stormwitch

Maybe you should say "Wisdom of Jesus Sirach"... :-)

heard this joke before.. about missionaries at the times of the pioneers visiting native american country... ;-) And one hint. Much of Isaiah, especially the parts in the Book of Mormon can be understood easier if you read them like poetry. Look for chiasms for example, or try to find passages which are just rephrased in the next sentence. It ist still difficult, but some things fall into place!

Its not my intention to tell people that they HAVE to read the Apocrypha.. but just keep in mind: the German Bible which is approved by the Church contains the OT Apocrypha... so while Amerikans need not read them.. Germans ARE supposed to read them as they are part of their Bible:D --- no, I'm just kidding! (At least: the curriculum does not include them!!!!!) And SLAMJET: yes, you are absolutely right. There is nothing more important than studying the Book of Mormon. And luckily there are no Apocrypha to it so far ;-)

I'd love to add a huge *laugh* to it:lol:

Hm, what else ist the discerning the wheat from the tares but the final judgement?

hmmmmm... Considering the Apocrypha of the Old Testament there is no proof that they are less true than any other book in the Old Testament. There has been no messing around due to doctrinal quarrels. It is only a matter of being a "greek" jew and accepting these books as canonical or being an "aramaic" jew and not accepting them; or as being a catholic and accepting them or being a lutheran and not accepting them. Don't mix them up with the questionable Apocrypha of the New Testament. No, it is not necessary that members read the Old Testament Apocrypha, but it might be a good idea to read them at least once in your life. We need not include them in our scripture study curriculum, but I think reading them ist not spending time for nothing.

Aren't we all a bit off-topic? (I leave this here, even though the last postings have returned to the topic.. it makes me sad that people have to quarrel like this... ) Back to the rosary and other rote prayers... A good friend of mine once told me her opinion about the Lords Prayer and explained that sometimes she is absolutely not in the mood or not able to pray (for example if something really bad has happened that makes her very angry or afraid). There are moments when she finds no words to speak with Heavenly Father. In these moments the Lords Prayer is often the only prayer she is able to speak. And she repeats it as often as it is necessary to find the spirit and the words necessary to say her own prayer. General Authorities advise us often to think of a Hymn to get the spirit we need to pray. But I think using the words of the Lords prayer can be another good way. A couple of weeks ago I was asked to give a talk (15 min.) about the Lords prayer in Sacrament Meeting. Preparing this talk made me think about it quite a bit different. Like there are a million ways to obey the two great commandments - to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves, as they contain the whole law - there are a million ways of how to pray and still pray in the manner the Lord taught us in this great example. Just go through it and think of each phrase.. what does it mean? what goes with it? For example: what do you say, when you say "Our Father"?... With these words you establish a relationship. You accept God as your father: you submit yourself to his guidance, you accept that he sets up the rules in his family and might reprimand or chastise you. But you also show your trust in him, that he asa perfect father will never bring any harm to you. AND you say "our"... which builds a relationship between you and every other child of your Heavenly Father. You accept a responsibility to be a brother, a sister to any other person stepping into your life. And these are only a few ideas on what "Our Father" means. Go on with the next words and so on... and when you have finished the prayer, thinking about what you have said and what the words imply.. you will find the enormous power which is inherent in the Lords Prayer! And you can use almost any other rote prayer in the same manner (take the Canticle of the Sun of Francis of Assisi or some beautiful Irish blessings, OR one of our Hymns) and meditate about the deeper meaning. You will always end up praising the Lord for these wonderful thoughts and insights that can help us gain a deeper understanding of the truths of the Gospel.

No, the Apocrypha isn't any older than any other book of the Old or New Testament. They just were not accepted as canonical and are therefore not in the standard works. And just not read them because there is/might be some falsehoods in them leads me to the conclusion that we should not read newspapers or magazins, as there are some falsehoods in them as well. D&C 88:118: "... Seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea seek ye out of the best books words wof wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith." The Lord does not say: seek out of the Holy Scriptures words of wisdom. He uses "the best books". So what are "the best books"? Those which earn nobel prizes? Those which are on the bestselling lists? Those which have great reviews in the media? I'd rather consider those writings as good books that have the intention to teach people about God, about being good, about being a better person. And many of the Apocrypha (especially those of the Old Testament/the Septuagint) can be considered as such. Even books about buddhism or the koran might have words of wisdom in them... just give it a try instead of reading the next novel... ;-)

Well.. then again there is the question: when do you judge righteously and when unrighteously? There is always a highspeed track to self-righteousness, when you are too sure you are judging righteously. Maybe you are on the safer side if you do not judge at all, unless you really have to judge. And then: rather judge actions than persons. Judging persons does not necessarily makes us more like God.. I'm afraid that judging people often is the first step to despise people. We already HAVE to be a lot like him to judge a person and still love this person with a perfect love.

Matth 7:1 JUDGE not, that ye ne not judged. I do not know the heart of any other person, I can't walk in the shoes of anybody else. I might be able to tell whether I belong to the wheat or the tares, but there is no way to know this of most other people. I'm glad that it is Jesus and His angels who will make this decision. In behalf of people who might be cunning: anything anybody tells me can be brought before the Lord according to D&C.. and by the Holy Ghost we might know whether it is true or not. We can find out what is true and what is not. And this makes it unnecessary to know whether the person is wheat or tares... IF somebody needs to discern this... it is the Bishop. He has the right to judge. And he will if it is necessary. And this is sufficient to me.

I have the same problem with my manger... so while all the other people move closer to the stable throughout the month of December (they are all over our living room), there are some small stacks of hay covering the manger (with the carved Jesus) and the hay will be removed on Christmas Eve....

Well I ask myself: If it was obvious that according to Satans plan we could not progress - and maybe even not receive exaltation - WHY did so many of our brothers and sisters follow him? There must have been something more convincing and promising to his plan... To me agency and the plan itself cannot be considered apart. They together make the reason for the war. (I hope what I wrote is understandable.. its four in the morning, and a foreign language is more difficult when you get tired )

Visiting teaching and home teaching are in vain if you do not do it with all your heart. And sometimes the best lesson are not given verbally but by doing. Two examples... 2 weeks before our family were moving away from our ward, my visiting teachers asked me whether they could visit me. I told them that I would be very busy packing everything in boxes, but that they were welcome to help. Their answer was: well, we better won't disturb you doing what you need to do. THANKS, sisters!!!!..... One day I was taking old wallpaper down from the walls of our living room, as my husband and I had planned to redecorate the room the following day. It was difficult for me climbing up and down the ladder all the time. Suddenly someone was ringing the bell. When I opended the door, our home teachers were standing there, in suits, really neat. I told them, that there was no room to sit down as the living room was a mess due to my task. Well, they took of their jackets, and helped me getting down the wallpaper (one was so tall that he didn't need teh ladder!!). While we were working together they delivered their message and I was done much faster than I had expected. This is my perfect example of home teaching. Thanks, brothers, I'll love you forever for this lesson!

I think it is very difficult to discern which texts of the apocrypha are true scriptures. In the German Bible "Einheitsübersetzung" some apocryphic books from the time of the Old Testament are included, the so called deutero canonical books (Tobit, Judit, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Baruch, Book of Wisdom, and Sirach, and also extra parts in the books of Daniel and Ester ). These books have been part of the Septuaginta which was considered as Holy Scripture by the greek speaking jews who lived in the diaspora in Egypt. Aramaic speaking jews never accepted the greek canon and rejected these deutero canonical books. These books do not sound any different from the books you know in the Old Testament, and they seem to me of worth to be read some times, as there ARE good thoughts in them. The apocrypha to the New Testament are of a total different matter. Many of them come from different groups of the early Christianty, written at a time when most apostles had died. Even at the time of the apostles there seems to have been a growing division in the Church.. on the one side the jewish christs among James and the "greek" church around Paul. Sects were trying to prove their right oft existence and sometimes tried to discredit other groups. A gnostic branch (in Egypt) was very strong until decreed to be heretic. Here it becomes REALLY difficult to discern between Scripture, well meant and educatual writings and made up stuff. The Gospel of Thomas or of Peter are often mentioned, but there are many other books. I have read some of them and sometimes found parts where I had the feeling that the Spirit was confirming the truth of them, but there were many more parts where I didn't get this feeling. One thing is certain: reading the standard works is what we need, but if we want to broaden our horizon, its worth having a look at the apocrypha. There might be a sentence that gives you a new point of view to a gospel question you had for a long time. AND: whoever was in seminary or institute program probably has read all standard works.. don't be so pessimistic! ;-)

hopefully not anything from the time when people were carving messages in stone... ;-) I'd loooooooooove to be there too.. but alas, Germany is really far a way and way beyound my allowance... I hope you have a great time:D

When I read your post, pianoman, my first thought was: marvelling, being astonished is always a matter of expectations (and attitude). And when reading Helaman 5 I heard this voice say to them and to me "change your expectations of what God is capable to do! It is so much more than you could ever imagine! Just let things happen, bo open to see wonders, believe, doubt not!"

Like most principles in the gospel fasting must be understood to be practised. A small child has no understanding, but it might see the parents fast and will be told what they are doing. When it grows older, it might start with fasting for one meal until it finally fasts a whole day like adults... Our kids started one-meal-fasting around their 6th birthday and tried to fast a whole day when they were baptized. But I think there is no strict rule that is to be applied. At the age of 12 any healthy child should be able to fast the full period. Nevertheless: people and especialy children who are sick and pregnant or nursing women should be careful and perhaps discuss the matter with their medical advisor. By the way: There were times when the official day of fasting was NOT always on a Sunday. at the time of Brigham Young it was the first Thursday of the Month (I think this remained until the 1960ies). And BY mentioned in his speech, that Joseph Smith started it in Kirtland when the poor asked for help and were sustained by donations (DBY,169... or Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, chapter 21) Fasting is mentioned several times in D&C, and it is mentioned as a commandment in D&C 59:5, including many other commandments that create a certain spirit of fasting. So YES I would say that fasting once every month is a commandment.

Wow... loving Satan as our brother... I don't know... that's really hard to digest... But on the other hand: God doesn't love sin but he loves the sinner... Can God stop loving one of his spiritual sons?

If this was meant as a reply to my post - sorry, being a stupid little German I do not get the meaning... And just an addition: If our clothing goes with us, what happen to people who don't wear any clothing when being buried? Will they remain in that state for eternity? And what about relief society? anything you want to say concerning my gender?

As far as I remember: Parents will have the opportunity to see their children who died as such raise up to be adults... they will not remain in bodies of children throughout eternity. Who says that the clothing will go with us? Where is this to be found in the scriptures? Never heard of that so far! :confused:

I do not like judging people... not even Satan, because I do not know all the facts. Even considering all that has been revealed by prophets or said in other instances leaves a lot of assumptions and mere guesses. IF Satan is capable of loving, imho this love can be only a tainted one considering what he has done and become. In no way it can be the perfect love our Heavenly Father has, the love we are striving for.

I really like this question!!! Thank you lds4ever! To me it seems like eating meat is ok if we eat not more than necessary, and necessary is defined as times of winter, cold or famine. (12,13) And 14, 15 makes me think of hunting -- and this is only ok in times of famine and excess of hunger... and I would therefore say: not at all in countries like North America or Europe. (unless a biotope has to be put into a balance after having been disturbed by human behavior... as usual... ;-)) But imho there is nothing to be found in the Word of Wisdom, that would sustain any abstinence of eggs or milk products or the use of leather.

1. You have to understand what is baptism all about to be baptized and you have to have an understanding of the concept of right and wrong. This is something a child develops before he/she gets 8 years old. If this understanding is not there, a person cannot be baptized, because that would be the same thing as baptizing little babies. 2. Any person who dies at an age over 8 will receive the temple ordinances, no matter if this person has been mentally handicapped (see NFS Users Guide: Ordinances can be provided without regard to worthiness, mental ability, or cause of death). So even if a person is not baptized during his/her lifetime, all ordinances will be provided vor him/her!!!

Now I know what hell is like... no contact, no idea how to find out what is going on, being absolutely lonely on this planet...

my favorite words are Kaulquappe (German), kikkervisje (Dutch) which means pollywog (another one!!) What is better eternal bliss or a cheese sandwich? a cheese sandwich: nothing is better than eternal bliss, but a cheese sandwich is better than nothing.... why???