ehkape

In addition to the previous post: I feel the only way to resolve concerns like yours (and mine) is through a spiritual witness. I tried differently before, but all attempts to resolve my questions on an intellectual level were not satisfying. I read books, history, BYU studies publications, FAIR, FARMS, you name it. I learned many things I didn't know before. But it didn't help just to "learn" about the past. I got to a point, when I didn't know which sources I could trust. I felt deceived by the whole world so to say. But with that spiritual witness an assurance came back into my life. It took me several years to allow myself to feel that Spirit again. I can't speak for you but for me part of the problem was that I felt so betrayed learning about the unpopular parts of church history, that I didn't allow myself to listen to that still small voice.

No. What I am saying is that I gained a very powerful spirtual witness. A witness given thruogh the Holy Ghost that was way stronger than any of my doubts. AWitness that confirmed to me the sacred calling of elder Bednars apostleship. A witness that confirmed to me that the gospel is true and its teachings great. And I noticed a change in my life too. I feel alot happier now. My approach to others is much more cheerful.

DKM88, I believe I know how you are feeling right now. I have been down the same road for the last 3 years now. I returned from my mission with a firm testamony which I belived would never be shaken. But All that history stuff you mentioned in your posts were just screaming out too loud "How can you still belive?" It tears you apart to sort of believe in the church but at the same time not to be able to accept major parts of it. You asked how to deal with it... First of all: It's the toughest thing I know of so far. It's like fighting yourself. Your core beliefs are taken and ripped apart. There might be family and friends involved. They might not understand. Most TBMs don't understand, how someone can dare to question such a thing as holy scripture. I've been on the edge of quitting and leaving the church a few times. Partly because of this forum, too. Some of the answers I got just hurt because I didn't have the impression my concerns were taken serious. (I hope you other guys may learn to be a bit more understanding) Anyway, so I've been dealing with all my questions for about 3 years now. Last week I "made a decision" to believe again. Elder Bednar held a fireside in our stake and I could feel the Spirit so stongly. I prepared for the meeting by asking the Lord in prayer whether E. Bednar was a true and honest apostle or not. And my feelings just didn't leave any doubt. Yes, he is an apostle, a disciple of Jesus Christ. How could the church he represents possibly have gone astray? There was another thing, that kept coming to my mind. Something like 'You live now in 2011 and not back in the day 1830' Just let it go. Ok, that doesn't resolve any of the historic issues I have with the church, but it sets them into perspective. They lost much of their importance. I'D rather focus on the blessings that come from believing in Christ as my Savior. I feel like a huge burden has just been lifted from my shoulders. I hope this has been of any help to you. I guess, nobody can talk away your concerns. Maybe it will take time to come to terms with the matter.

Ok, I think I'm done with this forum. I express a concern that to me is serious and most of what I get as response is either telling me I am short of faith, nitpicking or just too worried about nothing. It doesn't worry me a bit, that people go off script during their talk. Yes, I do it all the time when I give a talk. Usually because I feel its the right thing to say and I feel the spirit prompts me to. The thing I don't get is: Why pretend as if there were things, Elder Packer DIDN'T say, when he DID. Where is the point in watching GC if I can't trust the message anymore? you can go off script and deliver a great talk. But if you record the talk or put it into writing AFTERWARDS and leave out whole sentences, thats just not right. Maybe it has been done in the past, I never noticed so far. But even if its common practise, is it correct? I live in Germany, a country with a very sad history of 2 World Wars. What if our history books were written that way? Leaving out bits and pieces here and there? I know you can't really compare the two, but maybe it helps you understand why its so important to me to be accurate. PS: To all those who'd rather talk about pumpkin pie than what this thread is about... I'd be interested in a good all american recepie as well. Thanx

Its amazing to see the huge interest in discussing Elder Packers talk. (Thousands of views say all there has to be said about it.) The discussion so far has been about understanding and misunderstanding him and what we make of it. What worries me about the whole situation is that nobody seems to care that his talk was edited afterwards. Come on, he is the acting president of the quorum of the twelve. Surely his talk was inspired. It may even have been the word of God. We just sustained him and the others as Prophet, Seer and Revelator. Why should there be the need to edit an inspired talk afterwards?

Ok, lets forget about the word "functioning". My question is: Why build a temple like Kirtland that was used for meetings etc but not for baptism, initiatories or endowments. My answer would be because those ordinances were revealed later. Fair enough. But why should we go back to such a kind of temple (without endowment)? Doesn't make sense to me to do it.

Just curious, what makes you believe that? The scriptures you gave didn't help me understand it. Why did we change from the functional temple in Kirtland to the ones we have today if we might switch back again. Its a bit confusing to me.

very good point hemidakota, God can answer our prayers outside of the temple as well. But I think one might be more receptive to the Spirits promptings if you focus on it: The temple is such a place where you are focused very much on spiritual things. Prophets often got revelations when they were seperated from the world, Moses on the mount, Joseph in the grove of trees. While I still belive the temple is a very good place to "commune with Jehova", our prayers at home could (and should) be as meaningful.

Remember that the first copies of the bok of mormon were without any verse numbers or footnotes at all. And they sure did convert a lot of people - even strong enough to leave their homes and start new life. At least that would not take away from the book, but maybe make it easier to read (but more difficult to find a certain scripture)

used to go once or twice a year and stay there for a week. I lived in a different part of the country and the temple was about a 6 hour ride away. (via the "autobahn" where we have no speed limits most of the time) Now I live a lot closer to it ... and haven't been for over a year.

Here's a good reference from the Book of Mormon, Mosiah 26:29: " 29 Therefore I say unto you, Go; and whosoever transgresseth against me, him shall ye judge according to the sins which he has committed; and if he confess his sins before thee and me, and repenteth in the sincerity of his heart, him shall ye forgive, and I will forgive him also." I think it emphasizes what I said before. You have to make your confession before God and the appointed priesthood leader.

If you look at the topical guide, it gives Esra 10:11 as first sripture reference. The people transgressed and the prophet tells them to repent: "11 Now therefore make confession unto the LORD God of your fathers, and do his pleasure: and separate yourselves from the people of the land, and from the strange wives." Our confession should be to God. He is the one who can forgive. Its Jesus Christ who died for our sins to make us whole again. Nobody else can do that. The bishop can't. The stake pres. can't. It's Jesus and his atonement alone. But if you read the complete story in Esra the prophet already knew the transgression of the people. Back in the Old Testament days, to repent also meant to offer burnt sacrifices. To offer sacrifice, you had to bring your animal/offering to the priest who did the ceremony. So in a way, the people confessed to the priest who offered the sacrifice on their behalf. Today, we don't offer animal sacrifice, because Jesus fullfilled the law and gave the new one. Maybe you could compare confessing to your bishop to the Israelites who went to the priest and asked for his service. ehkape ***btw - that's just me trying to make sense out of what I read...***

wingnut and jd, I don't want to argue with you on this topic that really isn't a big deal to me. I was just trying to say that there ARE books we are encouraged to buy. You could call them basic necessaties or whatever, I don't care. regards ehkape

No, I'm only saying there is mony involved. And we have to be aware of it

no, I'm not saying that at all. A missionary needs to have study material, especially the scriptures. But most missionaries are called to a different country which means they need a NEW set of scriptures in the NEW language they will preach the gospel in. And that usually costs money. And yes, I happen to have quite a few books in my private library as well, but not in the language I might need if I was called to serve a mission in Spain, France, Japan or wherever. Just to make it clear - I'm not saying thats a problem. I'm just saying that someone spends money on it, and someone earns money on it. Thats what buisiness is about. Please check yourself DeseretBook.com - Search for 'preach my gospel' I believe its 9 USD on Deseret Book No, but if you want to practise on the piano at home, or sing with the family at home evening, or take it with you to a fireside you need your own copy. There was a new german translation a few years ago that members were "encouraged" to buy. It's not the cross-referencing part that was important, but the whole content was revised. Verses don't read the same in the old and new edition. We were told not to use the old edition. They would probably not kick you out, but its kind of difficult if you have sunday school and people have different versions. Its not that people are not able to afford it (A full set would be around 7 EUR or 8.50 USD at the moment) It' s just the fact, that they charge the money. Why do you have to pay to be able to worship? that was only my answer to WHEN did it start. Sure, we all know that copies are available for free these dasy I guess I don't bother giving you an answer on this one. I love my Savior and he knows how I feel. john, I feel sad when I read your post and get the impression that all you wanted to do is tell me how stupid my comments were. The question to the thread was how we feel about books being sold by church leaders, artists or whoever else using our faith as a way to earn money. I just wrote how I felt. Is there really a need to get personal or sarcastic between the lines? I don't think so.

no, I have been wondering about this as wellBut I am glad that there is material available somewhere. There are a lot of good books, that help to increase my undestanding or which are just a lot "easier" to read than the scriptures because they digest a gospel topic and you don't have to dig it up all for yourself. I enjoyed Pres.Hinckleys "stand a little taller" as a nice little book to lift you up every once in a while. What I don't like are the items you have to buy. I remember preparing for my mission.There were plenty of things I needed. A new set of scriptures in my mission language - 50USD. A scripture tote to carry it - anywhere between 10 and 50 USD. Every missionary buys this set of "approved" books called missionary library for at least 15 USD. in the cheapest edition. There were approx. 50,000 missionaries in the field as of Dec. 2009. That equals up to 750,000 USD for the standard missionary library alone... When "Preach my Gospel" hit the market, every member (at least every family) was asked to buy a copy at the price of 9 USD. Imagine if only half of the membership followed the church leaders counsel, that would be worth around 7.000.000 USD I remember a new Hymn book that was introduced as the standard . Or a new translation of the Book of Morman and D&C. (I guess that applies mainly for non-english-speaking countries.) We had to buy new editions - no way around it. Why do I have to pay for the clothing when I go to the temple and don't bring my own stuff? And if I do, why are there different price ranges in pants, jackets, etc when the white clothing is supposed to symbolize that we are all equal? Just a thought that crossed my mind. I'm sorry to say, but the first copies of the Book of Mormon were not handed out for free, but sold to the people. So it would have started right at the beginning of the restoration, I'd say.

well, guess you're right... there are always some experts who know better, but I've never seen anyone lift their hand after the "anybody opposed" question. Just like mormonmusic said: we swallow the whole package because we believe its all true. Back in seminary (looong time ago :)) I was taught to not watch movies that had bad parts in it, even if there was just one single issue and the rest of the entire movie would be brilliant. It's great - except for the bad part

mormonmusic, thanks for your opinion! You made some interesting statements and I read your post a few times - I agree. But then it should be no problem/harm/embarassment to let us know about it - But why? It's only fair to know what my (and your) money is used for. I don't think it's because of a lack of faith that people ask this question. Thats what I observe as well. But I find it sad that so many people don't care This implies that the church is spending our money in a "wrong" way. If the church does what it says - spending the funds agreeable to the Lords will - there should be no reason to make judgements. In fact, quite the opposite. People could see how much good the church does. Thats your most interesting statement... How could they possibly do it, if every penny is accounted for and for the world to see that it is spent wisely? They could only use the report if it reveals that it isn't. thats at least 2 members then :) If it is the law, why doesn't the church make it public? Our articles of faith state that we believe in living according to the law of the land. (Or is it only Canadian law and not U.S.?) looking forward to read your answers, ehkape

If they had a full understanding, why did the serpent have to beguile Eve? Why did she ask "is there no other way?" if she knew it before? Why was Adam shocked, when he found out what Eve had done? Why did God put a curse on Lucifer, if he only did, what he was supposed to do? Why did Adam answer the angel that he didn't know why he offered sacrifice on the altar?

Are they outside auditors? Do you know who does the auditing? I remember my dad doining the auditing in our stake when I was a boy... That was one of his callings, not his profession. Is that common practise elsewhere? And whats wrong with opening the books? I'd like to know what the money is spent for. I don'T think people would become expert on how the church should spend the donations. Nobody becomes expert on who is the next bishop or RSpresident either. It would just be good to know.

Or wonder why there is no money available to put the prophets advice into action... Just a simple example from our ward: a few years ago the 1st pres. sent a letter asking to replace doors that have no window and install doors that have a window to avoid situations where men/women/kids are alone in the same room. Apparently there have been (false?) accusations against priesthood holders in the past. Nothing happend the last 2 years. I asked my bishop recently, why. Simple answer: our ward doesn't have the funds...

Well, if they are all well, there is nothing wrong with it. I was pointing at the scripture in 2 Nephi 28:21 A report that says nothing at all sounds a bit fishy to me I like your point about increasing ones talents. Why not share with the general membership what kind of talents were increased and how the church has been a good steward. That doesn't have to be in general conference, but why not somewhere in the ensign, church news or lds.org?

whenever I hear about church businesses, money investmenst and especially the annual report given at gen.conf. by the auditing department a scripture from 2. nephi 28 comes to mind: "all is well in Zion, yeah, Zion prospereth, all is well..." Anybody else who had this thought as well? Come on, thats not an auditing report given to us, thats just nothing at all.

Why is it, that every time someone has a testimony-concern somone else comes up with "uhhh, maybe you have unnoticed past transgressions or you live in sin"? Sorry WindRiver, but I can't hear it anymore. People question their beliefs even though they might not have sinned and live a good (christian) life! daenvgiell, I hope you will find a way to regain your faith. I try to focus on the small and simple things in life that I am thankful for. Maybe a prayer that includes only "thank you" parts and no requests might be a sweet experience. I enjoy thanking my Heavenly Father for the many blessings in my life (also the small and tiny ones). It helps me to focus on God when I am too carried away with my own concerns about my faith in the church. ehkape

thanks, that was new to me what about blessing a baby/giving a name? Can that be done the same way?