Tyler90AZ
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Posts posted by Tyler90AZ
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How do I endure corrections from other people well? I tend to struggle with corrections, even when they are done to help me.
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I just find it ironic how when it looked like he would get off that people were saying let the system sort itself out. Then when he got arrested they started saying the system is flawed.
Not talking about your post Sicily, but many other posters on here.
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Everything else= What Joseph Smith Jr revealed
I am not arguing that everything after Joseph Smith Jr. must also be true. Despite the fact that many quotes by Joseph Smith Jr. indicate that this is the correct church. If I find those I will post them in this thread.
If you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.
Joseph Smith, Jr.
If The Book of Mormon is true then Joseph Smith Jr. is a Prophet of God.
The Book of Mormon was not found by a random guy. That is the only argument that could really hold any weight. Although it is easily refuted by the fact that The Book of Mormon claims great authority. The God that is depicted in The Book of Mormon would not let a random guy discover The Book of Mormon and start a religion.
That then establishes the fact that God(representatives included) must have revealed The Book of Mormon unto who he chose. We can easily figure, undeniably, who he revealed it too. The way we figure it out is who revealed The Book of Mormon to the world. That would be JS. The below scripture indicates Joseph Smith Jr. revealed The Book of Mormon to the world and it is a historical fact.
34 He said there was a abook deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
JS History 1
Now that we have established that The Book of Mormon was revealed to JS by God, lets prove he is a Prophet of God. We can do this by knowing that the God depicted in The Book of Mormon is righteous Which would then mean, he would not reveal it to somebody who would lie. If he would not reveal it to somebody who would lie then JS can be counted as credible. That would then make his declarations that he is a Prophet credible.
Another way we can establish that JS is a Prophet of God is by The Book of Mormon. In The Book of Mormon it repeatedly talks about how prophets led the people of God. If that is the case it follows that God would always have prophets lead. Having a quorum of the twelve is in both the Bible and Book of Mormon. That wold mean God has always wanted prophets to lead. That proves that God would only call a Prophet to lead his people.
If he is a Prophet of God that would also mean his revelations are true. Part of a Prophets duty is receiving revelations for the people of God. That would mean the revelations came from God. Which means the revelations JS brought forth are true. Notice I did not say his individual actions, but the revelations he brought forth.
Now you may say, "well only some of his revelations are true or none, yet he is still a prophet." All we have to do is work backwards to see that it is all true or none of it is true. If the revelations are not true that would mean he is not a Prophet of God. The moment he starts giving false revelations he is not a prophet. If he is not a Prophet then the claim by The Book of Mormon and him, that a Prophet should receive the book is false. That would then mean The Book of Mormon is not true. In addition, if he came out with false revelations then he lies which means the whole claim that The Book of Mormon is true falls apart.
I don't think the missionaries were told to stop teaching "it logically follows" because it is not true. Rather, because, many people like to cherry pick the gospel. Teaching "logically follows," would then isolate many people who would join the church.
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My own thought is that truth is truth, and I must face the spiritual crisis. If, for example, my Bible teaches what I do not like, and I am convinced that my Bible does indeed teach it, I must either tackle the unsavory doctrine or I must reexamine my faith in the Bible as truth source.
I agree with that, I did not just choose this church because I like everything about it. Some of the stuff is not favorable to me: how the old testament God appears to act, priesthood denied to blacks and a mall being built to name a few.
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So what do you do with that? The LDS doctrine of "outer darkness" is smaller than that which most traditional Christians understand, but it's still there and it's still eternal. So, how do you reconcile this?
The outer darkness only consists of apostates who know undeniably the truth of the gospel. Which would mean only those who have seen God or Jesus Christ in person. Not talking about those who have seen them spiritually. Which means that it would, essentially, be followers of the devil. Even people like Oliver Cowdrey or other Saints who fell out did not have a perfect light. They did not get the doctrines Joseph Smith Jr. came out with "verified" by Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ. The majority of spirits in outer darkness would be the 1/3rd that chose to follow the Devil instead of enter mortality. In that case, I have no sympathy, they are followers of the Devil who had a perfect light.
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I guess I never did address your opening post. Here's my take:
Its true that we don't hear much about plural wives in the old testament but nothing changed. According to Israelite law plural marriage is acceptable and in certain cases required. When a man dies without any children his brother must marry his wive. This is called Levirate marriage.
From before Abraham until Adam there is no condemnation or requirement of Plural marriage so we just don't know. Some have speculated that since Adam had only one wife them monogamy must be God's approved form of marriage. However it seems more that Humanity was started with the minimum number possible. Alternatively if Adam and Eve are symbolic then ever represents all women then we still have not requirement of monogamy for this time period.
We know that Abraham and his descendants were never condemned for Plural Marriage. So from Abraham until before Moses there was not condemnation of Plural Marriage.
I already discusses the Mosaic law. So again we see no condemnation of Plural Marriage from Moses until before Christ.
Plural Marriage was never condemned until during the great apostasy about 600AD. And it wasn't condemned in Jewish law until about 1000AD. So you have to ask yourself, did God approve that actions of an apostate church when it condemned polygamy? I don't believes so. Therefor I believe that from the time of Christ until Joseph Smith, God still approved plural marriage.
So from the time of Adam until Joseph Smith the only clear condemnation of Plural Marriage was given specifically to the Nephites during that limited period of time. But even then we find no evidence of God commanding Alma(who had many wives and concubines) to divorce any of his wives of concubines after he converted to the gospel. Some have also suggested that the ban on plural marriage was lifted when Christ came to the Americas.
So then we come to Joseph Smith. Josephs public statements condemned polygamy While many look to statements of witnesses as evidence that Joseph practiced polygamy. If we accept Joseph as having practiced polygamy then we can see his polygamy was truly polygamy rather than Brigham's polygyny only. Meaning that Joseph allowed women to have multiple husbands in addition to men having multiple wives.
If we look from Joseph to today the history becomes a bit more complicated. The statements I am about to make are purely historical and are not meant to speak against the Church, its practices, or leaders. I am not making them to oppose the Church, I am simply discussing history.
From Brigham(1845) until Wilford Woodruff(1890) we find repeated declarations that the Church would go into apostasy, or would loose priesthood keys, if they ever gave up plural marriage. We find revelations from John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff repeatedly approving of plural marriage. John Taylor ordained a group of people to continue practicing plural marriage no matter what the Church would do. This was his idea of a safety net against the lost of priesthood that he believed would come upon the Church if they gave up polygamy. This group later became the beginnings of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints , and the Apostolic United Brethren.
In 1890 we find Wilford Woodruff declaring that the Church was to give up Plural Marriage. This statement contradicted a revelation he had received just one year prior. It should be noted that there is no available text to the 1890 revelation Wilford Woodruff claimed to have received(I say "claimed" because there is no written text to verify there was indeed a revelation). It should also be noted that vote to accept the change in policy was not unanimous. There was at least one person who voted "no."
All this action, in 1890, did was publicly reject plural marriage. Plural marriage continued, authorized by the first presidency, until Heber J. Grant. But even though it was approved it was always publicly denied.
I have to politely disagree with this. There are, in fact, many ways that everything else can be false even if the Book of Mormon is true. The truthfulness of each principle must stand independent and also must be determined independently. Discussion of this topic could be continued further but it would probably be best done in a separate thread.
Start the thread...
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I have not started keeping a journal and regret it everyday. My Sunday School teacher told me something that hit me once, "a spiritual experience recorded is like living it over and over." That is why I should be recording all my spiritual experiences. In addition, I wish I would have wrote a journal about my conversion step by step. How neat would that have been for my children? It would have been really neat and yet I still don't write one. I feel pretty ashamed sharing this...
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"In the revelations the doctrines of the gospel are set forth with explanations about such fundamental matters as the nature of the Godhead, the origin of man, the reality of Satan, the purpose of mortality, the necessity for obedience, the need for repentance, the workings of the Holy Spirit, the ordinances and performances that pertain to salvation, the destiny of the earth, the future conditions of man after the resurrection and the judgment, the eternity of the marriage relationship, and the eternal nature of the family. Likewise the gradual unfolding of the administrative structure of the Church is shown with the calling of bishops, the First Presidency, the Council of the Twelve, and the Seventy, and the establishment of other presiding offices and quorums. Finally, the testimony that is given of Jesus Christ—his divinity, his majesty, his perfection, his love, and his redeeming power—makes this book of great value to the human family and of more worth than the riches of the whole earth."
Thus we see how carefully the Lord is preparing every detail to carry out the full plan He has designed for the guidance of His children on their journey through mortality. The population growth indicates He is sending many more of His spirit children to earth to have a mortal experience. Technology makes travel and communication accessible to all corners of the earth, and, most important, He is protecting and preserving His holy scriptures for our guidance.
My encouragement to you tonight is to study the doctrines of the Lord's Church. With all the mountains of information being fed to the world today, how comforting it is to know that the Lord has preserved His dealings with His children as contained in His holy scriptures. Here is our foundation of truth. It will stand the test of time. It is the doctrine and His revealed covenants we must take upon ourselves that will lead us back to His presence. It is the only course that will lead to life eternal, which is surely the objective of each of us. This is my witness to you in the name of our Lord and Savior, even Jesus Christ, amen.
Apostle of Jesus Christ L. Tom Perry
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I don't see anyway around it, if The Book of Mormon is true then everything else is also true. No doubt, you have probably heard that already. Nonetheless, think it out and try to come up with a way it would not be true if The Book of Mormon is true. Everything Joseph Smith Jr. brought forth must be true, which is the majority of the D&C.
Don't mistake me as telling you not to question. Joseph Smith Jr. would never tell Saints not to question or gain knowledge nor would I.
“A man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge”
― Joseph Smith Jr.
“By proving contraries, truth is made manifest.”
― Joseph Smith Jr.
I would also recommend reading D&C 88 one of the best chapters. If you read through our whole cannon and compare they are interwoven.
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As minds become free, they will act free.
I guess I am a prime example... The first one is exactly what I say. If God is love he would not torture people in hell for all eternity. No offence...
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I agree with you, PC. It all still rides on the prosecution's overall case; but one of their major weaknesses was that the only surviving firsthand witness was likely to get up on the witness stand and tell a different story than the one they want us to believe. Zimmerman's version of being attacked by Martin was, IMHO, pretty darned compelling; especially in light of the physical evidence.
At this point, as a defense attorney, I'd be worried about Zimmerman's testifying at all. If he gets up on the stand, the state is within their right to attack his credibility by citing his false testimony offered to date.
The guy appeared to falsely testify like three different times during his bail. They better keep him far from the stand.
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Welcome
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Mortality is with a certain purpose in mind, to qualify for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom and Eternal Life. I think a spirit who died before the age of accountability's entrance into the Celestial Kingdom preempts any self-pity one might feel for not having certain experiences in this fallen state. I think the eternal treasures far outweigh any missed earthly treasures and they will see it as far beneath them to feel any suffering for missing time in mortality.
If I had to choose between a real castle and a sand castle I am not going to suffer one bit in giving up the sand castle for the real one.
Don't you think that is the case for everyone who reaches the Celestial Kingdom? We will all look back at our experiences on earth and laugh. That does not negate the fact that we or those who only live an hour still suffer. Once we reach the Celestial Kingdom everything is beneath everybody. Although at that moment the child dies, before he enters the Celestial Kingdom his spirit must feel sorrow. After all, babies are closer to the veil.
The child after all did sacrifice an experience God created for us. God being omnipotent could have just skipped the earth life and sent us straight to the Celestial Kingdom. That is what leads me to believe there must be great benefits to mortality. Namely, get a body and gain experience.
I really believe suffering and sacrifice help us reach our full potential. That is why we are given so many trials to strengthen us. Without the trials we would not be refined enough to be exalted. I really like the saying, "what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." If God really wanted to he could make everyone of our trials go away. That is not what God wants, he wants us to become like him.
That is why a child dying early, either didn't need mortality or the suffering is so great from not gaining experience.
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So, what suffering does the child go through who lives only one hour or the child born without a brain, such as with anencephaly? Usually, the word "all" implies something that becomes a necessary step for anyone and everyone. I think that is too strong. Yes, for all of us that are left to make choices between good and evil that would apply as we sin then we have to suffer with repentance.
Suffering is not exclusive to sinning and repenting. Although everyone sins and has to repent. I have heard many talks about the Lord giving us trials for our growth. Those trials would count as suffering to us.
But, for the child who dies before the age of accountability, specifically, what cross is carried? (I'm talking from the child's perspective, not the suffering from the parents who lost the child)
We are told in the scriptures that everybody who comes to earth wanted to be here. That even includes those who were only here for a short time, a child who dies. With that in mind, never being allowed the blessing of mortality, seems like more suffering then anything else.
I also believe that we are appointed to our time of death. That means God knows when we will die and has it planned. For the child who only lives an hour I believe he is a greater spirit then me. That the child did not need to go through mortality.
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Well I was able to get employment...Thanks for all the advice!
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Desertknight – thank you for your thought. I believe if we only talk to individuals that we agree with – we will not learn. However there are two very important points that I think you have not considered in you view – or point of view.
Point 1: Prodigal does not mean sinful or rebellious even though such understanding is often attached to the term prodigal, most likely because of this parable and the evolution of traditional religious thinking. The term prodigal means wasteful, lavish and extravagant. We may define that as sinful because of the relationship we all think that prodigal has to pride but as much as we would press the issue it is in the full extension of meaning, border line sinful at best. In essence to exist in a mortal state makes us prodigal and unprofitable before G-d – Regardless of how pure or repentant we may attempt to live. Thus it could also be understood that G-d himself is prodigal and wasteful in the very redemption of man from his fallen state – because G-d will never nor can G-d ever be repaid and receive a “return” or profit from the investment made for mankind.
Point 2: I believe that you are attaching too much of the meaning that we should have to sacrifice to your meaning of suffering. It is very possible that suffering can have no point what-so-ever. Suffering has absolutely nothing to do with spiritual growth without sacrifice. Thus the point is not in suffering but in sacrifice. The net very point about sacrifice is that sacrifice itself is indirect and an outgrowth of something of greater essence – and that is discipline. Without discipline sacrifice cannot exist. It is interesting to me that Jesus called his followers that believe on him disciples – which has the same core concept as discipline.
You indicate that you believe the parable of the Prodigal Son is more about the Father than the son – and thus I think you miss the focus that Jesus gave to the parable. The concept is that the younger son became disciplined – even more so than the older brother and if we are not careful we will lose this focus that Jesus intended. The older brother lost nothing but the reason the father rejoiced in the younger over the older is because the younger achieved a greater discipline.
The Traveler
It seems to me that desertknight is correct in his view about suffering. Without suffering you can not grow to your full potential. Suffering does not have to be associated with a prodigal. As you know, all members of the church even active, suffer greatly. We all endure trials. That is the meaning of bearing our cross and the nails.
As far as sacrifice, that is also a type of suffering. Maybe we are all meaning the same thing just using different words. Sacrifice just seems to be a Latter-day Saint word for suffering. To me if I lost a child the better word would be suffering and not sacrificing. Saying it is sacrifice is also a better way to look at it then suffering.
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Casey,
Since you're only dating this woman, you need to put that into perspective.
Matthew 10:34-39
I don't think it's possible (right now) to have both in your life. Perhaps over time?
Luke 16:13
Here's another perspective: You are changing yourself, therefore changing the nature of your relationship with this woman. In a way, it really isn't fair to her because she was expecting a certain type of man in her life. Now you're "changing the playing field" on her.
Unless she joins you on this path, your breakup may be inevitable.
At least you're not married at this point. If so, the advice you receive would be different.
Well, I agree with what you are saying if she does not want to join the church.
However, it looks like God is paving the road with gold for Casey. His girl has recently started losing faith and he found the true church of Jesus Christ. It is looking like a divine hand is at play here to save two choice souls of God.
Casey, really all you have to do is tell her, eye to eye contact from your heart, what you feel. If you do that I believe she will read The Book of Mormon. And you already know from experience, what God does to those who read The Book of Mormon. You andI are good examples that the holy ghost testifies the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon.
Then if she doesn't read or respect you may want to find another girl.
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Hello All,
I've been reading the Book of Mormon, as well as other documents published by the Church, and I've been praying about it. I feel inspired, more than I have about any religion.
In my past, I have been a atheist leaning agnostic, extremely cynical about religion in all aspects. I've viewed it as a crutch for the weak, and a way for those in power to control those weaker than themselves. I find it pretty hilarious that out of all the religions around, Mormonism is the one I'm identifying with now, haha.
I've been dating a beautiful girl named Melissa for the past three and a half years, and I couldn't be happier. When we first started dating, she was faithful to her Christian religion (not Mormonism), and was worried about me. Now, she's just as confused as I was about religion. Whenever I bring up Mormonism (usually in a joking way), she's extremely against it... and I can't blame her, I've been projecting these same feelings for our entire relationship.
I suppose my question is: how do I join this religion I'm so drawn to, without disappointing the woman I love so dearly.
Thanks for the advice,
-Casey, 21 y/o
Glad to see you are drawing closer and closer to truth!
It seems like we were similar in how we felt about religion. Before I joined the church I thought the exact same things about religion. It also seems funny to me that I would become a Mormon. Never thought in a million years I would join any religion, let alone this one.
As far as getting your girl to join this religion or accept it. If I was in your shoes I would try to get her to do the same things you have done. Namely, read The Book of Mormon and dive into this religion. Tell her not to take your words for what you are feeling and take it to God. I would also be willing to bet she was praying for you to join her religion. Mention that her prayers have been answered and you have found the true church of Jesus Christ.
As far as The Book of Mormon you should check a talk out, Safety for the Soul. This is the talk that really started growing my faith. Then after it grew just a little bit of faith I received miracles. Just like it tells you in The Book of Mormon. Here is the link: Safety for the Soul - general-conference click watch on the right side and sit back in feel the spirit work strongly in you.
Also here is my mormon.org page, since we have a lot of similarities you might want to check it out. Hi I'm Tyler | Mormon | 2FN1
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Oh, that's good! Yes.
Oh, I just realized you were Catholic. Nonetheless, our churches have more in common then different.
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Oh, I don't think the prodigal will simply get "a portion". I think the father was pointing out the ingratitude of the dutiful son by saying to him, "all that I have has always been yours.", in essence. i.e., don't be ungrateful but understand that there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" (Lk. 15:7).
Agree Desertknight
The laborers in the vineyard illustrate that anybody who returns to Christ will get all that is his. I don't think anybody will get just a portion and that was illustrated this past conference by Jeffrey R. Holland. The Laborers in the Vineyard - general-conference
"It is with that reading of the story that I feel the grumbling of the first laborers must be seen. As the householder in the parable tells them (and I paraphrase only slightly): “My friends, I am not being unfair to you. You agreed on the wage for the day, a good wage. You were very happy to get the work, and I am very happy with the way you served. You are paid in full. Take your pay and enjoy the blessing. As for the others, surely I am free to do what I like with my own money.” Then this piercing question to anyone then or now who needs to hear it: “Why should you be jealous because I choose to be kind?”"
Truly the person who has remained in the church his whole life has been blessed more abundantly. Which is a great thing and due to his own actions. The person who has not been in the church his whole life has paid a seen and unseen price. Regardless if they deserved to pay that price it matters not. Our Lord is merciful beyond belief and we should rejoice in his mercy.
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Do you think he just changed his mind regarding polygamy? Just curious as to what you believe.
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our army environment is different to the US one.
You should elaborate on that if you have time
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The part in Jacob 2 regarding polygamy not being authorized has always been a faith builder for me. It has been a faith builder regarding the fact that God can allow and not allow polygamy during different times. It also has been a faith builder that Joseph Smith Jr. instituted polygamy via revelation. If you think about it, if Joseph Smith Jr. authored The Book of Mormon why would that be in the book? It would have been more convenient to not be in The Book of Mormon; if he had any thought of having a polygamous religion later. Try selling polygamy to people when it is not allowed in the book you brought forth. Yea, doesn't seem like a very smart idea.
Also God only reveals polygamy to strengthen his church. In the early days of the church it would have been of the utmost importance to grow in numbers. That is exactly what polygamy did, grow the church in numbers. God does not just do it so the men can be happy having more sex, polygamy is done in a righteous manner.
There has also been interesting scientific studies done lately. The studies have concluded that we were not created or evolved to be in a monogamous relationship.
You seem like a sincere seeker of truth Wayne, watch this video regarding The Book of Mormon
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My sister served.
I really like how Israel has mandatory military service. Excellent Israel excellent.
Limiting God
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted · Edited by Tyler90AZ