me, please!) D&C 76; "75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. 77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father." What you are having a hard time seeing past is the difference between "receiving the presence of the Son, but not the fulness of the Father." "These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness." The "craftiness of men" can be the teaching that one is doing enough in their current religion and then they don't look for the fulness not realizing there is something more. You have said clearly that you have received of his glory and receive the presence of the Son but to live the gospel means to not only do that but also the fulnes of the Father. If you don't believe me then try it, come and partake but if you think you have enough teaching and guidance and instruction from God (even if you always have more to do) then you will not learn of the assistance that comes from receivng the fulness of His covenants done in authority that are eternal and not just for this life only. If an LDS member thinks they could make a covenant with God such as with the Sacrament or baptism or receiving of the Holy Ghost through another authority other than the Holy Priesthood, then they are not living the gospel. We are unified in that ideal, this is not just my opinion of how to live the gospel. The articles of faith describes how to live the gospel, the 4th and 5th in particular;" 4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. 5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof." ... cant live the gospel principles without the authority.
  19. Thats why I cant understand why Traveler spoke of "eternal conflict". If the wicked can't enter, there is no conflict.
  20. I have been addressing the OP. The leaders of Christ Church, the one He established originally and restored again in the latter days gives us specific ways to live the gospel in our lives all the time. We have conferences, manuals, magazines, etc. to guide what to do to live the gospel. They are inspired to direct us in an ever changing world with new challenges and temptations all the time. The temptations my children face are different and even stronger than the ones I faced in my youth. Christ directs His church through living Prophets to guide us for our day as He has always done when His church is established. God is the judge, I have never said anything about judge ... not sure where you are getting that from. I would point out, though, in your post you say "I already do" and then in the next paragraph say that you don't have the attitude that you already do. I think that was my point. ... Doing everything includes taking on the covenants He has outlined, given by those that have authority and living up to those covenants. That isn't a judgement of those that haven't taken those covenants as bad, they can be good but haven't really lived the gospel fully. Our religion, if anything, claims that most everyone will receive a Kingdom of Glory, go to heaven .... thus the tougher choices are those between good, better, and best. In other words, LDS would have a hard time judging someone as bad, its not really on the spectrum of known outcomes.
  21. From a gospel doctrine stand point, what is missed if our temporary body (mortal body) was pre-formed through some kind of a controlled evolutionary process? After all this mortal body is not the same as the body of God that is eternal and is not the same as the one created in the Garden of Eden, this is not a heavenly body or a paradisiacal body. Nor does this body by itself, naturally, have the potential to be heavenly or eternal. So long as it returns to dust from where it came, why does it matter if the physical body came from whatever source or method, we are still spiritual children of God. How would it change your gospel understanding if the mortal body (by itself is not "man") did come from a fish?
  22. In other words, corruption is at the core of evolution, as you said "genetic change". Not so much change is described in the scriptures as "express image"; Hebrews; " 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person" D&C 138; " 40 Abel, the first martyr, was there, and his brother Seth, one of the mighty ones, who was in the express image of his father, Adam." Change may be okay for this world but better yet is to be not to far off the original copy, Adam and the Father, which is what the restoration from resurrection entails, reversing the effects of the Fall.
  23. Yeah, but when there are conflicting things to obey, as Joseph Smith discovered, one has to decide which teaching to obey. That makes it not so simple for someone who hasn't discovered the truth.
  24. Yes I equate it with following the chosen leaders of the living Church of Christ that have the power and authority from Christ.