JayGlad

And I believe that it's the "opinion" and "speculation" amongst the members that causes so much contention (another thread here) and leads weaker members away from the truth. The restored gospel of Jesus Christ is not a gospel of speculation; His Church is not a church of opinion; His doctrines are not doctrines of conjecture. Yet far too many of us have allowed speculation, opinion, and conjecture to become part of our personal beliefs and in some cases, even our teachings. Anything less than the truth is false. Anything less than light is darkness. On more than one occasion, Elder Bruce R. McConkie, of the Quorum of the Twelve, taught: “There is no salvation in believing a false doctrine.” Elder McConkie went on and listed several axioms (an axiom is a statement or proposition that is regarded as being factual or true). Three of the axioms he gave were: “Truth, diamond truth, truth unmixed with error, truth alone leads to salvation. “Gospel doctrines belong to the Lord, not to men. They are his. He ordained them, he reveals them, and he expects us to believe them. “We are called upon to reject all heresies and cleave unto all truth. Only then can we progress according to the divine plan” (The Seven Deadly Heresies, an address given at Brigham Young University, June 1, 1980). There is so much truth to be learned (and applied), I cannot understand why we speed so much of our limited time discussing opinions and speculations, neither of which will lead us to our exaltation.

Having gone back and read your edited reply, allow me one last response. Then I'm finished with this thread. Marc, I wish I were there with you so you could see and hear me, because I am being as sincere and gentle as I know how. I don't expect an immediate reply--I don't expect a reply at all, really. Just offering food for serious thought. Please, consider the following: If you truly believe that Jesus Christ, His atonement and the Holy Ghost are incapable or unable to bless us, to change our hearts to the point that we can judge as He does, what does that imply? Anyone who believes within his heart of hearts that we cannot judge righteously (or develop any other divine attribute), then he will not try. If he never tries, he will never gain the ability to do so (or develop that divine attribute, whatever it is). It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Ultimately, it an indication of a lack of faith, and faith we must have and exercise if we are to become like Him. It is possible! If I may, I'd make one last suggestion. Stop focusing on the fallen nature (fool, imperfect, sinner) and focus on being a son of God, one who is of royal birth, one who is one of God's convent people. Focus on the eternal nature--see and recognize your potential as a God. It is life changing! We must believe (have the faith) that He can change us just as He says He can. We must not only believe in Christ, we must believe what He says as it pertains to us individually. When we do, then, wonderful and miraculous things begin to happen in our lives and to our character, through our Savior's atonement, not through anything we do ourselves.

OK, I see. This is one of weaknesses of forums. Comments can pass one another. You did not put words in my mouth. Please, do accept my sincere apology. It has been chalked up to a miscommunication. Thank you!

Yes, I was. You, me, Suzie, everyone of us make judgments practically every minute of the day. All of us here are making judgments as we move through this thread. You said, "You are right. I am imperfect. I am a fool. I am a sinner." I never said any of those things! I didn't think any of those things. I do think you are mistaken, but that is based solely on what you have written, nothing more, nothing less. Therefore, based on what you have said, I "judge" that you do not believe that men can judge righteously, even though Jesus has commanded us to do so.

Suzie, it was understood. I hope your quotes help others to understand. Oh, FWI, "stewardship" is not limited to a formal calling.

Please, DO NOT put words in my mouth! That is most unbecoming.

Can't you see you are still insisting that love and righteous judgment are exclusive? They are not! They are so intertwined that they cannot be separated when done by the Spirit. You and others here are of the opinion that judging is limited to seeing only the bad in people and things. Nothing could be further from the truth! That tells me you do not fully understanding the eternal concept of judging.

Indeed and amen!

WOW! I would urge you to reconsider what you just wrote. Then, I would strongly encourage you to read and ponder the following: Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment. For with what judgment ye shall judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (JST Matthew 7:2-3) Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (John 7:24) Judge not according to your traditions, but judge righteous judgment. (JST John 7:24) Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again. (Alma 41:14) And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit. (D&C11:12) That I may proceed to bring to pass my act, my strange act, and perform my work, my strange work, that men may discern between the righteous and the wicked, saith your God. (D&C 101:95) Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy. (Proverbs 31:9) Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil. For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night. For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged. Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ. (Moroni 7:14-19) For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also. (Moroni 7:5; see Moroni 7:6-13) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Matthew 16:27) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (James 2:17-18) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Revelation 20:12) And they shall teach my people [the difference] between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; [and] they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths. (Ezekiel 44:23-24) President Joseph F. Smith taught that there are some prerequisites to enjoying such inspiration (righteous judgment): “The only safe way for us to do, as individuals, is to live so humbly, so righteously and so faithfully before God that we may possess his Spirit to that extent that we shall be able to judge righteously, and discern between truth and error.” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 45) It is vividly clear from the scriptures that the Lord has commanded us to learn how to judge as He judges--in righteousness! He has commanded us to be perfect, even as He is. It is stunning to me that anyone here would suggest that no man can be righteous or can judge righteously is an indication of a misunderstanding and/or misinterpreting of our responsibility as a covenant people as handed down by our Savior and King. If we elect to shun our responsibilities in our efforts to become like Him, then we will never become like Him! If what you say were true, then what of the Gifts of the Spirit? What of the Spirit of Discernment, which is required when judging righteously? Consider the following: *Discernment, Gift of The gift of discernment consists of the spiritual quality or skill of being able to see or understand, especially that which is hidden or obscure. This ability is shared in a general way by all of God's children, but “discerning of spirits” is one of the gifts of the spirit that comes, under certain circumstances, specially from God (1 Cor. 12:10; D&C 46:23). The fuller gift of discerning in all spiritual matters—to know whether their occurrence is of God or not—is given by the Lord to “such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church” (D&C 46:27). To possess this gift is to receive divinely revealed understanding of opposing spirits—the spirit of God and the spirit of the devil. Persons possessing such a gift also correctly perceive the right course of action (D&C 63:41). Not only can the power of discernment distinguish good from evil (Moro. 7:12-18), the righteous from the wicked (D&C 101:95), and false spirits from divine (D&C 46:23), but its more sensitive operation can also make known even “the thoughts and intents of the heart” of other persons (Heb. 4:12; D&C 33:1). “The gift of discernment [embodies] the power to discriminate between right and wrong [and] arises largely out of an acute sensitivity to spiritual impressionsto detect hidden evil, and more importantly to find the good that may be concealed. The highest type of discernment uncovers [in others] their better natures, the good inherent within them” (Richards, p. 371). Every Latter-day Saint has spiritual leaders who, by virtue of their callings, are entitled to the gift of discernment to enable them to lead and counsel correctly. “The gift of discernment is essential to the leadership of the Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]. I never ordain a bishop or set apart a president of a stake without invoking upon him this divine blessing, that he may read the lives and hearts of his people and call forth the best within them. The gift and power of discernment [are] essential equipment for every son and daughter of God. The true gift of discernment is often premonitory. A sense of danger should be heeded to be of value” (Richards, p. 371). Bibliography Richards, Stephen L. "The Gifts of the Spirit." IE 53 [May 1950]:371. Smith, Joseph Fielding, ed. TPJS, pp. 202-215. Salt Lake City, 1938. Leon R. Hartshorn (from Encyclopedia of Mormonism, ed., Daniel H. Ludlow)

It seems as though you had implied it. Sorry.

I never suggested otherwise, did I?

Amen!

Suzie, I agree with you, but at the same time I have to say, "It depends on so many things." Do some misuse the term "righteous judgment"? Certainly! I would suggest that those who do, obviously, neither understand nor correctly apply it. Having said that, make no mistake that we--members of the Church of Jesus Christ--have been given a charge to learn how to judge righteously. The unfortunate truth is that those who have yet learned how, condemn the those who have. How ironic!

Ah, but you see, that in and of itself is a judgment. Not only that, but you are strongly implying that those who judge a righteous judgment are incapable of loving. You're also implying that judging and loving are exclusive of each other. How judgmental is that!?

I would submit the following: If my and my children's perception of my love for them is based on my willingness to acquiesce to their unrighteous desires, and to participate in them in any way, shape or form (such as a celebration), then I would say that neither of us understands what Christ-like love truly is.

There appears to be a fair of amount of this going on over the past few days in a couple of threads.

Frankly, I have a real problem with members of the Church who toss out the question: "If you have to ask, then you shouldn't do it." While taking the missionary discussions, had I followed such "counsel" (based upon its seriously flawed logic) then I would not have joined the Church. "ASKING" (can I emphasis it more?) is a fundamental principle! The scriptures are replete with the admonition to "ask," "seek," and "knock." When we do these things by the Spirit, then we are promised that we shall "find" the answers (and more). Using the above retort does nothing but expose the laziness the of one posing it to the questioner.

Not meaning to be argumentative, but that isn't entirely accurate. Actually, the Fort Lauderdale Florida temple did not experience any opposition. There were no challenges--not one--from the time it was announced to the time it was dedicated. Those of us who were involved were absolutely flabbergasted. It was, in our estimation, a miracle!

Skalenfehl, I apologize for any misunderstanding. However, your use of the adulterous woman does not fit here. You're bringing up ideas, concepts and examples that neither fit within nor answer the specifics of my original question. That is, no doubt, why I am confused. The adulterous woman's situation does not a parallel a person claiming to be a disciple of Christ while advocating sinful behavior, such as same-sex marriage.

Living in a fallen state neither reconciles nor justifies sinful behavior. If it did, there would be no need for a Savior and the Atonement. Regarding the adulterous woman. The Lord did judge her, but He didn't condemn her--big difference! President Kimball asked, "But did the Lord forgive the woman? Could he forgive her [in her current condition]?" Then he says, "There seems to be no evidence of forgiveness. His command to her was, 'Go, and sin no more.' He was directing the sinful woman to go her way, abandon her evil life, commit no more sin, transform her life. He was saying, Go, woman, and start your repentance; and he was indicating to her the beginning step-to abandon her transgressions." Amulek taught that we cannot be saved in our sins. Think about the depth, breadth and implications of that doctrinal truth. We are members of the House of Israel. We are the covenant people. We are God's elect, as Paul refers to us. Do we as a people fully understand what that means? "A chosen people are called upon to make choices that evidence their covenant with Christ and their loyalty to the fathers. A chosen people are called upon to be true to their covenants. Israel is called to live the gospel.... Israel is called be the light to a world that travels largely in darkness." This cannot be accomplished with one foot in the covenant and the other foot in the world. Plainly put, righteousness requires obedience. If we do not understand the gospel, or worse, if we choose to understand only cherry-picked parts, then it is vital that we come to an understanding before it becomes "everlasting too late."

WOW... 77 pages! Captain Phillips

Been following this thread for a while. Not sure what to say until now. Being converted to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ as an adult, perhaps I see things differently than others. I have to ask, in all sincerity, how can anyone who claims to have a testimony of the divinity of Jesus Christ (and all that implies) stand up and proudly say he supports gay marriage (and all that implies)? The two declarations are diametrically opposed. In all honestly, it's beyond my ability to comprehend.

Not that we need to know (we don't!), but it depends upon what the "truth" was. There are occasions where telling the truth, because of the nature of the sin, requires excommunication. For example, murder, the deliberate and unjustified taking of human life, is one example that comes to mind.

I'm not trying to glib, but... Would the Lord as stand as best man for someone in a same sex marriage? EDIT: Posted before reading entire thread. The question has already been asked. It's still a good question, and it appears that a few have answered it.

No, an excommunicated person is no longer under covenant. That's what "excommunicated" means. A covenant is a special relationship with Jesus Christ that a person enters into. It is a two-way contract. The Lord promises "A" if we promise "B". The terms are set by the Lord for the promised reward, i.e., exaltation. By holding membership in the kingdom of God on earth (His Church), we are in a covenant relationship with God. When a covenant person (member) fulfills that covenant which he is under, the result is blessings during life and exaltation in the next life. A broken covenant is the same as a willful breach of contract. The contract (covenant) is null and void on both parties sides. By breaking this covenant relationship, that person forfeits all attached blessings. That excommunicated person no longer a member of the covenant people. By the process of excommunication the guilty party is removed from the covenant--his name is no longer on the records of the Church. He is no longer a member. He is no longer under covenant. The result of covenant breaking is just that, a result--a consequence of willful action(s), not a "punishment" per se. To punish is to "to inflict a penalty for the commission of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation." If I stick my hand in the fire, I get burned--a result or consequence of my willful action. If I jump off the Empire State Building, I splatter on the sidewalk--a result or consequence of my willful action. Neither are a punishment. Covenant making and covenant breaking is an eternal law, not much different than the law of gravity. When you live by the law (aerodynamics) you're blessed (stay aloft). When you break the law (try to fly on your own accord) you suffer the consequences (splatter on the ground). Such is the law of covenant making. So the person who breaks his covenants will suffer the consequences of his willful actions automatically (just like jumping off the building). There will be no further "punishment" for the breach, the results were put into place the instant the covenant was broken. Remember, those who live a celestial law will be resurrected to a celestial glory. Those live a terrestrial law will be resurrected to a terrestrial glory. Those who live a telestial law will be resurrected to a telestial glory. Nothing more, nothing less. King David is a perfect example.