Ammonite

Perhaps watching the SuperBowl is not evil, but are there better ways to keep the Sabbath day holy? That is really the question. I am an expert on choosing better ways. Now that my ward is on the early block, I sleep for more hours than I worship--but I do try to wait until after the meetings rather than snoring through Sacrament.

I've been thinking about this topic a lot today after tragedy hit one of our neighbors. When at least half the town was watching the SuperBowl, our neighbor's house burned down. I felt terrible because I might have been able to call 911 sooner but thought that the strange popping sounds I heard were coming from the pork ribs I had in the oven. It wasn't until my daughter saw smoke 5 minutes later that the fire department was called. Even though the station is literally 1 mile down the street, it took 30minutes for them to round up firemen and get the trucks in front of the house. By that time, the fire had engulfed the roof. In less than an hour, they lost everything and our next-door neighbor's home was slightly damaged. I was thinking about this topic because I don't really like these neighbors. The parents don't take care of their 3 sons. Their younger boys are regularly banned from riding the school bus for hitting and are often left alone in the care of the 12 year old while the parents are out doing who knows what. After school, their 6 year old son is always looking for some place to play. Some of my neighbors don't let him in anymore because of very bad behavior (hitting the kids, swearing and yelling at the adults) so he's been in our home nearly every weekday for the past month. So far he has been perfectly behaved, probably because my house is the only place he can go for real meals (the 12 yr old does all the cooking) and be safe from his older brothers. My husband has had to break up fights between them before. I feel guilty for not feeling too sad that they won't be living near us for a while because my son and their youngest were becoming closer friends. Although J***** was behaving for me, I doubted it would last without supportive teachings in his own home. My two brothers got into lots of trouble (theft, drugs, prison) partly because they chose poor friends and so I might be a little bit paranoid when it comes to my son. At the same time I am eager to be part of the ward and neighborhood effort to help them. I have no doubt that my role is to serve them regardless of my feelings about the parents and concerns about the boys. I am sorrowful for their loss but I would also be relieved if they decide not to return. Obviously my charity is lacking.

Parents looking for that perfect baby name.

I have known too many people who are skilled with using spiritual experiences to manipulate others, even in seemingly innocent ways--so I am often the skeptic. Sometimes however, I wish I weren't. I think it would be nice to live in a time like the early days of the Church when angels ministered to the Saints on a regular basis, when people spoke in tongues and manifested other spiritual gifts, when miracles were more visible and grand, and Church members were less inclined to explain them away.

It sounds like you are already frazzled and now have to deal with this. Your ward sounds exactly like our previous one except you'll have to knock down the number who showed up to approx. 75. Some of those would leave after Sacrament, leaving behind their children to be picked up at the end of Primary. I can sympethize with your wife's waning desire to attend. I felt our family was picked on a bit because we never said "no" and I rejoiced when we eventually moved. At the same time, I felt guilty to leave the ward even shorter of man-power. My Bishop had to deal with a lot too, but it would'nt stop me from going to him if it was important. Yours may know the family better and know how to approach them without causing hurt feelings.

This is why I disagree: “All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not” ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 181). Speaking about Cain “this first murderer of all murderers is himself Perdition—he was so designated in preexistence—and he will rule over Satan himself when the devil and his angels are cast out everlastingly” (Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness For the Articles of Faith, 658). Joseph Smith's quote explains why Cain will rule over Satan. He will have more power because he received a mortal body. Infants and children who die, those who go through life with severe mental handicaps, also give support to my understanding that receiving bodies, in whatever form or size, is more essential than life trials. Every spirit needs the opportunity to be born, but not all need to get a mortal education. I think we have different definitions of the natural man. I believe the scriptures are talking about free will not specifically the mortal body. I don't think the quotes from Alma or Benson make my definition less plausible. The body doesn't usually commit a sinful act apart from the intelligence that is controlling it. Mental illness is the only exception I can think of (but then the act is not committed by free will) and hormones can make things harder so I understand how you come to your definition. I agree and I think it is more likely that they won't have the ability, not that they will be constrained by some law. But like you, I am only speculating. I agree with this too, but for those who don't need the refiner's fire, why do they come to Earth even for a brief moment in order to obtain a body? According to Jospeh Smith, in order to recieve powers and abilities that you can't have without one. Yes, sex isn't the most important aspect but still a scientifically essential one. I think mortal sex has little to do with the way Gods procreate but that even the Gods must follow certain laws to produce children. We know that HF lives by the law of justice, otherwise we wouldn't need a Savior. It is plausible that there are other laws that must be followed, even if they aren't the most important aspect. To answer the original question: Adam and Eve had belly buttons only if the definition of "First" man and woman is not literal. If it is and they had a Heavenly Mother, then they probably didn't have belly buttons. As a resurrected being why would she need an umbilical cord to sustain them? I'm just speculating that she wouldn't because I think they were immortal children before the Fall. However, because HF and HM had perfected bodies they could create bodies for them with the ability to become mortal. Like Vort, I don't want to dwell on the way they were created. I'm afraid I've bordered irreverance already, so I'll just have to agree to disagree with Seminarysnoozer on some things.

That's my mother's favorite. I don't know why or when it started, but I catch myself saying "Holy Hannah Montana!" all the time now. I better stop before someone outside my immediate family catches me.

First of all, I would be humiliated by the question, figuring that if He asked--I wasn't worthy. I understand and agree with all the responses citing Christ and the power of the atonement--but in LDS doctrine, the atonement does not guarantee Celestial glory. Am I wrong?

You hit this spot on! I could agree with Snow's listed definitions if there were no eternal plan, no great purpose for life, and no reason for suffering--which I believe is largely needed to teach us about ourselves not to show God what we can do. If God simply created human life for entertainment value and to be worshiped for self-satisfying reasons, then what he allows is evil and he is evil. I am not interested in believing that such a god exists. If he does, I vote we all to rebel against him. I believe his name is Zeus.

Perhaps some of my reasons for disagreeing with you is because we may be misunderstanding each other on the issues you bring up here. Maybe we have different ideas of what an exalted body is? I don't think it is going to be identical to what we have now. I think we are going to get new bodies--otherwise anyone who has completely decomposed, been digested or burned to the micro-level might be in trouble. Not that anything is too hard for God but once bodies fully decompose, they become part of the earth and can be ingested or absorbed by other forms of life, effectively becoming part of another living thing. On this we appear to agree, but please correct me if needed. The fact that Christ's disciples on the road to Emmaus didn't recognize him may be evidence of the new bodies hypothesis. Nevertheless, I think our exalted bodies will be patterned after the mortal type. Where I see that we may diverge in our thoughts is on our ideas of what powers exalted bodies have, why we wanted them, and how (highest kingdom) celestial beings are going to use them. I agree that childbirth would not be the same as for mortal women, because exalted bodies feel no pain, do not bleed, etc. However, complex forms of life always need something from two genders to get started. I can't quite understand how you reconcile your ideas on the Creation of Adam and Eve (God molding bodies out of mortal matter) with this fact. Do you believe that none of the laws of creation that apply on this world apply to Gods and Goddesses? If so, maybe you are correct. As for me, I think that even the mortal human body is too complex for God to create without a more intricate process than the scriptures describe. I believe that what makes exalted bodies so powerful and desirable, is that they combine perfectly all the attributes and powers of both the mortal body and the spirit. All the enjoyable emotions, sensations, and pro-creation abilities melded with immortality and perfect intelligence. Of course, I could be completely wrong.

Just to clarify, I don't think that sex is evil and I agree with your entire post. I was trying to suggest in my insufficient way, that whatever God's ways are, they probably aren't identical to our ways. I didn't mean pitiful and lowly as strongly as it was interpreted but more like my 3 year-old's crude crayon drawings compared to a Master's oil paintings. I still beam with love when I look at my son's humble drawings and I imagine our Father does the same when he looks upon our best efforts at building strong, tender, and righteous relationships with our spouses. Nevertheless, the techniques that our Father employs to create art must be inconceivably greater than our own. My hope is to eventually learn how to color inside the lines. Plato does a better job describing the differences in the degrees of light and knowledge in his Allegory of the Cave.

I'm with you! As I understand the doctrine of premortal life, only those who wholeheartedly accepted Christ's plan remained with the 2/3.

This is where I see a flaw in your logic. I am also a woman and if we are needed for one part of the creation status, but not both, why not just leave the females as Spirits? Wouldn't this logic lead to the confirmation that we are the lesser sex, a less important part of the eternal process? Sorry, but I completely rebel at such a thought. I think, but am only guessing, your primary argument against it is because you would then have to imagine that the way we reproduce on this Earth is similar to the way Gods reproduce--and that this is too irreverent to conceive. I am also uncomfortable with that idea. But what if human sexuality is just a pitiful and lower form--yet with some likeness to--the way celestial beings have eternal increase. Perhaps that is why Satan is so eager to twist and turn the creation process into something evil and vile. If we find it reprehensible, except to endure as a way to bring children into our families, then Satan succeeds in prejudicing our minds. Sex becomes something bestial and the flesh is perceived as something weak and unrighteous. In its most common form on this Earth, I would agree. Therefore, I believe there must be something different--but Heavenly Father working in a medical lab--is weak logic if LDS doctrine on the essential role of two genders is to be believed. "All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." (Para. 2, The Family: A Proclamation to the World). I don't know how our Heavenly Father created Adam and Eve, but I cannot imagine that his relationship with his wife is unbalanced and therefore, I think there is more to the creation process than we understand. LDS doctrine teaches that our Heavenly parents have physical bodies, yet you suggest that they no longer use them to create human life. Then what is the reason for them? If not the power of procreation, what power do they give us that Spirits do not already have?

GNC: $20 for a 32oz bottle but I have seen it on Sale for $16. It is a month's supply of Liquid Multi-Colloidal Minerals. I don't recall what I paid at Sam's. I think it was about $17 for the same size bottle. It is a lot cheaper than some internet products, but they claim to be from the purest sources on Earth. I decided that they can't all be right and GNC has a good reputation.

My mother-in-law is a huge fan of Glenn Beck so I DVR'ed a couple episodes, fully expecting to like him because he's Mormon and conservative, only to be shocked. I watched his doomsday-scenario episode and one where he ranted over and over about the Moa role-model reference. I was very disappointed that he appeared to be soliciting the Republican equivalent of Jerry Springer fans. Have Beck's shows always been this extreme? I got the impression from MIL that he was more logical and considerate than O'Reilly.

It nearly as addicting as Diet Pepsi.

As I think you mentioned earlier in the thread, there can be a debate over the definition of evil. Is something evil if it brings people closer to God? An example: Hurricane Katrina. Horrific damage resulted in an unusual outpouring of service and goodwill for all the victims. People realized what was most important. They same happened after 9/11. As for those who died, if they left this life for a place without pain or suffering, how is that evil? How do we know that God does nothing? Perhaps he just doesn't do what we think he should do. As a personal victim of child abuse and sexual abuse--I absolutely refute that He did nothing for me. He did not reach down and swipe the bad people away but he gave me the strength and testimony to survive it. When things were at their worst and I was sobbing my heart out, I literally felt the arms of someone around me. I felt physical warmth. That was something not nothing! Perhaps that is not good enough for some but right now, I have a very happy "middle" to my life and I can attribute all of it to living the principles of his gospel. Things could get hard again anytime, but I have a spiritual support system to deal with it. My faith made me stronger and God turned what could have become hate, depression, and apathy into the precious jewel of empathy. If God is the one who deals out pain and men call it evil--isn't it just a matter of perspective?

It's not in the scriptures, but can be conjectured based on teachings from Latter-day prophets and apostles. Your conclusion that Adam and Eve started out as adults is based only on traditional opinion and interpretation. If you can support that belief with quotes from modern revelation, I would be more inclined to believe it. Yeah, we don't know for sure, but baby Adam and baby Eve creates a stronger case for the necessity of two genders. If women aren't needed in the Creation, why couldn't God find a way to do without them in mortality?

I concur that the Peal of Great Price has more docrinal gems than any other scripture and is appropriately named. I can't say I understood everything in the rest of your reply--I'm still a newborn when it comes to delving into deep doctrine--but I agree with what I did.

I agree if we focus only on the bellybutton rather than using this topic as a stepping point to a discussion about the nature of God.

I have only had a few "true" migraines--enough to feel empathy for chronic sufferers, but I do have daily headaches. I've noticed that mine get worse depending on what I eat. I have a lot of food allergies and suspect that most of my headaches are related to them---I am too much of a wimp to convert to a strictly hypoallergenic diet of plain rice, pears, and unseasoned chicken breast. Corn allergy has been connected to headaches and some sort of corn derivitive is in nearly everything (shampoo, deoderant, medications, every processed food, and as a coating on fruits and veggies). Many people have allergies they are never aware of because they don't sneeze or break out in hives. I recently started drinking collodial minerals and have noticed some improvement. It has Magnesium and 59 other minerals. I found it at GNC and Sam's Club.

What evidence do we have that the creation story, specifically of Adam and Eve and the story of the Fall is literal? Why couldn't it all be a parable meant to teach us something? Eve was formed from Adam's rib--is that literal or is it meant to teach us that man and woman are meant to walk side-by-side. Man is not above woman, nor vise versa. What scripture states that Adam and Eve were never infants? As Latter-day Saints, we believe in a Heavenly Mother. Does anyone believe that she has no part in the Creation? Why would we need a HM if she doesn't do anything? If HF can create without any help, why bother creating two genders? Why promise eternal increase to those who reach the highest degree of celestial glory? Do we assume that this eternal increase refers to creating life the same way my son forms people out of PlayDoh?

We are a cult but are we occult?

Godless, I am confused. Do you suggest that Zebras herd together to save each other? They could care less about preserving their species. A bigger crowd equals a bigger defense so it is still all about self-preservation. The self-awareness that you talk about sounds like supreme selfishness: Doing good things because it makes ME happy. It brings ME fulfilment. Its all about ME. (But your not hurting others so that makes it good??) There is reasonable belief that our species is able to escape mortality because there are witnesses. Prophets and even regular people who have seen and talked with God and have been given knowledge from him of the afterlife. You and many others chose not to believe those witnesses. No one can recieve a witness unless they are honestly willing to open to the possibility that God could exist because humans also have the unique ability to explain away the things we see, hear and feel. As long as we can rationalize, we can create our own "truths" and deny another's.

Any of us who live to an age of accountability have done so for a reason. With God there is no coincidence or happenstance and we need our earth life and specific circumstances of birth, family, religion, etc., to gain specific knowledge and experiences to overcome weaknesses that --as far as I understand prophetic and scriptural teachings-- we have always had. I don't mean to suggest that certain people have always had a weakness for pornography for example, but perhaps some general propensity that leads to a specific worldly sin. In other words, we weren't even perfect before we came to earth but we wanted to be. Therefore, God creates a plan and a way for us to achieve perfection. We come to the earth and through our sins and failings; learn humility and obedience (ideally of course). If we learn the lessons we need the atonement takes over and pays the price of our sins and we gain the highest reward God can give us—eternal life with Him in His presence and the gift of eternal marriage and eternal increase. If we don't, God has a backup plan. This is where I see that the multiple degrees of glory (and the degrees within degrees) are evidence of a wholly compassionate and loving God. Absolutely no one is left without the opportunity for some level of glory, even if they rebel against their Creator and His laws till death.