Seminarysnoozer

Beyond my own life - I do not have any experience.  And my experience seems to be vastly different than yours.  For example, when I was single I did not get much in the way of direction in who I should date or marry - when I asked it seemed to be something I had to work out mostly of my own.  In essence there were no answers only promptings of opportunities to be considered.  I will confide with you concerning one of my silly failures.  I was having great difficulty in finding one lady that stood out in my life - there seemed to be so many while I was at BYU.  It was very confusing for me.  I prayed a great deal about this and then read in scripture how a servant looking for a wife for their master's son prayed and told to L-rd to bring someone to a well and offer them water.  At the time this seemed like a really good idea and I had been told by many (including my bishop) that I needed to get at it and find someone.  So I told the L-rd to help me out by having a young lady offer me water when I was thirsty.
 
Within a week it happened - something that had never happened before or since.  A very nice young lady of operate age and position spontaneously brought me a glass of water saying I looked thirsty.  Short story - though we were and remain friends this young lady was not interested in any dates with me much less a serious courtship. 
 
My life is full of such experiences.  I have received help and guidance but such assistance has always come after exhausting my own every efforts and few if any options remained.  Usually in my efforts (including prayer and other spiritual endeavors) I have been able to logically conclude the best resolution to my questions.  In discussing this with others - this seems to be the standard means of inspiration - Including things needed for my church callings as well.
 
I would love to have ease of responsibility as you find in your searches - but such is so seldom the case for me - I do not dare teach such a thing but rather encourage others to do all in their power - which includes prayer and even fasting along with a great many other efforts that I would call experiments) to try to accomplish something worthwhile and if we find something that fails or does not work - not to think that G-d does not love us or care to help us - but to get back up and find some means to continue.  Sometimes I wonder because of my own experiences, how it was so easy for Nephi to obtain the brass plates.   And along such lines one may have to learn the science of boat building or some other science despite others saying scripture would indicate that such scientific knowledge is not really necessary nor important for salvation.

I had hoped that for an example one might see something closer to their own home.  We are stewards that have dominion, gifts, callings or talents or what ever one may refer to our life journey.   As stewards; are we eating healthy and pursuing healthy life styles both in regards to spiritual and physical health.  Are we wise stewards of the wealth we have been given or do we adorn ourselves with fine clothing, comfortable dwellings and tech stuff beyond our "needs".  Do we seek understanding and wisdom in the "best books" of science, politics, economics, entertainment and religion or do we entertain and enlighten ourselves on a diet of the talents of others contributing little or nothing ourselves.
 
It seems to me that the nature of the "natural man" is to see and catalog well the sin of others, not just as individuals but as social, political or some other category, however so small the effects of such sins and then to diminish to near nothing the effects (however so prominent) our own, regardless of what impact such has on ourselves and those around us.
 
In essence we all think we will be saved in heaven from our own sins and that others, whoever they may be - just not us; will be damned forever in some hell or kingdom less than Celestial.
 
I do not know about everybody else but I am very concerned and my best plan is to beg as much as possible for any mercy or leniency possible - for me an everybody I know.

I will try to respond as best as I can to your questions.  In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there is not so much “official doctrine” as there is in many churches.  There is no real theology and thus there is not much in the way of scholarship or official scholars.  There is some doctrine but the reality is that, though the doctrine is somewhat different than most religious thought, there are very little doctrinal specifics.  Like scripture; though there is a tapestry of principles in doctrine the specifics are vague.   In essence LDS are very behavior oriented and specific but at the same time dogmatically vague.   It has been expressed that in such matters the effort is to teach correct principles and have people govern themselves.  Thus the church mission is in essence upside down and it is believed that the church structure and hierarchy is temporary and instituted to support and prepare the family (not individual per say) that we believe the family is what is eternal both in principle and actuality.   Thus the LDS understanding is that there is no place for an individual in heaven – that without family and relationship within that divine family (or if you will – oneness in the family of our Father in Heaven) it is impossible for heaven to exist.
 
Excommunication is not so much because of doctrine or to protect doctrine or to protect the church but to protect the family and ensure it is eternally viable and sustainable.  Thus excommunication in purpose is intended not to punish but to wipe an individual slate clean, to allow a reset and start over for an individual to repent and establish a new, one’s place in their family covenant before G-d.  In essence the single purpose of the church is to prepare a people (family including ancestors and descendants) to dwell forever in the society of G-d.  Also realizing that every individual person descended from Adam and Eve is ours and G-d’s family.
 
Since family is central to my understanding of G-d, his purpose, mercy, compassion and goodness – I see the history of the world much different than you do.  Thus Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not great leaders as they were great family men dedicated to preserving the eternal family covenant and example of family.  Other individuals of history focused on doctrine and theology – I do not see of much importance unless their efforts are in the sustaining, even by example, the family covenant – that I believe is important and the essence of true religion and understanding and believing in G-d as our Father.
 
Thus my general rule is about families – those that use scripture and other excuse to displace themselves or others from family – are not much use to me.  But those that dedicate themselves by covenant to family – I believe are rich soil for the seed of G-d otherwise hidden in scripture and in all creation that brings forth and adds to life.

Faith4,  Thank you for your post.  I wanted to respond specifically to your post for many reasons.  My particular journey seems to have been quite different than yours.  It appears to me that your love, knowledge and respect of G-d is based on and in Biblical scripture.  Mine is quite different – my love, knowledge, understanding and respect of G-d is despite Biblical scripture.  For me love and respect for G-d is a matter and result from my own experience, study and analysis.
 
I have found scripture unreliable in that, rather than foster consensus of logic and reason, I find scripture to be overly ambiguous; so much so that the more scripture is studied the more disagreement there seems to be in what exactly scripture is communicating and the greater there seems to be anger between those that disagree.  And this is not a recent or new phenomenon but a longtime historical result that has existed with the beginning of early Christian effort to canonize scripture and make heretics of those that disagree with the popular notions of scripture at a particular time and place.
 
Jesus did not say that his disciples could be identified by any particular interpretation of scripture but rather by the love such disciples have for others – a love and compassion particularly shown to extend to their enemies.  As a general rule (meaning that there are some few exceptions) I have personally found through a wide opportunity of experience that those dedicated to scripture and particular interpretations of scripture to be prominently among the least loving and compassionate towards others.
 
What I have found is that those that love and respect others (kind of along the lines to which Jesus spoke) – and I do not know or recall even a single exception – honor and respect themselves and their abilities to function honestly and rationally with others much more than with scripture.

Great points!
 
I guess I don't think about having faith in myself much because growing up with the LDS gospel we are taught at a young age that we are literally children of God. Remembering that fact is the trick.  It is hard not to see ourselves as anything more than our current self as opposed to the eternal being underneath.  It certainly changes perspective once there is a little understanding that we really do have a Father in Heaven.
 
I have 3 close girlfriends that joined the church over the years and when I look at their conversion process it was never about the details or the customs of the church but their basic belief in God and the relationship we have with God. That was the toughest hurdle to get over, then the rest of the discussions and learning came easy.  Thanks.

I wonder where the millennium part of the question asked comes into play. Probably from the idea that there are quotes along the lines of people who have young children die will be able to raise them in the millennium (though, personally, I think this idea is more akin to folk-doctrine). As the article suggests, no one will be denied promised blessings if faithful. But in the millennium?
 
It is an interesting thought though, and it really comes down to, and pertains to, the idea of raising physical, mortal children. In theory, the sands-of-the-sea posterity promise refers to the having of spirit children. But -- there is a certain feeling of missing out that comes from not being able to raise physical, mortal children. I guess the question is, when all is said and done, will having missed out on that opportunity really matter in the eternities or not? Or will it be more like a child complaining that they never got to...I dunno...color with crayons as a child. That doesn't mean that when they're an adult that they're going to want to spend their days coloring or that they'll want to revert back to their childish state so they can enjoy childish things once more. (Maybe there's a better "childish" example than coloring...but hopefully my point comes across.)

Thanks. That's the first I've heard of the Gospel Fundamentals manual. For anyone else that's curious, the quoted section can be found here: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-fundamentals/chapter-34-the-millennium?lang=eng
 
Unfortunately, the manual doesn't cite its sources. From my knowledge, the first sentence was something Joseph Smith said (you can find it in the JS manual) specifically about governing with Christ, but the first part of the second sentence was taught by Joseph Fielding Smith (the next section in the manual uses the JFS teaching). I have no idea where the second part of the second sentence is coming from (the next section in the manual reaffirms that missionary work will be done, but now the resurrected persons are absent - they're only mentioned with respect to temple work).
 
I'm not trying to pick on you SeminarySnoozer. This is a new teaching for me and I'm trying to find its origin.

You sparked a thought about faith in people rather than "something".  As I thought on this I became convinced that we must first have faith in ourselves before we can have faith in others.  This is because if we do not have faith that we can identify others in which we can have faith - then we will never be able to have faith in them.  Therefore, we must have faith enough in our own ability to identify someone worthy of our having faith in them.
 
The more I thought on this the more I am convinced that all faith we exercise is in reality an extension of the faith we have in ourselves. 
 
Thank you Seminary, this a whole new landscape of understanding for me.  I deal with many atheists in my profession and I realized that at least in part the inability to have true faith in G-d is hampered a great deal in an individual's tentative faith in themselves.  This also means that we cannot have faith in attributes of G-d that we do not understand as worthy for ourselves.
 
Your insight bring much more to the table but at this point I think I will back off some and see what others are harvesting or discarding concerning the idea that we cannot appreciate in others (including G-d) what we cannot rationally see through faith we exercise in ourselves.

In this matter I will speak only for my self.  It seems to me that our experience with sin is a good news bad news kind of thing.  I will use the example of soiled clothing as the example of sin.  The bad news is that sin soils the clothing that is our life - not just our mortal life but our eternal forever life.  Sin does not just look bad on our clothing but it stinks really badly and never goes away.  The good news is that there is a way to wash our clothing.  It is called baptism and is only provided by Jesus Christ who was ordained a High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek.  I believe the only way to get your garments clean is by the single means of baptism provided by Jesus Christ or someone properly acting as the proxy of Christ (example - the apostles ordained to that same order by Jesus).
 
More bad news - There are a lot of counterfeits claiming to be able to get our clothing clean but despite claims (some very exotic or emotional claims) - just will not work.  The good news is that temples have been build so that everyone, regardless of time and place can get their clothing  washed with the one baptism that works.

We believe that was the test that took place before coming here, what is called the "first estate".  That is where we had all the facts, all the truth before us.  Everyone here chose correctly and therefore will merit a Kingdom of Heaven through the saving grace of Christ.  The test of mortality was meant to take place with minimal information as to reflect our true, primitive nature and drives, "the desire of our heart".
 
Now we face the test of true character, whether we will actually do the thing we said we would or not.  It is a test of integrity, or 'how far would you go?' 
 
We all believe in Christ, we sometimes call this the "light of Christ" and it is ours to ignore as we chose to ignore our spiritual side in this life.  Sin, then is a reflection of character, not a mistake that someone can say, "oops, my bad."  This probationary period we call mortality is the only chance we have to change character, a "change of heart,"  or being born again.  After this, our trajectory is set.
 
I explain it to my children this way; A soldier in boot camp will vow to never leave a fallen soldier behind, they all agree to that standard (like what we agree to in pre-mortal life).  But, in the heat of the battle only some will actually follow through with that standard (integrity - the test of mortality). Just like in this life, only some will actually follow through with their professed belief in the God's plan, to require a Savior, and have enough faith to follow His gospel despite being in the "heat of the battle".
 
So, sin is really bad in terms of it reflecting our true nature, our difficult to change character. It is a deep hole that is difficult to get out of but it can be done through repentence.  

If not mentioned already, Moroni's specification that he is not strong in writing and mentions if there are mistakes they are the mistakes of men and fools mock.
 
Some revelations are pure, unadultered writings, while others are probably similar to my own revelations. 

It looks like you are as puzzled as Enoch was at seeing a G-d who suffers. He asks G-d three times not ‘Why’ but ‘How’ he can weep. And keep in mind this is pre-condescension.
 
 
 
Certainly we are taught that G-d is full of compassion and one definition of compassion is “to suffer together”.
 
To me it’s simple, G-ds love is greater than ours and so is his suffering.
 
If not then perhaps we have his nature wrong and he truly exists without body, parts or passions.

I cannot express what your inputs have meant to me - they teach me things I have not otherwise considered.  Thank you for who you are.
 
I am not sure that we can make a choice that does not bring about a change and at the same time I do not believe that without a change that we have really made a meaningful choice.  Like your daughter - she may think about leaving at 21 but until she leaves she has not actually made the choice to leave.  Saying you will do something or thinking you will do something is not the same as the choice to do that something.
 
As to being alive in Christ or one with G-d:  I wish I could tell you that I have experience and I know about such things.  Though I have had some small insights I have always come to realize that I am yet a long way from my home of such things.  This is why I have the handle “The Traveler”.  It is because I am a stranger traveling in a strange place far from my home.  Though from time to time I find some comfort but then only to realize this is not where I belong.  If you or anyone has found our home – I am most interested.

Ah, OK. The first question is very simple. When the Fall happened, there were two types of deaths that occured. Physical and spiritual, as we all know. But that was the FIRST spiritual death because we were separated completely from our Father in heaven. The veil over all our minds though, making us forget where we were, makes it bearable. The SECOND spiritual death will only occur to those who completely reject the Gospel and will suffer for their sins themselves. They will be separated again for a long while and then return to inherit the Telestial Kingdom when thier suffering is finished.
 
As to the second question, whether our mortal bodies have any saving grace to them by themselves, well, I really don't think so. HOWEVER, the body serves as much more than an anchor weighing us down. It is through it that we experience the world around us. If CONTROLLED PROPERLY, it can work mostly to our benefit. But if the body were calling the shots... That's the thing. Satan can tempt us and take control of us through the body if the spirit submits to it. So if the body was in charge, the Adversary would have full sway over us.
 
If we take that factor out though, our bodies probably wouldn't act so devilishly but only just. The behavior of the body is simply animalistic, doing what it wants, when it wants, no matter if it's good or bad. Survival and pleasure are its two goals. There is simply no scripture out there that supports the body having any spirit-like personality traits.

Just a little thought - Often we think of Babel in terms of the tower - but there is much more.  Babel was the beginning or founding of Babylon.  Anciently Babylon was most famous for its economy and was the beginning of what is known as the banking industry.  It was Babylon that developed the strategy of debt to control economies of individuals as well as entire nations.  Prophets of the restoration have warned against debt (usury) in contrast to the Babylonian concept of getting what you want now and paying for it later and making money immorally.  This is somewhat different view to what being worldly means that many gloss over and do not pay much attention to.   
 
There are some religious scholars (including Hugh Nibley) that believe that the sin of Sodom was sexual deviancies and the sin of Gomorrah was the sin of debt and usury.  None of which will be part of the Celestial kingdom.

Children who die before the age of 8 are not at risk. This is an LDS doctrine. They are not at risk because of the atonement. They need the atonement, there is no question. And because of the effect of the atonement they, their spirit, never become corrupted.
To answer your rhetorical question, somewhat, the scriptures tell us that there are things that are not corrupted. Do they exist? Yes. 2 Nephi; 9; " 51 Wherefore, do not spend money for that which is of no worth, nor your labor for that which cannot satisfy. Hearken diligently unto me, and remember the words which I have spoken; and come unto the Holy One of Israel, and feast upon that which perisheth not, neither can be corrupted, and let your soul delight in fatness."
How can we feast on something that is not corrupted if there is nothing that exists in our world that isn't corrupted?
The religious definition of corruption pertains to things that are not lost or that are not temporary like earthly traits and treasures. Our body turns to dust but our spirit lives on. This already throws the spirit into the non-corrupted category. Helaman 8; " 25 But behold, ye have rejected the truth, and rebelled against your holy God; and even at this time, instead of laying up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where nothing doth corrupt, and where nothing can come which is unclean, ye are heaping up for yourselves wrath against the day of judgment."
D&C 38; " 11 For all flesh is corrupted before me; and the powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, among the children of men, in the presence of all the hosts of heaven—"
When one takes a test in school, often times it is a "closed-book" test and the chalk board is covered and one cannot discuss the answers with others in the class etc. Why not take the test with open book and discussing it with others? Because then the test is something other than a test of self, it might become a test of how well one gleans answers off of others etc. The test for the fund of knowledge and spiritual prowess was the first estate test. We all passed that test. Now we are participating in the closed book test, the veil covers our ability to obtain the answer without much effort. The test becomes one of integrity, are we going to do the things we are asked to do despite not being able to use all of our spiritual faculties. It forces us to either depend on Faith in Christ or things of the world, including or own physical body drives. It becomes a test of our true nature, what really is in our heart. That is accomplished through the veil. The veil blocks and limits and lessens but it doesn't corrupt. It lets a small part of our spiritual traits come through but that part is still us and will continue through thus not being corrupted. Just because it is a fraction of self does not make it corrupted but makes it "fallen".
I played soccer in college and I remember spending a lot of our time in little small two on two drills. It helped during the game to be a master of the small setting. This life allows us to focus on small stewardship so when we enter the world where everything is opened up we've had a chance to focus on the most fundamental traits, trust in the Lord. The separation related to spiritual death is the method to make the game smaller and focus on the fundamentals but does not make one corrupted or different as it relates to those fundamentals.

Thanks for starting a new thread!
I hope I don't misdirect this thread.
My question as to your presentation of the issue would be, why are we equating spiritual death with spiritual corruption?
I guess this depends on what is meant by "corruption". To me, corruption is not just something made less than whole, it is a tendency to drive away from wholeness. A naturally corrupt entity would progressively move away from God, it would be an enemy to God. I don't see our spirits as such when we enter into this world. I don't see our spirits as naturally wanting to move away from God. Yes, we are spiritually cut off and bound but the direction our spirits desire to move is not in a corrupted direction. We are put lower on a lower rung but the direction has not changed. We are all born with the light of Christ which makes us naturally want to be like Our Heavenly Father. We are placed in a disadvantaged point temporarily without all of our spiritual faculties available but that does not mean the natural tendency of the spirit is to move away from God.
This has to be couched in the fact that while we are here we are dual beings both with a physical nature and a spiritual nature - there must needs be opposition in all things. The combination of the two makes up the soul of man and therefore while we are here the overall natural tendency of man is to sin, the natural man is an enemy to God. But keep in mind that is only when we are accountable and is speaking of the spirit-body combo, not just the state of the spirit alone. Like adding an odd and an even number the result is still odd but we are not going to call the even number 'odd'. The body's physical tendencies overpower the spiritual ones unless a person pays attention to the spiritual influences by remaining as a child humble and having a broken heart (the physical nature is subdued) and a contrite spirit (the spirit wanting to be like God through the feeling of remorse and penitence).
There are many examples (see the other thread) in which the apostles have stated that children who die before the age of 8 remain spiritually pure and have never experienced sin. We enter this life spiritually pure and clean but separated from God. I think there can be a difference between spiritual death but still alive in Christ, the light of Christ and therefore not corrupted but simply made lower or bound or as it is said in the scriptures "according to the flesh".
I am curious as to what specific doctrine would be at risk in your mind if the spirit was indeed pure upon entering into this world and stays pure through the age of accountability. What specific doctrine does that threaten and especially if it stays pure through Christ' atonement? What doctrine is threatened if little children receive a protected status, spiritually, through Christ' atonement?
We are warned, in fact, by Mormon to be careful not to think little children are corrupt. Moroni 8 : "8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me." and " 14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism."
It sounds to me that it is way more risky to think that little children start out "corrupted".

We took care of that requirement in the first estate test.  That phase of the testing is over!
 
This life, the second estate test, is to see if we will do the things we are asked to do based in faith in Christ.
 
Why do you think we have to retake the first estate test again? 
 
The desire of the heart test is more of a test of how badly one wants it.  It is a priority test which requires a spectrum, the spectrum being from carnal to spiritual.  Where on the spectrum do we stand, more or less on the carnal or the spiritual side. 
 
Elder Bednar stated this very clearly in the April 2013 conference; "And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).
The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."
 
This life is not a test based in quantity of knowledge. 
 
Let me ask you, is the level on one's intelligence in this life a talent, a temporary gift or is it self?
 
In other words, if someone is born with Down's syndrome, is that self or the body, just speaking of intelligence alone?
 
Then, likewise, when someone is born with great intelligence in this life it is a temporary status, a talent which is part of the test, where much is given much is expected.  All the variance in intelligence is taken into account at judgement day.  The level of intelligence in this life itself is not the test, it is what we do with what we are given temporarily.  Intelligence in this life is simply a stewardship, it is not ownership!!

I think there is a misunderstanding.  We will receive according to the desire of our heart - not the desire of G-d.  (See D&C 137:9)  I believe that part of the Plan of Salvation is to gain knowledge from which we may define our desire.  It is about agency and choice.  How can anyone make a choice in ignorance?   I do not believe for a second that the agency G-d gives to man requires that we makes blind choices of ignorance.  In fact I believe that is the essence of Satan's efforts and in part why he is called the deciever.

SeminarySnoozer, your entire post really spoke to me and gave me a lot of food for thought. I know I need to work through my weaknesses and that the Lord will make them strong, and that he will do so in his own time. And I know that even if my weakness becomes a strength that it does not necessarily translate to desire. I guess I need to keep in mind that I am here to do the will of my Heavenly Father, whether it is my will or not. I also know that if I truly love Him and am obedient to Him, eventually my will will become the same as His, even if that process takes my entire life.
You are so right. Thank you for the reminder! There is a little girl in Nursery who will only go to me. Not to my husband, not to our assistant, not to any other helper we may have in there. For whatever reason, that little girl needs me. So maybe, at least at this point in time, I need to be at church not for me, but for her.
And, of course, there is the matter of the example I set for my own children. How can I expect them to stay strong in the Gospel and be obedient even when they don't want to if I'm not willing to do so myself?
Thank you everyone! You have all really helped me to remember why it's important for me to go to church even though I usually don't want to. And you've helped me recommit to do so.

I am thinking that without a clear precise and accurate understanding of the Celestial Kingdom - we are fooling ourselves (perhaps even deceiving ourselves) in thinking we want to be there for all eternity.

I am having second thought about this post - thinking that we are disconnected and talking about two different things or ideas.  So I want to apologize and see if I can get on the same page with your thinking.  Can you give me any examples where there has been a preponderance of overwhelming empirical evidence of human discovery that is contrary to revealed divine truths?   It has been my observation that the caution given concerning human theories is more related to manmade religious theories and not so much divine criticism intended to direct seekers of truth towards rejecting empirical evidence.