jeff_hawkins

Yes, like seeing angels or "saints" in the rust on a water tower, or in the pattern of drainage on the concrete walls under a bridge in the L.A. river...what do those appearing prove anyways?

Except God HIMself. That will happen one day, and then we'll see who is right, like what was portrayed on Southpark once, where all the denominations of religion were asking God which church was right, and HE said, "uh, the Mormons, they were right." And everyone groaned.

As previously mentioned, "Is there not wisdom in His giving us trials that we might rise above them, responsibilities that we might achieve, work to harden our muscles, sorrows to try our souls? Are we not permitted temptations to test our strength, sickness that we might learn patience, death that me might be immortal and glorified’?" I don't agree that raping and murdering children, feeding people on the flesh of those that were ravaged is wisdom for the benefit of experience. A family being beat every night, the children molested, that's not stuff that happens just for wisdom and experience, to give the family patience. Try telling that to the mom and her kids.

That's a good question. With Alma, it was his father. There were others, when their families were being ravaged by the Lamanites, the Lord intervened because of the pleading and prayers in their behalf. I even think the Israelites were freed from the Egyptians because of their pleadings and prayers. So maybe that is the key, that there needs to be a certain amount of sincere pleading and prayer. The Lord will intervene on our behalf when we show that we care enough to turn to HIM for help, and put our trust in HIM. This kind of works with a condition. The scripture that says something like "if you heed not my commandments, you have no promise." Although, like was previously mentioned in this thread, only the Lord truly knows the heart and mind of a person, and thus a wicked person's prayer may still be answered, with a change of heart, and sincere, honest pleading. So how much pleading and prayer is required for the Lord or an angel to intervene? Is it specific to the situation, the individual, or something else?

From my understanding, agency, free agency, and choice are all and one the same.

What about Alma the Younger, the Lord intervened when he was causing trouble and being wicked. It seems that the occasions in which there is celestial intervention is picked and chosen, is not common, but it does occur, and it confuses me how that all fits into the free agency definition, when there have been instances of intervention. Another one is when Laman and Lemuel were beating Nephi with a rod. They might have beaten him to death, who's to say, but there was an intervention. Yes, the intervention was for a noble cause, but then is it sound to say that the course of a person's free agency can be altered anytime it is a noble cause? This does not seem to be consistent and balanced. There have been instances where God or an angel have intervened when wickedness was being committed, and free agency being practiced, and there is prophecy that a similar intervention will occur in the future, when the Mt. Olives will be split, and those pursuing the Jews will be smitten. So how is agency really free, but molded and controlled when necessary, without any say or decision by the owner of that agency? (I am not condoning sin in the least, or saying that God is not just, but am trying to better understand what is going on)

In 2008, around 1374 violent crimes were committed in Salt Lake City, ranging from minor sexual assaults to murder. Crime Stats - Salt Lake City Police Department - stats are the combined stats of the 7 districts. This is enough to be a problem. I think that more attention and focus should be placed on taking care of home, instead of so much taking care of the rest of the world. The stakes and wards in Salt Lake need to clean up the place considered the head-quarters of the restored church, because it's a filthy crime-riidden city.

But where those prophets and apostles live, are some of the worst areas of crime in this world.

Which makes me feel very alone, and like a platoon of soldiers surrounded by the enemy, there is little hope of finding a "good" place in which a man can raise his family in this world, and hope that the family can avoid becoming victims of horrors and crime. Salt Lake City is definitely one place I would never consider. I do agree with your reply about Adam, and the cursed state of the earth until Christ comes again.

If HE is in so much control, then that really means that he is controlling the horror that exists in the world. I don't buy that HE is in control of a father who molests and beats his children. I see that more of the father being controlled by Satan than by the Lord. I understand that the Lord is in control of the Eternal Plan, but as far as us existing in this world, at this time, I see the majority of the time, there is no celestial intervention or involvement when bad things are happening to good people.

I am LDS, and I have served an LDS mission. I am active, and have served in many callings. I currently hold an active temple recommend, and am worthy to have it. However, I do not understand everything, especially how detached the Lord seems to be from the lives of the majority of the world. Statistically and historically, the Lord is very unlikely to intervene and save someone, righteous or wicked, from harm, treachery, horror, torture, abuse, rape, murder, etc. How many people living in the world today dread their fathers coming home, knowing they will be beaten, molested, abused, maybe even killed. And they pray and pray, and yet still the fists land just as hard. Where is the intervention of God in this? I met a lady on my mission who had grown up in El Salvador during some rough times in the 70's and 80's. She was the sole survivor of her village. Guerrilla soldiers invaded her village, raped and tortured the women and children, then lined up everyone from the village on a bridge, tied their hands behind their back, and began to shoot them, one by one. This lady couldn't wait to be shot, and so she jumped from the bridge. She experienced what she called a miracle then, the soldiers shot at her, and the bullets cut through the rope around her wrists, and she was able to escape. She hid in the jungle for around a week, and was able to eventually escape to America. However, she lives with the horror of what happened, and the nightmares of what happened to her personally. She can't afford more than living in a run-down apartment, because she has to pay for so much mental therapy. She said that she can't go to church, she can't forgive God for not intervening when little children were raped and tortured in the mud and dirt of her village. You don't have to look far to see the crime that goes on each day. In Salt Lake City, where the prophets and apostles live, there are numerous horrible crimes, gang problems, rape, murder, child/spouse abuse, drugs, theft, adultery, embezzlement, etc. If where the prophets and apostles live is such a mess, how can there be any hope for the rest of the world?!! What kind of message is that sending to the rest of world. Where is the beacon of hope, the sanctuary from filth? It is not found in this world, there is minimal celestial intervention.