spamlds

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  1. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from dprh in Who is the Presiding Authority   
    This is a beautiful example of the extraordinary seamlessness of the priesthood. When a convert joins the Church, as was already mentioned, he moves into the jurisdiction of the key-holders in the stake/ward.
    I served my mission in an area that had no stakes or wards, just branches under the mission's jurisdiction. Our mission president presided over the missionaries AND the members in the mission. Interestingly, a mission president in a mission signs all three blanks on his own temple recommend. That's an interesting situation!
    Another interesting "transfer of power" I saw occurred when they moved a singles branch in our area from one stake to another. I was in a bishopric at the time and I received the call to be in the singles branch presidency with two other high priests. We were instructed to meet at a chapel in the other stake. The area authority president was there and both stake presidencies. The outgoing presidency from the branch was also there for the meeting. The area president presided. The stake president of the first stake released the branch presidency. The unit was then reassigned by the keys of the area authority to the second stake. The stake president of the receiving stake organized the unit and then called us to the presidency of the new branch.
    As soon as the "Amen" of the closing prayer was said, the new presidency swooped off the stand and pulled people into classrooms to interview and extend callings. The receiving stake presidency called an elders' quorum president, clerk, and executive secretary (which were stake callings). The branch president set apart the Relief Society and Sunday School presidents. We counselors took care of setting apart counselors, teachers, and various committee members.
    It was an education on how to set up a church unit from scratch in a day!
  2. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from Vort in Conversion stories that go deeper   
    I was a precocious child raised in a believing, but non-affiliated family.  We were Presbyterians in the same way Trump is a Presbyterian (lol).  My first experience with the Bible went like this.  I found a Bible on a shelf in the house and somehow made my way to Exodus 20 and the Ten Commandments.  I learned to read very young (like age three) and thus, I was able to read the text from Exodus with fairly good comprehension, but some of it confused me.  My grandmother found me with the book and we had an interesting conversation about it.
     
    I tell that story to illustrate where I began.  I had an innate curiosity about God and took things at face value.  Shortly after that, an older neighbor kid tried to frighten me telling me that the devil was as tall as a telephone pole, was red, had horns, and a long tail.  It was frightening to think about, but I developed a bit of skepticism about what he told me.  After all, how did he know?
    At the age of seven, my family visited a Baptist Church.  Even 50 years later, I still recall the preacher's booming voice.  It was thrilling and he was a great singer, too.  This particular Sunday was the day they served communion (what we Mormons call the Sacrament).  I watched with interest because this ritual was unfamiliar to me.  I saw people take little crackers and grape juice.  Some of them bowed their heads afterward.  Some wept.  It was fascinating.  I wanted a little cracker when the tray came by so I could see what all the fuss was about.  When the tray came to me, my mom put my hand down and passed the tray on to my father, who then passed it on to someone else.  I whispered to my mother, "Why can't we have any?"  She tersely replied, "Because we're not SAVED!"   I didn't like the sound of that.  I didn't know what it meant, but being saved sounded a whole lot better than not being saved! 
    My next experience came at the age of 10.  A big Baptist church in our area (in the South) used to send school buses through the neighborhoods to pick up kids and take them to church meetings on Sundays.  (I can't imagine the uproar that would occur if Mormon churches did that in the South.  There would be angry mobs with pitchforks and torches!)  Parents used to send their kids to church and stay home while they watched the ball game.  Some friends of mine had been going and I thought I would join them.  If you went ten Sundays, the church would give you a free Bible as a reward.
    I went every Sunday for about a month.  It was a huge church with a large congregation.  The preacher was an exciting orator.  He preached what I now recognize as doctrines taught by Jonathan Edwards, about man's fallen nature.  Edwards described man as being no more important to God than a "scurvy spider" and would think no more of casting us into hellfire than we would of tossing a spider into a campfire.  Today, I think that preaching that sort of doctrine to a ten year-old ought to qualify as child abuse.  He scared me and probably everyone else in the room.  I didn't want to burn in hell forever.  I was only 10!  So one week, they had the usual "altar call" and up I went.
    To LDS folks who may have never been in another denomination's services before, an altar call is done after the sermon where the preacher has scared you to death about hell fire and offered the way to escape: a profession of faith in Jesus.  The choir starts to sing the hymn, "Just As I Am" and the preacher beckons you to come up and pray with him.  On this occasion, I went up.  In a room full of grown-up, as a little 10 year-old, I swallowed hard and stood up.  I walked down that long aisle to the preacher calling to me.  My head was swimming.  I truly wanted to be saved from hell.  He knelt down with me and said a little prayer, which I recognize as what is now called "the Sinner's Prayer."  It's a little ditty wherewith the new believer confesses belief that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior.  You accept him as Savior and you're considered born again from that moment forward.
    I went home and told my parents about it.  They were amazed.  It wasn't explained to me how this was to occur, but there was supposed to be a baptism on the first Sunday of the following month.  My family showed up on the appointed day, but there wasn't a baptism service.  There had been no information given to us.  We didn't know what was expected.  Turns out that they don't baptize children under 12.  I drifted back into adolescence and the usual distractions until high school.
    At age 11, I found one of those Chick Publications tracts on a school bus about the Apocalypse and the Last Judgment.  That started a lifelong interest in prophecy and the end times.  I remember taking it home and looking up the references in Ezekiel and Revelation. 
    When I was in high school, around the age of 15, I started going to Methodist meetings with some friends.  They had a very active youth group and a friendly, low key pastor.  He focused on the joy of faith more than hellfire.  We shared a common interest in music and he often asked me to play guitar in the church.  I had several spiritual experiences in that church which I now understand to have been the influence of the Holy Ghost.  However, there wasn't any instruction on how one was to feel this communion or guidance from the Spirit. When I asked one of my friends why he went to the Methodist Church, he said that it was a good church because it didn't demand much in the way of lifestyle or obedience.  It didn't preach hell fire.  If there wasn't a God, you didn't waste a lot of time or energy there and, if there was a God, you were "covered."
    I had conversations with the minister about the creed that stated we believed in one church, holy, catholic, and apostolic.  Where were our apostles?  Why catholic when we weren't followers of the Pope or any other authority?  My biggest question was what happened to people who died in ignorance of the gospel?  It was conceivable that billions of souls had died before John the Baptist came along preaching repentance and before Jesus appeared and taught the gospel.  What happened to those people who died before any Christian missionaries could ever reach them?  I couldn't imagine that God could be fair and just while condemning those souls to damnation.  The pastor had no good answers.
    The more I studied the doctrines of Calvinism, Methodism, Presbyterianism, and Catholicism, the more my faith failed me.  I came to the determination that, not only was there no true church on the earth, but that God probably didn't exist either.  I eventually drifted off into studying Buddhism and Hinduism, believing that Jesus was an "avatar" or enlightened soul like Buddha, Mohammed, Moses, or other teacher who taught men a way to enlightenment relevant to their culture and time.  I no longer saw God as a personal being.
    After high school, I went through a period of trial, during which I turned to the Bible.  I got more questions than answers from this time of intense study.  What was the connection between the Old Testament patriarchs like Abraham and the New Testament apostles?  How did Moses fit in with those two extremes?  What did it mean when Christ gave the apostles to "bind" or "seal" on earth and in heaven?  What happened to visitations by angels, spiritual gifts, healings, prophecies, and revelation.  I recall having a conversation with my mother contemplating what it would be like if there still apostles and prophets like there were in the New Testament.
    Pardon the length, but I just wanted to paint an accurate picture of the conversion process.  It took years, but when my heart was ready to receive it, the Lord introduced me to the Book of Mormon and the Church.  The converting power of the Book of Mormon touched me.  The astounding promise of Moroni was amazing to me.  I could know for myself.  Nobody ever told me that.  It was always, "just believe" in what some man said--and every man said something different!  All of a sudden, I could know for myself, directly from God.  I did receive an answer regarding the veracity of Joseph Smith's testimony and the divinity of the Book of Mormon.  I recall thinking after my answer came, that I was now finally "a Christian."  I was compelled by the spiritual "evidence" to believe in Jesus and follow him.  I did this without benefit of missionaries.  It was just the power of God.  A new friend had given me the Book of Mormon and the Spirit took care of the rest.  I was baptized shortly afterward.  I served a mission for the Church, married in the temple, and raised my children in he gospel.  I served in many different callings over the years, including a bishopric and two branch presidencies.  It has been 39 years and I'm still on the path, working out my salvation "with fear and trembling," as Paul called it.  I found the answers I always sought in the doctrines of the Restoration.  It hasn't always been easy.  There have been many trials.  I look back on my early spiritual experiences in other churches with gratitude because the Lord used them to prepare my heart.  It has been a great blessing to be a member of the Lord's earthly kingdom.
     
  3. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from The Folk Prophet in Receiving the Sacrament in another church   
    Perhaps we might inquire of the word of the Lord on this subject, namely the scriptures.  There are a couple of questions that this topic boils down to:
    1. What does the Lord think about ordinances that are performed without proper authority (even though they may look similar to those done by the saints)?
    2.  What has the Lord said about other religious sects and denominations?
    3.  What is the duty of the saints in regard to other churches?
    The scriptures are very clear on these things and it is simple to apply the teachings.
    1.  See Numbers chapter 16.  Korah, Dathan, and Abiram challenged Moses.  They claimed that everyone of the congregation of Israel were holy, not just the priests who were given authority to serve the Lord in the tabernacle.  Moses challenged them back, and dared them to bring an offering of incense before the Lord the next day.  Moses warned them about the consequences of performing ordinances without the proper priesthood authority.  When they made the offering, the earth opened up and swallowed them.  In Acts 19, we read of some "vagabond Jews" who pretended to be exorcists and called out to a possessed person, "We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth."  The evil spirit in their "patient" jumped upon them and thrashed them, sending them fleeing.  As he did so, the evil spirit said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are ye?"  The evil spirit did not obey because these Jews had falsely assumed authority without proper ordination.  Lesson: the Lord does not trifle when it comes to priesthood and ordinances.  
    2.  In the First Vision, the Lord commanded Joseph to "go not after them," meaning the other churches.  We do not practice tolerance by participating in the false ordinances of other religions.  The Lord told Joseph in no uncertain terms that their creeds were abominations, their professors corrupt, and that they "draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof" (JS-History 1:19).  Other churches are not simply mistaken or almost true.  They are the instruments that blind the eyes and harden the hearts of men.
    3. Our responsibility is to invite all to come unto Christ.  That means they come to his kingdom by baptism.  The Book of Mormon points the way to his kingdom.  Baptism is the gateway to the kingdom.  We are to invite them to repent of their errors and abandon them, not to partake of the errors in a spirit of goodwill.  Some will say this is not a humble approach and that it will offend people.  We do not have to be disagreeable to cry repentance.  The Lord said, "...Ye are not sent forth to be taught, but to teach the children of men the things I have put into your hands by the power of my Spirit" (D&C 43:15).  
    We have the word of the Lord.  Why is it nobody looks in for answers?
  4. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from person0 in Are Native Americans the Lamanites?   
    A couple of remarks to some of the points made so far:
    In the Doctrine and Covenants, Sections 28 and 54, the Lord himself spoke to Joseph by revelation and referred to Native Americans as Lamanites.  Some of the first missionaries sent out were to the Lamanites, and they were sent to the West, to Missouri.  I don't know if all Native Americans are Lamanites, but I'm assuming that the Lord knew who he was sending the missionaries to when he directed them to Missouri, unto the "borders of the Lamanites" (D&C 54:8).  People can argue over DNA science all day and never arrive at the truth.  The Lord's word is truth.  It's enough for me.
    One last point--we presume wrongly that the Lamanites at the Book of Mormon's finish are the same "race" that was called Lamanites at the beginning of the book.  The narrative tells us that, after the Savior's appearance among them, they became one single people.  Ethnic and racial differences were blended (See 4 Nephi 1:17).  Intermarriage would have occurred.
    When the wicked began to rebel some 200 years after the Lord's appearance, they split away and became a society defined by ethnicity and social classes once again.  The differences were more political than racial at that point, due to the mixing of the various groups.  
    To say a Native American today is a pure "Lamanite" is probably inaccurate.  It's likely that Lehi's DNA is in many of them, but it would be impossible to say now who was purely Lamanite, Nephite, Jacobite, Lemuelite, etc.
  5. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from JohnsonJones in How to deal with church critics and apostates?   
    For several years, I operated a web site called "The Society for the Prevention of Anti-Mormonism" (hence the name SPAMLDS). It was not so much as a "defend the faith" apologetics site as it was an information portal through which to study the phenomenon of anti-Mormonism.  It became fairly well known and was hated by anti-Mormons and ex-Mormons.  
    One of the things I came to understand was that there is a distinct line between someone who thinks Mormons are cultists because their preacher told them or someone who has a grudge against the Church because they couldn't go to their daughter's wedding because they hadn't paid tithing for years.  Anti-Mormonism is an industry.  They actually refer to themselves as the "counter-cult industry."  This industry consists of about 800 "ministries" and "parachurches" that work with a number of publishers and content producers.  Many of these are for-profit enterprises.  They are not "ministries" in the traditional sense.
    These groups sell their services to your average neighborhood evangelical church.  Those services range from holding seminars to selling them packets of brochures and booklets to give their members.  We found and exposed some of these for-profit ministries who posed as non-profits and solicited donations.  These companies (that's what they really are) can have an international reach, thanks to the Internet.  We outed one "ministry" in Arizona that had set up a web site with a Canadian Internet service provider and posted a web site called "African Ex-Mormons for Jesus."  They were somewhat angry and threatened to sue us when we showed that this African ministry was run by a couple of white guys in Arizona.  
    Over the time we ran the web site, we identified and categorized the various attacks they use into six categories.  Just being able to identify the type of attack goes a long way to disarming their arguments.  You see it's part of a scheme they've worked out.  They don't have to prove anything to be true.  Their mission is to instill doubt.  Arguing with them is pretty pointless.  As soon as you have proven your point to someone, the accuser will pivot to a new topic.  There will always be a new challenger who joined the effort who will send you the "Jesus and Satan are brothers" attack, even though you may have answered it a hundred times before.  There is no end to them.  
    I think that's why there are few Mormon apologetics sites.  The opposition will just wear you out.  It's the same old thing over and over.  They aren't sincere.  They don't research.  They will not "ask of God" at all.  Their hearts and minds are closed.
    Ultimately, the organized anti-Mormon effort is part of a hate movement, as the FBI describes them.  I wrote an article about it that I posted on this forum a couple of years ago.  Here's the link:  https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/58248-anti-mormonism-and-the-seven-step-hate-model/
    When you realize that true anti-Mormons (whether they be apostates, dissenters, or critics outside the Church) are engaged in hate, you can use the methods the FBI suggests in this article.  It works for neo-Nazis and it works for anti-Mormons.  Hate is hate, after all.  The way to deal with it is basically the same.
     
  6. Like
    spamlds reacted to NightSG in We live among monsters.   
    Raise them with a mindset to not be victims.  Enroll them in effective, self-defense-oriented martial arts.  At the very least, they can ensure they're not taken easily.
  7. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from Unity in Are Native Americans the Lamanites?   
    A couple of remarks to some of the points made so far:
    In the Doctrine and Covenants, Sections 28 and 54, the Lord himself spoke to Joseph by revelation and referred to Native Americans as Lamanites.  Some of the first missionaries sent out were to the Lamanites, and they were sent to the West, to Missouri.  I don't know if all Native Americans are Lamanites, but I'm assuming that the Lord knew who he was sending the missionaries to when he directed them to Missouri, unto the "borders of the Lamanites" (D&C 54:8).  People can argue over DNA science all day and never arrive at the truth.  The Lord's word is truth.  It's enough for me.
    One last point--we presume wrongly that the Lamanites at the Book of Mormon's finish are the same "race" that was called Lamanites at the beginning of the book.  The narrative tells us that, after the Savior's appearance among them, they became one single people.  Ethnic and racial differences were blended (See 4 Nephi 1:17).  Intermarriage would have occurred.
    When the wicked began to rebel some 200 years after the Lord's appearance, they split away and became a society defined by ethnicity and social classes once again.  The differences were more political than racial at that point, due to the mixing of the various groups.  
    To say a Native American today is a pure "Lamanite" is probably inaccurate.  It's likely that Lehi's DNA is in many of them, but it would be impossible to say now who was purely Lamanite, Nephite, Jacobite, Lemuelite, etc.
  8. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from Vort in Are Native Americans the Lamanites?   
    A couple of remarks to some of the points made so far:
    In the Doctrine and Covenants, Sections 28 and 54, the Lord himself spoke to Joseph by revelation and referred to Native Americans as Lamanites.  Some of the first missionaries sent out were to the Lamanites, and they were sent to the West, to Missouri.  I don't know if all Native Americans are Lamanites, but I'm assuming that the Lord knew who he was sending the missionaries to when he directed them to Missouri, unto the "borders of the Lamanites" (D&C 54:8).  People can argue over DNA science all day and never arrive at the truth.  The Lord's word is truth.  It's enough for me.
    One last point--we presume wrongly that the Lamanites at the Book of Mormon's finish are the same "race" that was called Lamanites at the beginning of the book.  The narrative tells us that, after the Savior's appearance among them, they became one single people.  Ethnic and racial differences were blended (See 4 Nephi 1:17).  Intermarriage would have occurred.
    When the wicked began to rebel some 200 years after the Lord's appearance, they split away and became a society defined by ethnicity and social classes once again.  The differences were more political than racial at that point, due to the mixing of the various groups.  
    To say a Native American today is a pure "Lamanite" is probably inaccurate.  It's likely that Lehi's DNA is in many of them, but it would be impossible to say now who was purely Lamanite, Nephite, Jacobite, Lemuelite, etc.
  9. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from askandanswer in Moroni, Elijah and Joseph Smith   
    Perhaps another reason we have an angel with a trumpet on the temples is that the plates which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon came forth on the very date of the Hebrew Feast of Trumpets in 1823.  See the January 2000 Ensign article "The Golden Plates and the Feast of Trumpets."  That is the date that Moroni gave Joseph the plates.  (He had seen them previously, but was not permitted to take them.)  The trumpet symbolizes the call for Israel to gather.  It's the call to repent and prepare for the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) and the Feast of Tabernacles (God's return to his covenant people) in preparation for the coming New Year (Rosh Hashannah).  
    Another significant date from the Hebrew calendar that coincides with Church history is that Moses, Elijah, and Jesus appeared in the Kirtland Temple on April 3, 1836.  That was the Passover in that year.  The Passover seder sets a place at the table reserved for Elijah's return.  There seems to be a synchronicity that we don't altogether understand with events of the Restoration and the Jewish calendar.  
  10. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from jonathn in Anti-Mormonism and the Seven-Step Hate Model   
    (Note: This was an article that was published in the Examiner in 2010 that was written in light of a FBI report on how hate groups operate.  It reveals that anti-Mormons are on the same track as other hate groups and that there are specific benchmarks we should be aware of when monitoring their activities.  It also uses the FBI's recommendations to propose a positive, effective way to deal with individuals who have been influenced by these hate groups.  It provides an insight into how we should deal with anti-Mormons that we encounter.)
     
    In the past several years, I have studied anti-Mormonism, not only with the objective of defending my faith against the vicious attacks of these individuals and their organizations, but also with the intent to understand what motivates them. Anti-Mormons generally fall into two broad categories. The first category consists of disaffected members who lost or abandoned their faith and feel resentment or hostility towards the Church and its members. The second category consists of clergy and members of various religions who regard Mormonism as competition or a threat.
     
    A friend who works in law enforcement recently sent me a copy of a report on hate groups that was published in the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin. This informative report defines hate into two categories, which neatly align with the two groups of anti-Mormons. The FBI defines the first group as indulging in "rational hate" which is based on unjust acts. The first group of anti-Mormons begin with "rational hate." The term rational doesn't mean that their hate is justified, but instead indicates that the individual feels that he has been personally wronged or dealt with unjustly by the target of his hate. For example, let us consider the unfortunate case of a man who feels like he has been unfairly dealt with by the Church because he has not been permitted to enter the temple because he has not obeyed the principle of tithing. The day comes when his faithful daughter prepares to enter the temple to be married, yet he cannot attend. Although he has known throughout his life that paying tithing was a requirement to enter the temple, when his personal failure to obey this principle finally has a personal consequence, he lashes out and becomes hostile to the Church. He feels he has been the victim of injustice.
     
    The report defines irrational hate as "[h]atred of a person based on race, religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or national origin" (Schafer and Navarro 1). Anti-Mormon sentiments found among practioners of other religions generally fall into this category. Their feelings are based in insecurity. It may be that the message of the restored gospel makes them question the veracity of their own belief systems and the resulting insecurity causes them to overcompensate by redirecting their hostility towards Latter-day Saints and our religion. Although they profess Christian love, they act compulsively toward Mormonism based in an irrational hostility towards us. Sigmund Freud, in Civilization and Its Discontents, wrote, "It is always possible to bind together a considerable number of people in love, so long as there are other people left over to receive the manifestations of their aggressiveness" (107).
     
    The FBI experts Schafer and Navarro explained:
     
    "Both rational and irrational hate mask personal insecurities. Everyone experiences personal insecurities in varying degrees throughout their lives. The more insecure a person feels, the larger the hate mask. Most people concentrate on the important issues in life, such as earning a living, rearing a family, and achieving personal goals. These pursuits give meaning and value to life. Nonetheless, irrational hate bleeds through day-to-day activities in the form of racial barbs and ethnic humor. Not all insecure people are haters, but all haters are insecure people" (Schafer and Navarro 1).
     
    This irrational hate "bleeds through" in Internet discussion groups, social networks, and blogs all across the Internet. Anti-Mormons coordinate and organize themselves into groups, ministries, and parachurches to disseminate their hate. Of late, it has become the vogue expression among them to say that "I'm not anti-Mormon; I'm anti-Mormonism." They seek to make a distinction between hating the person and hating the religion. Nevertheless, if we were to apply this same reasoning to other faiths, such as Judaism, can it be said that the Nazis only hated Judaism, but not the Jews themselves? How ludicrous!
     
    Schafer and Navarro outline a seven-stage process in the development of hate groups:
     
    1. Group gathers
    2. Group defines itself
    3. Group disparages the target
    4. Taunts target
    5. Attacks target without weapons
    6. Attacks target with weapons
    7. Destroys target (2)
     
    The FBI experts focused their study on violent "skinhead" groups throughout their report; however, the same patterns and characteristics they described can be observed in anti-Mormon ministries and parachurches in each step of the seven-stage process. Let's examine and compare them.
     
    Step 1 - Gathering
     
    The authors stated, "Irrational haters seldom hate alone.They feel compelled, almost driven, to entreat others to hate as they do. Peer validation bolsters a sense of self-worth and, at the same time, prevents introspection, which reveals personal insecurities" (3).
     
    One of the characteristics we see among some ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons from evangelical Christian sects is this compulsion and drive to "entreat others to hate as they do." This peer validation gives them justification of the rightness of their quest. In particular, the sectarians are insecure about their own relationship to God. The doctrines of their own religious sects teach them that they should not expect to feel anything as a result of their faith or conversion. All they can hope for is an assurance that comes from the words of scripture that they are saved or that God has accepted their faith. Perhaps their animus towards Mormonism comes as a reaction to the promise that we share, that one can indeed receive personal revelation from the Holy Ghost and that is something the believer can feel and know for himself. Perhaps it is a form of envy that drives the sectarian anti-Mormon's insecurity.
     
    Step 2 - Defining and Organizing
     
    During this step, Schafer and Navarro explain that "[h]ate groups form identities through symbols, rituals, and mythologies, which enhance the members’ status and, at the same time, degrade the object of their hate (4). It is altogether common for anti-Mormons to organize themselves into ministries and parachurches. Many of these are operated by failed ministers who have been rejected by their denominations, who have fake academic credentials, or individuals frustrated with a sense of powerlessness. In this case, these ministries co-opt the message of traditional Christian sects and use their symbols, rituals and "mythologies" to make members of the group feel that they are involved in a noble, righteous endeavor. The presence of these groups is tacitly supported by mainstream churches who hire them to come offer presentations to their congregations, or who purchase videos, pamphlets, and other anti-Mormon media to circulate among their flocks.
     
    Step 3 - Disparaging
     
    The authors of the FBI report further explain that, "By verbally debasing the object of their hate, haters enhance their self-image, as well as their group status" (4). Verbal criticism of Mormonism among the ranks of Mormon-haters seek to bolster the sense of security the members of the group innately desire. It marginalizes and de-humanizes their target. Certain catch-phrases emerge. "Mormons are a cult." "Mormons believe in a different Jesus." "Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers." There are many such disparaging statements that anti-Mormon groups implant in their members, which then get repeated to the general population. Anti-Mormon hatred could not persist if the haters were to concede that Mormons are Christian believers who study the Bible and seek to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Thus, their mantra must be echoed constantly to bypass any conscious reflection resulting from positive personal contacts with the Church. For example, one Texas parachurch shows the anti-Mormon movie, "The Godmakers" to its youth group every semester to inoculate them from positive contacts with LDS friends in school. This is why you often hear the claim that the haters are "anti-Mormonism, not anti-Mormon" or that they "love the Mormon people, but despise our religion." It assuages any personal guilt that results from hate, yet perpetuates and justifies the enmity underlying it.
     
    Step 4 - Taunting
     
    Schafer and Navarro observed, "Time cools the fire of hate, thus forcing the hater to look inward. To avoid introspection, haters use ever-increasing degrees of rhetoric and violence to maintain high levels of agitation" (4). Members of the Church, particularly those active in Internet discussion groups have seen this occur. Contact with Latter-day Saints will inevitably lead a reasonable person to re-evaluate or abandon his prejudices and to consider us as fellow believers, whether or not conversion is the result of the contact. When dedicated haters observe this return to reasonableness, they react with increased vehemence.
     
    I spent nearly a year in discussions with a group of non-Christians on an Internet forum, exchanging ideas and concepts about our beliefs. Overall, the contacts were amicable with these individuals. During that year, there was a small contingent of "Bible-believing" Christians who were staunchly anti-Mormon. The informal leader of their group was an individual I had seen elsewhere, in other Christian forums, who bullied others of his own faith with his aggressive, domineering use of the Bible to try to establish his personal brand of evangelical Christianity upon these groups. Whenever I managed, through reason and scripture, to achieve a concession or admission that Mormonism might have some scriptural, Biblical underpinnings, although we might disagree on the interpretation of the Bible, the anti-Mormon leader resorted to name-calling, taunting, and personal attacks. (I actually maintained a public log on that forum, cataloging the number of times he called me a hypocrite, an idiot, or a false apostle just to document the pattern of behavior.) He followed the pattern of step four, increasing the hatefulness of his rhetoric and even boasting of his prowess and ability to do violence.
     
    We see this escalation in the demonstrations of "street preachers" at LDS General Conferences in Salt Lake City. These individuals engage in verbally abusive behavior to try to incite violent conflict with members of the Church. They often burn copies of the Book of Mormon, deface sacred temple garments, and engage in other provocative behavior.
     
    The FBI authors also stated, "One study indicated that a majority of hate crimes occur when the hate target migrates through the hate group’s turf" (4). Mormonism's missionary outreach is often blamed as the cause of and justification for anti-Mormon activity. Anti-Mormons claim that if the Church did not send out missionaries to invade their "territory" or to steal the members of their churches, they would leave us alone. However, history shows this to be false. Persecution of Joseph Smith began almost immediately after he first shared the account of his first vision in 1820 with a Methodist clergyman. The Book of Mormon was not revealed until 1823, it's translation didn't begin until 1827, and the Church itself was not founded until 1830. Anti-Mormonism actually preceded the founding of the Church and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.
     
    Step 5 - Attack the target without weapons
     
    The authors of the FBI report determined that a crucial corner is turned at this point. They wrote, "This stage is critical because it differentiates vocally abusive haters from physically abusive ones. In this stage, hate groups become more aggressive, prowling their turf seeking vulnerable targets. (4) Anti-Mormons frequently use the courts and zoning boards to block and prevent the construction of Mormon temples and meetinghouses. In this process, while using the zoning hearings, anti-Mormon groups blanket neighborhoods and communities near the proposed construction sites with anti-Mormon literature and videos to stoke anti-Mormon sentiment. These efforts result in incidents of vandalism or arson, as we saw occur in Mukilteo, Washington and in West Linn, Oregon in 2010. The spread of hate cannot be controlled. Although members of these groups claim to not be party to incidents of violence, they are responsible for dissemination of a message that tells unstable individuals that violent behavior against Mormons will be tolerated.
     
    Step 6 - Attack the Target with Weapons
     
    The escalation from verbal (or Internet) taunts, if not impeded by some external influence, eventually escalates to physically violent confrontations. Schafer and Navarro wrote, "Personal contact empowers and fulfills a deep-seated need to have dominance over others" (4). In 2007, an anti-Mormon parachurch distributed nearly 30,000 free anti-Mormon videos on DVD to areas in the United States where Mormons are found in significant numbers. Some 18,000 of those videos were distributed in and around Mesa, Arizona. Incidents of vandalism occurred and eventually incidents of physical assaults on Latter-day Saint members. In general, such instances have been extremely rare since the end of the 19th century. The last lynching of a Mormon was associated with the controversy generated by the election of Mormon apostle B.H. Roberts to the United States Senate. Throughout the 20th century, into the present day, this author credits the influence of liberal activst groups such as the American Civil Liberties Union, which have acted as a counterweight to the influence of politically-active right-wing Christian groups who are traditionally hostile towards Mormons. Mormonism has benefited from a social stalemate between the secular left and the religious right in the United States for the past century. Erosion of either one of these influences may signal an uptick in anti-Mormon violence.
     
    Step 7 - Destroy the Target
     
    Schafer and Navarro theorized, "The ultimate goal of haters is to destroy the object of their hate. Mastery over life and death imbues the hater with godlike power and omnipotence, which, in turn, facilitate further acts of violence" (5). Sectarian Christianity has a long, unfortunate history of violent crusades to destroy foes it considers heretical or un-Christian. In the 19th century, both secular and religious leaders sought to destroy Mormonism. The Church survived only by fleeing the bounds of civilization and establishing itself in a desert region in the Intermountain West. Today there is nowhere left where the Church might flee for safety from persecution and anti-Mormonism. Thus, it is necessary for us to examine the roots of anti-Mormon hate and help our members cope with the threat it represents. The FBI report gives us a valuable insight into how to disarm hate groups.
     
    Interdiction of anti-Mormon hate
     
    The FBI report examines racist "skinhead" groups as an example of the seven stages. It suggests that interdiction must target the root of the hatred: insecurity. The early steps of the seven-stage process all seek to eliminate the possibility of personal reflection. Personal reflection on the insecurities that are at the source of hate can bring an individual to identify and conclude that their actions are irrational and harmful. This can be a challenge, because--as the authors stated:
     
    "Hate-motivated skinheads have well-rehearsed answers for questions, such as 'Why do you hate?' 'Can’t you see what you’re doing is wrong?' 'How would you
    like it if someone picked on you because of your race?' Skinheads answer smugly; they feel secure as skinheads."
     
    Similarly, such questions to anti-Mormons usually receive pat answers provided for them through manipulations of scripture. They claim they don't hate us, but that they love us and want to save us (by destroying our religion). They don't see what they are doing is wrong because it is encouraged by their respected clergy and justified by false Bible interpretations. Meanwhile, they often portray themselves as victims of persecution from secular society. The Society for the Prevention of Anti-Mormonism once documented the activities of an Indian Christian ministry dedicated to informing the world of the very real persecution of Christians in India that also operated anti-Mormon ministries of its own. How ironic!
     
    Such questions to anti-Mormons are thus ineffective. To reach the past the conscious barriers to reflection, the FBI researchers sugges that interviewers ask probing questions about family relationships, which are probably the cause of the insecurities. Schafer and Navarro suggested:
     
    "Because hate masks personal insecurities, interviewers should temporarily forego questions about why skinheads hate and strive to identify the skinheads’ personal insecurities. Interviewers should begin this probe by asking skinheads about their family relationships, which probably represent the source of the skinhead’s insecurities because a sense of who people are and where they fit in society typically develops within the family structure. Interviewers also should explore skinheads’ future plans, educational goals, and desired employment. This forces skinheads to see themselves as they really are. If forced to look at themselves, skinheads become vulnerable, less resistant to rehabilitation, and, in law enforcement settings, more likely to confess" (6).
     
    The idea is that we want to get those who hate us to reflect upon who they are as people and the motives behind their actions. Attempts to do this typically result in protests that we are engaging in ad hominem attacks. This is not so. We are moving away from the contention to examine the source of the contention. Where does the hate come from? Focusing on family relationships makes them realize that they feel vulnerable and that the hate is an attempt to mask feelings of vulnerability and insecurity. Asking about future plans attempts to get the hater to look ahead to where he is going. Does the hater realize that the ultimate end of his actions will lead to violence and harm? How would it affect his career, his family, his future?
     
    Taking this personal angle is messy. Sometimes the backlash is increased hostility. In dealing with rational haters, such as those who have left the Church and fight against it, they are often trying to avoid dealing with the hurt feelings and the harm they have caused their loved ones. Their conscience is troubled when they think about their willingness to break sealing relationships to parents, spouse, and children. Nevertheless, it is necessary for them to reflect on the end result of their choices to hate and their compulsive behavior. In the case of irrational haters--those from sectarian Christian backgrounds--I have often challenged them to confront the compulsive nature of their anti-Mormon activities by asking them to test their ability to resist engaging in them for a period of three weeks. Like quitting smoking or some other addictive behavior, it is revealing to the individual when he discovers the power of his compulsion, when he cannot resist it for a period of say, three weeks.
     
    The authors explained, "Haters cannot stop hating without exposing their personal insecurities" (2). Personal repentance is the process by which the individual Mormon-hater can confront, confess, and expose his personal insecurities and the actions that come from them. Schafer and Navarro conclude, "Knowing how the hate process works helps interviewers penetrate the hate mask and address the hater’s underlying personal insecurities. If investigators can attenuate these personal insecurities, haters will become more receptive to rehabilitation" (7).
     
    When we encounter anti-Mormonism, let me suggest a three-fold process for interdiction of hate.
     
    1. See the offender as a child of God who is filled with insecurities that motivate his or her hateful actions.
    2. Respond to the false charges, lies, and disinformation with accurate information inasmuch as possible.
    3. Take a personal interest in the hater and inquire about his family background, upbringing, and future plans. Help him reflect on what insecurities drive their actions and cause their animosity towards Mormons. This will be difficult because they cannot go forward until they expose their personal insecuriies. There will be resistance, lashing out, personal attacks, etc.
     
    Every single instance of anti-Mormonism represents a personal tragedy of some kind. It distances a person from God. It blinds the eyes and binds the heart that the Holy Spirit seeks to touch. Although apologetics sites do much good in presenting correct information about the Church and responding to the deceptions of our adversaries, the process of saving souls is personal, not academic. May the Lord grant us power and faith sufficient to break the bands of sin that bind these individuals and help them see the light of truth. Whether they believe Mormonism is true or not is beside the point. The truth is that Mormonism doesn't deserve to be destroyed any more than any other religion. Let each of us enjoy our rights and worship God as he will. If we preach a positive message, we have no need to be anti-anything.
     
     
    Works cited:
     
    Schafer, Don A. and Joe Navarro, The Seven Stage Hate Model: The Psychopathology of Hate Groups. FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, March 2003, 72:3. Print.
     
    Freud, Sigmund, ed. Strachey, James. Civilization and its Discontents. W.W. Norton and Company, Inc. New York, NY, 1961. 107. Print
     
  11. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from Sunday21 in Do I Believe?   
    Realize that belief is a choice. Without knowing, we choose to believe and act. There is tremendous power in that. How many times did Jesus simply ask people to believe?  All the temple recommend questions ask if you believe.  Nothing wrong with believing.
  12. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from NeuroTypical in Favorite Halloween Prank?   
    My two youngest kids loved Halloween and they always wanted me to try to scare them somehow on Halloween night.  Several years ago, when they were still pretty young, we lived in a really rural area, about two hours from any sizable city.  The October nights were always dark, creepy, with foggy fields, full moons, bats, and cobwebs.  There was a small town a few miles away where my wife and I would take them Trick-or-Treating.  On the way home, we used to head to one house out on a remote country road that was always decorated to the hilt, to finish off the night.  
    As we left the last house, we pulled back into our street, which was a rutted dirt road surrounded by fields and woods.  There were no street lights and I had intentionally left the porch light off.  As we approached the house, I started telling my son, age 6 and his sister, age 12, that there had been reports of a strange creature that had been spotted in the area.  My daughter, suspecting that this was my attempt to scare them, just said, "Da-ad!" in that dismissive tone that only Jimmy Fallon can imitate.  As we pulled into the driveway, I was describing the mysterious creature and it's claws.  My daughter was rolling her eyes and the little brother was joking about it, too.
    I turned the car's lights off and it was almost pitch black around the car as I stopped in the driveway.  As they got ready to open the door, I said, "Wait!  There's something coming up behind the car!"  
    "Da-ad!" was the reply.
    What the kids didn't know was that the rubber on the rear window's windshield wiper had fallen off the day before.  I had discovered this by accident when I turned it on during a brief rain shower and it made a loud, scratching noise against the glass that made me nearly jump out of my skin in broad daylight.
    In the inky blackness that surrounded us, I sneaked my hand up to the button and turned on the rear windshield wiper.
    "SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH!" the thing went.  The children's screams were authentic as were the tears afterward.  Old dad had pulled a good one on them.  I don't think I ever laughed so hard in my life.  
    Does your family have any good Halloween traditions or have you pranked them in a memorable way to celebrate the season?  
     
  13. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from NeedleinA in Who tempted Satan?   
    On "angels" or pre-mortal spirits having free will, we should look at D&C 93.

     
    When I read this, the Lord correlates intelligence, agency and existence.  We don't know what "intelligences" are and how they differ from spirits, but I would propose that, in our premortal progression, an intelligence occurs when we become self-aware.  When we become self-aware, we can start to exercise agency.  Otherwise there is no existence.  
    Satan or any of us can choose not to follow the will of God at any point in our existence.  We don't need to be tempted by another.  I can't recall where I read it long ago, but Joseph Smith said that the devil doesn't get credit for all the evil in the world.  Much of the evil comes from us and our choices.  If solely he was responsible, we'd could not be held accountable.  
    As it relates to the OP's question, Lucifer didn't have to be tempted by any external being or force.  The existence of choices makes it possible to act contrary to the Lord's will.  
  14. Like
    spamlds reacted to mrmarklin in Mormon hill cumorah   
    There's no evidence Moroni had to walk very far at all. 
     
    The Mesoamerican geographic model is far from proved. 
  15. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from classylady in Conversion stories that go deeper   
    I hope I haven't already used up too much forum space with my previous post, but I'll try to give you a shorter synopsis of the "mechanics" of my conversion.  
    I was about to turn 19 and I worked at on the shipping dock of a big factory.  It was my first job out of high school.  As I said earlier, I had drifted away from Christianity and had an interest in eastern religions.  One day I was assigned to work at a different loading dock location with a guy I later found out was LDS.  I didn't know anything about the Mormons and I relished the opportunity to ask some questions.  I thought the answers he had were interesting.  As I mentioned earlier, one of my chief objections to Calvinism specifically and Christianity in general were the notions of predestination, free will, and what happens to people who die without a knowledge of the gospel.  The teachings of the Church about the gospel being preached by Jesus in the spirit world were surprising to me.  It just seemed so fair!  I always figured that God would have a way that would be fair to those who didn't have a shot in this life.
    The guy offered me a copy of the Book of Mormon.  I accepted his invitation to read it and he brought be a copy the next day at work.  This was on a Friday.  
    At day's end, I was waiting on my ride and I began to peruse the pamphlets that he gave me along with the book.  I read them in this order: Joseph Smith's Testimony, The Plan of Salvation, and Read the Book of Mormon, It Can Change Your Life.  I remember being strongly impressed at the earnestness of Joseph Smith's account.  It was clear that he wanted to present an extraordinary experience in a sober, direct manner without sensationalizing it.  I reserved judgment because I thought the guy could have just been delusional or something, but I kept an open mind.  I felt that, if he were so, it would become manifest in the stuff he had written.  A was also impressed about the angelic visitations of Moroni, John the Baptist, Peter, James, and John.  It made the connection about the keys of the kingdom and authority that I had believed to be lacking.
    I thoroughly enjoyed The Plan of Salvation.  It was the most reasonable Christian explanation of those topics I had ever read.  I was, up to that time, more Hindu/Buddhist in my thinking, believing in Karma, reincarnation, etc.  I also appreciated the selections from the Book of Mormon in the last pamphlet because it gave me some insight into what I'd be reading about, and it contained the critical reference to Moroni's promise.
    Moroni's promise struck me profoundly.  Everyone had previously answered my questions either with just Bible verses (which people interpreted differently) or with a claim that one needed to just believe without question.  The promise of a personal revelation was unprecedented.  NOBODY had the cojones to say that before!  I have to say that I was somewhat astounded by that.  The guy had essentially said that, if you read this and ask if it's true, you can ask God with the expectation that you'll get an answer.  
    I took the Book of Mormon home and began to read it.  I read it most of Friday night and most of the day on Saturday.  There were certain things that challenged me.  I think they are placed there by God to dissuade those who are unwilling or too biased to get past them.  The killing of Laban by Nephi bothered me, but I had read enough of the Bible to know that God had ordered Joshua to kill men, women, and children in conquering some cities in the Promised Land.  There was the ingrained prejudice that the Bible could not be "added to," but Nephi's arguments about God adding to his own word made sense to me.  The dark skin thing about the Lamanites was a bit troubling, too.  I was the product of a liberal 1970s education at the time and that was a little worrisome.  Then I considered that a book written thousands of years ago might not share the same views on race that our more "enlightened" times would.  An ancient record that had a more "politically correct" presentation might be even more suspect, I thought.
    By Sunday afternoon, I came to realize that I really couldn't find any flaws in what I had read up to that point.  I was near the end of 2nd Nephi or thereabouts.  I realized that, much like Joseph Smith, I was too young and unacquainted with "men and things" to figure it out on my own.  Moroni's promise was still hanging out there so I decided to make the attempt.  I had only really prayed one other time in my life where I felt that I had received an answer.  I mustered up the same degree of sincerity and faith that I had exercised at that time.  I understood that you couldn't be trifling with God.  You can't fake him out or play him.  He knows if you're for real or not.  There's no sense it trying to be insincere about faith.  So when I prayed, it was kind of like KIng Lamoni's prayer: "God, if there is a God, and you're God..."  I resolved that I would accept whatever answer came.  I think that was the key to me getting the answer I did.  I knew that, if this would be true, it would require a commitment.  I would have to do what God directed.  If it was true, I'd have to commit my life's path to that truth.
    When I prayed, I didn't immediately feel anything.  I prayed for several minutes and then stopped.  I resolved, "Well, I'll just keep on reading then.  Maybe I'll find out later after I've read more."  Within minutes, a warm glow enveloped me.  I can't really describe it, but I went from not knowing to knowing.  I marveled that there were people holed up in caves in the HImalayas, meditating, trying to find truth and there it was in my hand.  I had found it.  (I had actually thought about going to India to find a guru, but a book I read told me that, when you're ready, the guru comes to you.)  I didn't realize my "guru" would be a 19 year-old Mormon guy.
    I have to mention that there was a logical "domino effect" that sort of rewired my understanding.  The answer was that the Book of Mormon was true and that Joseph Smith indeed saw God.  That led me to conclude that God indeed did exist and that Jesus Christ was his Son.  That was a big hurdle.  In a moment, with this exciting new information, I had to consciously decide that I would accept Jesus Christ as my Redeemer.  I thought, "Dang, I'm a Christian, now!"  That realization made me determine that I truly had some things to put aside in my life and repent of them.  The the flood included, the need to be baptized, priesthood authority, keys of the kingdom, revelation, apostasy, restoration, and a million more things.  All this seemed to happen in just a fraction of a second.  It was exhilarating!
    I went back to work on Monday and around lunch time the guy came and asked me what I thought of the Book of Mormon.  I told him that I though it was true and asked if I had to be baptized or something to follow through.  I could have pushed him off the loading dock with a feather!  He asked how I knew and I tried to explain to him what I had felt.  He responded, "That's the Holy Ghost!"  When he said that, I felt it all over again.  I learned in that moment how the Spirit speaks.  
    I had not met a missionary or even been to a Church meeting at that time so he hooked me up with some elders to take the discussions.  I went through all seven discussions in three days.  The next week was the Hill Cumorah Pageant in Palmyra.  I gladly went along on the 14-hour trip from Virginia to upstate New York to experience it.  I can't tell you how great it felt to be an unbaptized investigator walking around those Church sites.  Everyone was so friendly and for two days, if felt like the heavens were opened to me.  There was so much I didn't know and new information came pouring in like Niagara Falls.
    For example, we'd been on the road about 4 hours, leaving after work on a Friday evening.  I'm in the car devouring, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, by LeGrand Richards.  Somebody said something about the Prophet, and I asked if he meant Joseph Smith.  He said, "No, Spencer W. KImball--the current prophet."  Imagine my excitement to find out in that moment that the Church still had a prophet and 12 apostles leading it!  Then about 10 minutes later, we pass the Washington Temple.  You can imagine how mind-blowing that was and the discussions about baptism for the dead.  The whole weekend was like that.  
    I was baptized the next weekend.  It was an amazing experience.  I left for a mission 20 months later.  When I came back from my mission, I had been a full-time missionary longer than I had been a member before my mission!  It was a great experience and I grew a lot in my testimony.  Shortly thereafter, I met my wife-to-be and we married.  Now we've been together 33 years.  We have five kids, and very soon our 10th grandchild will be born.  We've had many adventures and many trials.  I have never regretted my decision to join the Church and I still enjoy teaching the gospel today.  
  16. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from classylady in Conversion stories that go deeper   
    I was a precocious child raised in a believing, but non-affiliated family.  We were Presbyterians in the same way Trump is a Presbyterian (lol).  My first experience with the Bible went like this.  I found a Bible on a shelf in the house and somehow made my way to Exodus 20 and the Ten Commandments.  I learned to read very young (like age three) and thus, I was able to read the text from Exodus with fairly good comprehension, but some of it confused me.  My grandmother found me with the book and we had an interesting conversation about it.
     
    I tell that story to illustrate where I began.  I had an innate curiosity about God and took things at face value.  Shortly after that, an older neighbor kid tried to frighten me telling me that the devil was as tall as a telephone pole, was red, had horns, and a long tail.  It was frightening to think about, but I developed a bit of skepticism about what he told me.  After all, how did he know?
    At the age of seven, my family visited a Baptist Church.  Even 50 years later, I still recall the preacher's booming voice.  It was thrilling and he was a great singer, too.  This particular Sunday was the day they served communion (what we Mormons call the Sacrament).  I watched with interest because this ritual was unfamiliar to me.  I saw people take little crackers and grape juice.  Some of them bowed their heads afterward.  Some wept.  It was fascinating.  I wanted a little cracker when the tray came by so I could see what all the fuss was about.  When the tray came to me, my mom put my hand down and passed the tray on to my father, who then passed it on to someone else.  I whispered to my mother, "Why can't we have any?"  She tersely replied, "Because we're not SAVED!"   I didn't like the sound of that.  I didn't know what it meant, but being saved sounded a whole lot better than not being saved! 
    My next experience came at the age of 10.  A big Baptist church in our area (in the South) used to send school buses through the neighborhoods to pick up kids and take them to church meetings on Sundays.  (I can't imagine the uproar that would occur if Mormon churches did that in the South.  There would be angry mobs with pitchforks and torches!)  Parents used to send their kids to church and stay home while they watched the ball game.  Some friends of mine had been going and I thought I would join them.  If you went ten Sundays, the church would give you a free Bible as a reward.
    I went every Sunday for about a month.  It was a huge church with a large congregation.  The preacher was an exciting orator.  He preached what I now recognize as doctrines taught by Jonathan Edwards, about man's fallen nature.  Edwards described man as being no more important to God than a "scurvy spider" and would think no more of casting us into hellfire than we would of tossing a spider into a campfire.  Today, I think that preaching that sort of doctrine to a ten year-old ought to qualify as child abuse.  He scared me and probably everyone else in the room.  I didn't want to burn in hell forever.  I was only 10!  So one week, they had the usual "altar call" and up I went.
    To LDS folks who may have never been in another denomination's services before, an altar call is done after the sermon where the preacher has scared you to death about hell fire and offered the way to escape: a profession of faith in Jesus.  The choir starts to sing the hymn, "Just As I Am" and the preacher beckons you to come up and pray with him.  On this occasion, I went up.  In a room full of grown-up, as a little 10 year-old, I swallowed hard and stood up.  I walked down that long aisle to the preacher calling to me.  My head was swimming.  I truly wanted to be saved from hell.  He knelt down with me and said a little prayer, which I recognize as what is now called "the Sinner's Prayer."  It's a little ditty wherewith the new believer confesses belief that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior.  You accept him as Savior and you're considered born again from that moment forward.
    I went home and told my parents about it.  They were amazed.  It wasn't explained to me how this was to occur, but there was supposed to be a baptism on the first Sunday of the following month.  My family showed up on the appointed day, but there wasn't a baptism service.  There had been no information given to us.  We didn't know what was expected.  Turns out that they don't baptize children under 12.  I drifted back into adolescence and the usual distractions until high school.
    At age 11, I found one of those Chick Publications tracts on a school bus about the Apocalypse and the Last Judgment.  That started a lifelong interest in prophecy and the end times.  I remember taking it home and looking up the references in Ezekiel and Revelation. 
    When I was in high school, around the age of 15, I started going to Methodist meetings with some friends.  They had a very active youth group and a friendly, low key pastor.  He focused on the joy of faith more than hellfire.  We shared a common interest in music and he often asked me to play guitar in the church.  I had several spiritual experiences in that church which I now understand to have been the influence of the Holy Ghost.  However, there wasn't any instruction on how one was to feel this communion or guidance from the Spirit. When I asked one of my friends why he went to the Methodist Church, he said that it was a good church because it didn't demand much in the way of lifestyle or obedience.  It didn't preach hell fire.  If there wasn't a God, you didn't waste a lot of time or energy there and, if there was a God, you were "covered."
    I had conversations with the minister about the creed that stated we believed in one church, holy, catholic, and apostolic.  Where were our apostles?  Why catholic when we weren't followers of the Pope or any other authority?  My biggest question was what happened to people who died in ignorance of the gospel?  It was conceivable that billions of souls had died before John the Baptist came along preaching repentance and before Jesus appeared and taught the gospel.  What happened to those people who died before any Christian missionaries could ever reach them?  I couldn't imagine that God could be fair and just while condemning those souls to damnation.  The pastor had no good answers.
    The more I studied the doctrines of Calvinism, Methodism, Presbyterianism, and Catholicism, the more my faith failed me.  I came to the determination that, not only was there no true church on the earth, but that God probably didn't exist either.  I eventually drifted off into studying Buddhism and Hinduism, believing that Jesus was an "avatar" or enlightened soul like Buddha, Mohammed, Moses, or other teacher who taught men a way to enlightenment relevant to their culture and time.  I no longer saw God as a personal being.
    After high school, I went through a period of trial, during which I turned to the Bible.  I got more questions than answers from this time of intense study.  What was the connection between the Old Testament patriarchs like Abraham and the New Testament apostles?  How did Moses fit in with those two extremes?  What did it mean when Christ gave the apostles to "bind" or "seal" on earth and in heaven?  What happened to visitations by angels, spiritual gifts, healings, prophecies, and revelation.  I recall having a conversation with my mother contemplating what it would be like if there still apostles and prophets like there were in the New Testament.
    Pardon the length, but I just wanted to paint an accurate picture of the conversion process.  It took years, but when my heart was ready to receive it, the Lord introduced me to the Book of Mormon and the Church.  The converting power of the Book of Mormon touched me.  The astounding promise of Moroni was amazing to me.  I could know for myself.  Nobody ever told me that.  It was always, "just believe" in what some man said--and every man said something different!  All of a sudden, I could know for myself, directly from God.  I did receive an answer regarding the veracity of Joseph Smith's testimony and the divinity of the Book of Mormon.  I recall thinking after my answer came, that I was now finally "a Christian."  I was compelled by the spiritual "evidence" to believe in Jesus and follow him.  I did this without benefit of missionaries.  It was just the power of God.  A new friend had given me the Book of Mormon and the Spirit took care of the rest.  I was baptized shortly afterward.  I served a mission for the Church, married in the temple, and raised my children in he gospel.  I served in many different callings over the years, including a bishopric and two branch presidencies.  It has been 39 years and I'm still on the path, working out my salvation "with fear and trembling," as Paul called it.  I found the answers I always sought in the doctrines of the Restoration.  It hasn't always been easy.  There have been many trials.  I look back on my early spiritual experiences in other churches with gratitude because the Lord used them to prepare my heart.  It has been a great blessing to be a member of the Lord's earthly kingdom.
     
  17. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from dahlia in Conversion stories that go deeper   
    I hope I haven't already used up too much forum space with my previous post, but I'll try to give you a shorter synopsis of the "mechanics" of my conversion.  
    I was about to turn 19 and I worked at on the shipping dock of a big factory.  It was my first job out of high school.  As I said earlier, I had drifted away from Christianity and had an interest in eastern religions.  One day I was assigned to work at a different loading dock location with a guy I later found out was LDS.  I didn't know anything about the Mormons and I relished the opportunity to ask some questions.  I thought the answers he had were interesting.  As I mentioned earlier, one of my chief objections to Calvinism specifically and Christianity in general were the notions of predestination, free will, and what happens to people who die without a knowledge of the gospel.  The teachings of the Church about the gospel being preached by Jesus in the spirit world were surprising to me.  It just seemed so fair!  I always figured that God would have a way that would be fair to those who didn't have a shot in this life.
    The guy offered me a copy of the Book of Mormon.  I accepted his invitation to read it and he brought be a copy the next day at work.  This was on a Friday.  
    At day's end, I was waiting on my ride and I began to peruse the pamphlets that he gave me along with the book.  I read them in this order: Joseph Smith's Testimony, The Plan of Salvation, and Read the Book of Mormon, It Can Change Your Life.  I remember being strongly impressed at the earnestness of Joseph Smith's account.  It was clear that he wanted to present an extraordinary experience in a sober, direct manner without sensationalizing it.  I reserved judgment because I thought the guy could have just been delusional or something, but I kept an open mind.  I felt that, if he were so, it would become manifest in the stuff he had written.  A was also impressed about the angelic visitations of Moroni, John the Baptist, Peter, James, and John.  It made the connection about the keys of the kingdom and authority that I had believed to be lacking.
    I thoroughly enjoyed The Plan of Salvation.  It was the most reasonable Christian explanation of those topics I had ever read.  I was, up to that time, more Hindu/Buddhist in my thinking, believing in Karma, reincarnation, etc.  I also appreciated the selections from the Book of Mormon in the last pamphlet because it gave me some insight into what I'd be reading about, and it contained the critical reference to Moroni's promise.
    Moroni's promise struck me profoundly.  Everyone had previously answered my questions either with just Bible verses (which people interpreted differently) or with a claim that one needed to just believe without question.  The promise of a personal revelation was unprecedented.  NOBODY had the cojones to say that before!  I have to say that I was somewhat astounded by that.  The guy had essentially said that, if you read this and ask if it's true, you can ask God with the expectation that you'll get an answer.  
    I took the Book of Mormon home and began to read it.  I read it most of Friday night and most of the day on Saturday.  There were certain things that challenged me.  I think they are placed there by God to dissuade those who are unwilling or too biased to get past them.  The killing of Laban by Nephi bothered me, but I had read enough of the Bible to know that God had ordered Joshua to kill men, women, and children in conquering some cities in the Promised Land.  There was the ingrained prejudice that the Bible could not be "added to," but Nephi's arguments about God adding to his own word made sense to me.  The dark skin thing about the Lamanites was a bit troubling, too.  I was the product of a liberal 1970s education at the time and that was a little worrisome.  Then I considered that a book written thousands of years ago might not share the same views on race that our more "enlightened" times would.  An ancient record that had a more "politically correct" presentation might be even more suspect, I thought.
    By Sunday afternoon, I came to realize that I really couldn't find any flaws in what I had read up to that point.  I was near the end of 2nd Nephi or thereabouts.  I realized that, much like Joseph Smith, I was too young and unacquainted with "men and things" to figure it out on my own.  Moroni's promise was still hanging out there so I decided to make the attempt.  I had only really prayed one other time in my life where I felt that I had received an answer.  I mustered up the same degree of sincerity and faith that I had exercised at that time.  I understood that you couldn't be trifling with God.  You can't fake him out or play him.  He knows if you're for real or not.  There's no sense it trying to be insincere about faith.  So when I prayed, it was kind of like KIng Lamoni's prayer: "God, if there is a God, and you're God..."  I resolved that I would accept whatever answer came.  I think that was the key to me getting the answer I did.  I knew that, if this would be true, it would require a commitment.  I would have to do what God directed.  If it was true, I'd have to commit my life's path to that truth.
    When I prayed, I didn't immediately feel anything.  I prayed for several minutes and then stopped.  I resolved, "Well, I'll just keep on reading then.  Maybe I'll find out later after I've read more."  Within minutes, a warm glow enveloped me.  I can't really describe it, but I went from not knowing to knowing.  I marveled that there were people holed up in caves in the HImalayas, meditating, trying to find truth and there it was in my hand.  I had found it.  (I had actually thought about going to India to find a guru, but a book I read told me that, when you're ready, the guru comes to you.)  I didn't realize my "guru" would be a 19 year-old Mormon guy.
    I have to mention that there was a logical "domino effect" that sort of rewired my understanding.  The answer was that the Book of Mormon was true and that Joseph Smith indeed saw God.  That led me to conclude that God indeed did exist and that Jesus Christ was his Son.  That was a big hurdle.  In a moment, with this exciting new information, I had to consciously decide that I would accept Jesus Christ as my Redeemer.  I thought, "Dang, I'm a Christian, now!"  That realization made me determine that I truly had some things to put aside in my life and repent of them.  The the flood included, the need to be baptized, priesthood authority, keys of the kingdom, revelation, apostasy, restoration, and a million more things.  All this seemed to happen in just a fraction of a second.  It was exhilarating!
    I went back to work on Monday and around lunch time the guy came and asked me what I thought of the Book of Mormon.  I told him that I though it was true and asked if I had to be baptized or something to follow through.  I could have pushed him off the loading dock with a feather!  He asked how I knew and I tried to explain to him what I had felt.  He responded, "That's the Holy Ghost!"  When he said that, I felt it all over again.  I learned in that moment how the Spirit speaks.  
    I had not met a missionary or even been to a Church meeting at that time so he hooked me up with some elders to take the discussions.  I went through all seven discussions in three days.  The next week was the Hill Cumorah Pageant in Palmyra.  I gladly went along on the 14-hour trip from Virginia to upstate New York to experience it.  I can't tell you how great it felt to be an unbaptized investigator walking around those Church sites.  Everyone was so friendly and for two days, if felt like the heavens were opened to me.  There was so much I didn't know and new information came pouring in like Niagara Falls.
    For example, we'd been on the road about 4 hours, leaving after work on a Friday evening.  I'm in the car devouring, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, by LeGrand Richards.  Somebody said something about the Prophet, and I asked if he meant Joseph Smith.  He said, "No, Spencer W. KImball--the current prophet."  Imagine my excitement to find out in that moment that the Church still had a prophet and 12 apostles leading it!  Then about 10 minutes later, we pass the Washington Temple.  You can imagine how mind-blowing that was and the discussions about baptism for the dead.  The whole weekend was like that.  
    I was baptized the next weekend.  It was an amazing experience.  I left for a mission 20 months later.  When I came back from my mission, I had been a full-time missionary longer than I had been a member before my mission!  It was a great experience and I grew a lot in my testimony.  Shortly thereafter, I met my wife-to-be and we married.  Now we've been together 33 years.  We have five kids, and very soon our 10th grandchild will be born.  We've had many adventures and many trials.  I have never regretted my decision to join the Church and I still enjoy teaching the gospel today.  
  18. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from bytebear in Conversion stories that go deeper   
    I hope I haven't already used up too much forum space with my previous post, but I'll try to give you a shorter synopsis of the "mechanics" of my conversion.  
    I was about to turn 19 and I worked at on the shipping dock of a big factory.  It was my first job out of high school.  As I said earlier, I had drifted away from Christianity and had an interest in eastern religions.  One day I was assigned to work at a different loading dock location with a guy I later found out was LDS.  I didn't know anything about the Mormons and I relished the opportunity to ask some questions.  I thought the answers he had were interesting.  As I mentioned earlier, one of my chief objections to Calvinism specifically and Christianity in general were the notions of predestination, free will, and what happens to people who die without a knowledge of the gospel.  The teachings of the Church about the gospel being preached by Jesus in the spirit world were surprising to me.  It just seemed so fair!  I always figured that God would have a way that would be fair to those who didn't have a shot in this life.
    The guy offered me a copy of the Book of Mormon.  I accepted his invitation to read it and he brought be a copy the next day at work.  This was on a Friday.  
    At day's end, I was waiting on my ride and I began to peruse the pamphlets that he gave me along with the book.  I read them in this order: Joseph Smith's Testimony, The Plan of Salvation, and Read the Book of Mormon, It Can Change Your Life.  I remember being strongly impressed at the earnestness of Joseph Smith's account.  It was clear that he wanted to present an extraordinary experience in a sober, direct manner without sensationalizing it.  I reserved judgment because I thought the guy could have just been delusional or something, but I kept an open mind.  I felt that, if he were so, it would become manifest in the stuff he had written.  A was also impressed about the angelic visitations of Moroni, John the Baptist, Peter, James, and John.  It made the connection about the keys of the kingdom and authority that I had believed to be lacking.
    I thoroughly enjoyed The Plan of Salvation.  It was the most reasonable Christian explanation of those topics I had ever read.  I was, up to that time, more Hindu/Buddhist in my thinking, believing in Karma, reincarnation, etc.  I also appreciated the selections from the Book of Mormon in the last pamphlet because it gave me some insight into what I'd be reading about, and it contained the critical reference to Moroni's promise.
    Moroni's promise struck me profoundly.  Everyone had previously answered my questions either with just Bible verses (which people interpreted differently) or with a claim that one needed to just believe without question.  The promise of a personal revelation was unprecedented.  NOBODY had the cojones to say that before!  I have to say that I was somewhat astounded by that.  The guy had essentially said that, if you read this and ask if it's true, you can ask God with the expectation that you'll get an answer.  
    I took the Book of Mormon home and began to read it.  I read it most of Friday night and most of the day on Saturday.  There were certain things that challenged me.  I think they are placed there by God to dissuade those who are unwilling or too biased to get past them.  The killing of Laban by Nephi bothered me, but I had read enough of the Bible to know that God had ordered Joshua to kill men, women, and children in conquering some cities in the Promised Land.  There was the ingrained prejudice that the Bible could not be "added to," but Nephi's arguments about God adding to his own word made sense to me.  The dark skin thing about the Lamanites was a bit troubling, too.  I was the product of a liberal 1970s education at the time and that was a little worrisome.  Then I considered that a book written thousands of years ago might not share the same views on race that our more "enlightened" times would.  An ancient record that had a more "politically correct" presentation might be even more suspect, I thought.
    By Sunday afternoon, I came to realize that I really couldn't find any flaws in what I had read up to that point.  I was near the end of 2nd Nephi or thereabouts.  I realized that, much like Joseph Smith, I was too young and unacquainted with "men and things" to figure it out on my own.  Moroni's promise was still hanging out there so I decided to make the attempt.  I had only really prayed one other time in my life where I felt that I had received an answer.  I mustered up the same degree of sincerity and faith that I had exercised at that time.  I understood that you couldn't be trifling with God.  You can't fake him out or play him.  He knows if you're for real or not.  There's no sense it trying to be insincere about faith.  So when I prayed, it was kind of like KIng Lamoni's prayer: "God, if there is a God, and you're God..."  I resolved that I would accept whatever answer came.  I think that was the key to me getting the answer I did.  I knew that, if this would be true, it would require a commitment.  I would have to do what God directed.  If it was true, I'd have to commit my life's path to that truth.
    When I prayed, I didn't immediately feel anything.  I prayed for several minutes and then stopped.  I resolved, "Well, I'll just keep on reading then.  Maybe I'll find out later after I've read more."  Within minutes, a warm glow enveloped me.  I can't really describe it, but I went from not knowing to knowing.  I marveled that there were people holed up in caves in the HImalayas, meditating, trying to find truth and there it was in my hand.  I had found it.  (I had actually thought about going to India to find a guru, but a book I read told me that, when you're ready, the guru comes to you.)  I didn't realize my "guru" would be a 19 year-old Mormon guy.
    I have to mention that there was a logical "domino effect" that sort of rewired my understanding.  The answer was that the Book of Mormon was true and that Joseph Smith indeed saw God.  That led me to conclude that God indeed did exist and that Jesus Christ was his Son.  That was a big hurdle.  In a moment, with this exciting new information, I had to consciously decide that I would accept Jesus Christ as my Redeemer.  I thought, "Dang, I'm a Christian, now!"  That realization made me determine that I truly had some things to put aside in my life and repent of them.  The the flood included, the need to be baptized, priesthood authority, keys of the kingdom, revelation, apostasy, restoration, and a million more things.  All this seemed to happen in just a fraction of a second.  It was exhilarating!
    I went back to work on Monday and around lunch time the guy came and asked me what I thought of the Book of Mormon.  I told him that I though it was true and asked if I had to be baptized or something to follow through.  I could have pushed him off the loading dock with a feather!  He asked how I knew and I tried to explain to him what I had felt.  He responded, "That's the Holy Ghost!"  When he said that, I felt it all over again.  I learned in that moment how the Spirit speaks.  
    I had not met a missionary or even been to a Church meeting at that time so he hooked me up with some elders to take the discussions.  I went through all seven discussions in three days.  The next week was the Hill Cumorah Pageant in Palmyra.  I gladly went along on the 14-hour trip from Virginia to upstate New York to experience it.  I can't tell you how great it felt to be an unbaptized investigator walking around those Church sites.  Everyone was so friendly and for two days, if felt like the heavens were opened to me.  There was so much I didn't know and new information came pouring in like Niagara Falls.
    For example, we'd been on the road about 4 hours, leaving after work on a Friday evening.  I'm in the car devouring, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, by LeGrand Richards.  Somebody said something about the Prophet, and I asked if he meant Joseph Smith.  He said, "No, Spencer W. KImball--the current prophet."  Imagine my excitement to find out in that moment that the Church still had a prophet and 12 apostles leading it!  Then about 10 minutes later, we pass the Washington Temple.  You can imagine how mind-blowing that was and the discussions about baptism for the dead.  The whole weekend was like that.  
    I was baptized the next weekend.  It was an amazing experience.  I left for a mission 20 months later.  When I came back from my mission, I had been a full-time missionary longer than I had been a member before my mission!  It was a great experience and I grew a lot in my testimony.  Shortly thereafter, I met my wife-to-be and we married.  Now we've been together 33 years.  We have five kids, and very soon our 10th grandchild will be born.  We've had many adventures and many trials.  I have never regretted my decision to join the Church and I still enjoy teaching the gospel today.  
  19. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from Sunday21 in Why things are not perfect in the church   
    There are a lot of facets to the OP's question.  Here are some things that come to mind.
    I heard President Hinckley say once that "Even in the highest councils of the Church, the "still, small voice" is still the "still, small voice."  The same Spirit that guides you in your life is the same Spirit that guides the Church.
    D&C 8:2-3 says:
    Think of what that says.  One of the greatest Biblical miracles, the parting of the Red Sea, came from the Holy Ghost speaking to Moses' mind and heart.  It was what we call a prompting.  A great miracle can come about from a revelation that is almost imperceptible to an outsider.
    I've been in Ward council meetings where such promptings came to leaders and inspired guidance was received.  Many of us can testify of receiving personal guidance in this manner.  It's just the way the Lord works.  Sometimes it's necessary for him to come down and straighten things out--like the First Vision.  The whole world had the nature of the Godhead so wrong that he had to appear to set it straight again.  Most issues aren't that critical and the Lord lets us work our way through them.  
    Paul called it seeing through a glass darkly.  Everything is a test for us, every single day.
    Another reason things are not perfect is because of opposition.  There has to be opposition in ALL things.  Whatever great plans we make based on God's inspiration inevitably must be opposed.  That makes our plans less effective and we have to struggle our way through them.  Opposition tests our vision of what we desire.  If our desires are true, then the vision will endure the opposition.  If our desires are just wishes or whims, they'll fail when opposed and we won't be able to maintain the vision of what we desire.  
    The Church is perfect in its organization because it responds to revelation.  We tend to think of something perfect as unchangeable.  That's a false sectarian concept, like the "inerrant" Bible in which they believe.  The ability to adapt to changing circumstances guided by divine inspiration is a hallmark of a perfect organization.
     
  20. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from askandanswer in Conversion stories that go deeper   
    I hope I haven't already used up too much forum space with my previous post, but I'll try to give you a shorter synopsis of the "mechanics" of my conversion.  
    I was about to turn 19 and I worked at on the shipping dock of a big factory.  It was my first job out of high school.  As I said earlier, I had drifted away from Christianity and had an interest in eastern religions.  One day I was assigned to work at a different loading dock location with a guy I later found out was LDS.  I didn't know anything about the Mormons and I relished the opportunity to ask some questions.  I thought the answers he had were interesting.  As I mentioned earlier, one of my chief objections to Calvinism specifically and Christianity in general were the notions of predestination, free will, and what happens to people who die without a knowledge of the gospel.  The teachings of the Church about the gospel being preached by Jesus in the spirit world were surprising to me.  It just seemed so fair!  I always figured that God would have a way that would be fair to those who didn't have a shot in this life.
    The guy offered me a copy of the Book of Mormon.  I accepted his invitation to read it and he brought be a copy the next day at work.  This was on a Friday.  
    At day's end, I was waiting on my ride and I began to peruse the pamphlets that he gave me along with the book.  I read them in this order: Joseph Smith's Testimony, The Plan of Salvation, and Read the Book of Mormon, It Can Change Your Life.  I remember being strongly impressed at the earnestness of Joseph Smith's account.  It was clear that he wanted to present an extraordinary experience in a sober, direct manner without sensationalizing it.  I reserved judgment because I thought the guy could have just been delusional or something, but I kept an open mind.  I felt that, if he were so, it would become manifest in the stuff he had written.  A was also impressed about the angelic visitations of Moroni, John the Baptist, Peter, James, and John.  It made the connection about the keys of the kingdom and authority that I had believed to be lacking.
    I thoroughly enjoyed The Plan of Salvation.  It was the most reasonable Christian explanation of those topics I had ever read.  I was, up to that time, more Hindu/Buddhist in my thinking, believing in Karma, reincarnation, etc.  I also appreciated the selections from the Book of Mormon in the last pamphlet because it gave me some insight into what I'd be reading about, and it contained the critical reference to Moroni's promise.
    Moroni's promise struck me profoundly.  Everyone had previously answered my questions either with just Bible verses (which people interpreted differently) or with a claim that one needed to just believe without question.  The promise of a personal revelation was unprecedented.  NOBODY had the cojones to say that before!  I have to say that I was somewhat astounded by that.  The guy had essentially said that, if you read this and ask if it's true, you can ask God with the expectation that you'll get an answer.  
    I took the Book of Mormon home and began to read it.  I read it most of Friday night and most of the day on Saturday.  There were certain things that challenged me.  I think they are placed there by God to dissuade those who are unwilling or too biased to get past them.  The killing of Laban by Nephi bothered me, but I had read enough of the Bible to know that God had ordered Joshua to kill men, women, and children in conquering some cities in the Promised Land.  There was the ingrained prejudice that the Bible could not be "added to," but Nephi's arguments about God adding to his own word made sense to me.  The dark skin thing about the Lamanites was a bit troubling, too.  I was the product of a liberal 1970s education at the time and that was a little worrisome.  Then I considered that a book written thousands of years ago might not share the same views on race that our more "enlightened" times would.  An ancient record that had a more "politically correct" presentation might be even more suspect, I thought.
    By Sunday afternoon, I came to realize that I really couldn't find any flaws in what I had read up to that point.  I was near the end of 2nd Nephi or thereabouts.  I realized that, much like Joseph Smith, I was too young and unacquainted with "men and things" to figure it out on my own.  Moroni's promise was still hanging out there so I decided to make the attempt.  I had only really prayed one other time in my life where I felt that I had received an answer.  I mustered up the same degree of sincerity and faith that I had exercised at that time.  I understood that you couldn't be trifling with God.  You can't fake him out or play him.  He knows if you're for real or not.  There's no sense it trying to be insincere about faith.  So when I prayed, it was kind of like KIng Lamoni's prayer: "God, if there is a God, and you're God..."  I resolved that I would accept whatever answer came.  I think that was the key to me getting the answer I did.  I knew that, if this would be true, it would require a commitment.  I would have to do what God directed.  If it was true, I'd have to commit my life's path to that truth.
    When I prayed, I didn't immediately feel anything.  I prayed for several minutes and then stopped.  I resolved, "Well, I'll just keep on reading then.  Maybe I'll find out later after I've read more."  Within minutes, a warm glow enveloped me.  I can't really describe it, but I went from not knowing to knowing.  I marveled that there were people holed up in caves in the HImalayas, meditating, trying to find truth and there it was in my hand.  I had found it.  (I had actually thought about going to India to find a guru, but a book I read told me that, when you're ready, the guru comes to you.)  I didn't realize my "guru" would be a 19 year-old Mormon guy.
    I have to mention that there was a logical "domino effect" that sort of rewired my understanding.  The answer was that the Book of Mormon was true and that Joseph Smith indeed saw God.  That led me to conclude that God indeed did exist and that Jesus Christ was his Son.  That was a big hurdle.  In a moment, with this exciting new information, I had to consciously decide that I would accept Jesus Christ as my Redeemer.  I thought, "Dang, I'm a Christian, now!"  That realization made me determine that I truly had some things to put aside in my life and repent of them.  The the flood included, the need to be baptized, priesthood authority, keys of the kingdom, revelation, apostasy, restoration, and a million more things.  All this seemed to happen in just a fraction of a second.  It was exhilarating!
    I went back to work on Monday and around lunch time the guy came and asked me what I thought of the Book of Mormon.  I told him that I though it was true and asked if I had to be baptized or something to follow through.  I could have pushed him off the loading dock with a feather!  He asked how I knew and I tried to explain to him what I had felt.  He responded, "That's the Holy Ghost!"  When he said that, I felt it all over again.  I learned in that moment how the Spirit speaks.  
    I had not met a missionary or even been to a Church meeting at that time so he hooked me up with some elders to take the discussions.  I went through all seven discussions in three days.  The next week was the Hill Cumorah Pageant in Palmyra.  I gladly went along on the 14-hour trip from Virginia to upstate New York to experience it.  I can't tell you how great it felt to be an unbaptized investigator walking around those Church sites.  Everyone was so friendly and for two days, if felt like the heavens were opened to me.  There was so much I didn't know and new information came pouring in like Niagara Falls.
    For example, we'd been on the road about 4 hours, leaving after work on a Friday evening.  I'm in the car devouring, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, by LeGrand Richards.  Somebody said something about the Prophet, and I asked if he meant Joseph Smith.  He said, "No, Spencer W. KImball--the current prophet."  Imagine my excitement to find out in that moment that the Church still had a prophet and 12 apostles leading it!  Then about 10 minutes later, we pass the Washington Temple.  You can imagine how mind-blowing that was and the discussions about baptism for the dead.  The whole weekend was like that.  
    I was baptized the next weekend.  It was an amazing experience.  I left for a mission 20 months later.  When I came back from my mission, I had been a full-time missionary longer than I had been a member before my mission!  It was a great experience and I grew a lot in my testimony.  Shortly thereafter, I met my wife-to-be and we married.  Now we've been together 33 years.  We have five kids, and very soon our 10th grandchild will be born.  We've had many adventures and many trials.  I have never regretted my decision to join the Church and I still enjoy teaching the gospel today.  
  21. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from prisonchaplain in Conversion stories that go deeper   
    I hope I haven't already used up too much forum space with my previous post, but I'll try to give you a shorter synopsis of the "mechanics" of my conversion.  
    I was about to turn 19 and I worked at on the shipping dock of a big factory.  It was my first job out of high school.  As I said earlier, I had drifted away from Christianity and had an interest in eastern religions.  One day I was assigned to work at a different loading dock location with a guy I later found out was LDS.  I didn't know anything about the Mormons and I relished the opportunity to ask some questions.  I thought the answers he had were interesting.  As I mentioned earlier, one of my chief objections to Calvinism specifically and Christianity in general were the notions of predestination, free will, and what happens to people who die without a knowledge of the gospel.  The teachings of the Church about the gospel being preached by Jesus in the spirit world were surprising to me.  It just seemed so fair!  I always figured that God would have a way that would be fair to those who didn't have a shot in this life.
    The guy offered me a copy of the Book of Mormon.  I accepted his invitation to read it and he brought be a copy the next day at work.  This was on a Friday.  
    At day's end, I was waiting on my ride and I began to peruse the pamphlets that he gave me along with the book.  I read them in this order: Joseph Smith's Testimony, The Plan of Salvation, and Read the Book of Mormon, It Can Change Your Life.  I remember being strongly impressed at the earnestness of Joseph Smith's account.  It was clear that he wanted to present an extraordinary experience in a sober, direct manner without sensationalizing it.  I reserved judgment because I thought the guy could have just been delusional or something, but I kept an open mind.  I felt that, if he were so, it would become manifest in the stuff he had written.  A was also impressed about the angelic visitations of Moroni, John the Baptist, Peter, James, and John.  It made the connection about the keys of the kingdom and authority that I had believed to be lacking.
    I thoroughly enjoyed The Plan of Salvation.  It was the most reasonable Christian explanation of those topics I had ever read.  I was, up to that time, more Hindu/Buddhist in my thinking, believing in Karma, reincarnation, etc.  I also appreciated the selections from the Book of Mormon in the last pamphlet because it gave me some insight into what I'd be reading about, and it contained the critical reference to Moroni's promise.
    Moroni's promise struck me profoundly.  Everyone had previously answered my questions either with just Bible verses (which people interpreted differently) or with a claim that one needed to just believe without question.  The promise of a personal revelation was unprecedented.  NOBODY had the cojones to say that before!  I have to say that I was somewhat astounded by that.  The guy had essentially said that, if you read this and ask if it's true, you can ask God with the expectation that you'll get an answer.  
    I took the Book of Mormon home and began to read it.  I read it most of Friday night and most of the day on Saturday.  There were certain things that challenged me.  I think they are placed there by God to dissuade those who are unwilling or too biased to get past them.  The killing of Laban by Nephi bothered me, but I had read enough of the Bible to know that God had ordered Joshua to kill men, women, and children in conquering some cities in the Promised Land.  There was the ingrained prejudice that the Bible could not be "added to," but Nephi's arguments about God adding to his own word made sense to me.  The dark skin thing about the Lamanites was a bit troubling, too.  I was the product of a liberal 1970s education at the time and that was a little worrisome.  Then I considered that a book written thousands of years ago might not share the same views on race that our more "enlightened" times would.  An ancient record that had a more "politically correct" presentation might be even more suspect, I thought.
    By Sunday afternoon, I came to realize that I really couldn't find any flaws in what I had read up to that point.  I was near the end of 2nd Nephi or thereabouts.  I realized that, much like Joseph Smith, I was too young and unacquainted with "men and things" to figure it out on my own.  Moroni's promise was still hanging out there so I decided to make the attempt.  I had only really prayed one other time in my life where I felt that I had received an answer.  I mustered up the same degree of sincerity and faith that I had exercised at that time.  I understood that you couldn't be trifling with God.  You can't fake him out or play him.  He knows if you're for real or not.  There's no sense it trying to be insincere about faith.  So when I prayed, it was kind of like KIng Lamoni's prayer: "God, if there is a God, and you're God..."  I resolved that I would accept whatever answer came.  I think that was the key to me getting the answer I did.  I knew that, if this would be true, it would require a commitment.  I would have to do what God directed.  If it was true, I'd have to commit my life's path to that truth.
    When I prayed, I didn't immediately feel anything.  I prayed for several minutes and then stopped.  I resolved, "Well, I'll just keep on reading then.  Maybe I'll find out later after I've read more."  Within minutes, a warm glow enveloped me.  I can't really describe it, but I went from not knowing to knowing.  I marveled that there were people holed up in caves in the HImalayas, meditating, trying to find truth and there it was in my hand.  I had found it.  (I had actually thought about going to India to find a guru, but a book I read told me that, when you're ready, the guru comes to you.)  I didn't realize my "guru" would be a 19 year-old Mormon guy.
    I have to mention that there was a logical "domino effect" that sort of rewired my understanding.  The answer was that the Book of Mormon was true and that Joseph Smith indeed saw God.  That led me to conclude that God indeed did exist and that Jesus Christ was his Son.  That was a big hurdle.  In a moment, with this exciting new information, I had to consciously decide that I would accept Jesus Christ as my Redeemer.  I thought, "Dang, I'm a Christian, now!"  That realization made me determine that I truly had some things to put aside in my life and repent of them.  The the flood included, the need to be baptized, priesthood authority, keys of the kingdom, revelation, apostasy, restoration, and a million more things.  All this seemed to happen in just a fraction of a second.  It was exhilarating!
    I went back to work on Monday and around lunch time the guy came and asked me what I thought of the Book of Mormon.  I told him that I though it was true and asked if I had to be baptized or something to follow through.  I could have pushed him off the loading dock with a feather!  He asked how I knew and I tried to explain to him what I had felt.  He responded, "That's the Holy Ghost!"  When he said that, I felt it all over again.  I learned in that moment how the Spirit speaks.  
    I had not met a missionary or even been to a Church meeting at that time so he hooked me up with some elders to take the discussions.  I went through all seven discussions in three days.  The next week was the Hill Cumorah Pageant in Palmyra.  I gladly went along on the 14-hour trip from Virginia to upstate New York to experience it.  I can't tell you how great it felt to be an unbaptized investigator walking around those Church sites.  Everyone was so friendly and for two days, if felt like the heavens were opened to me.  There was so much I didn't know and new information came pouring in like Niagara Falls.
    For example, we'd been on the road about 4 hours, leaving after work on a Friday evening.  I'm in the car devouring, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, by LeGrand Richards.  Somebody said something about the Prophet, and I asked if he meant Joseph Smith.  He said, "No, Spencer W. KImball--the current prophet."  Imagine my excitement to find out in that moment that the Church still had a prophet and 12 apostles leading it!  Then about 10 minutes later, we pass the Washington Temple.  You can imagine how mind-blowing that was and the discussions about baptism for the dead.  The whole weekend was like that.  
    I was baptized the next weekend.  It was an amazing experience.  I left for a mission 20 months later.  When I came back from my mission, I had been a full-time missionary longer than I had been a member before my mission!  It was a great experience and I grew a lot in my testimony.  Shortly thereafter, I met my wife-to-be and we married.  Now we've been together 33 years.  We have five kids, and very soon our 10th grandchild will be born.  We've had many adventures and many trials.  I have never regretted my decision to join the Church and I still enjoy teaching the gospel today.  
  22. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from Anddenex in Conversion stories that go deeper   
    I was a precocious child raised in a believing, but non-affiliated family.  We were Presbyterians in the same way Trump is a Presbyterian (lol).  My first experience with the Bible went like this.  I found a Bible on a shelf in the house and somehow made my way to Exodus 20 and the Ten Commandments.  I learned to read very young (like age three) and thus, I was able to read the text from Exodus with fairly good comprehension, but some of it confused me.  My grandmother found me with the book and we had an interesting conversation about it.
     
    I tell that story to illustrate where I began.  I had an innate curiosity about God and took things at face value.  Shortly after that, an older neighbor kid tried to frighten me telling me that the devil was as tall as a telephone pole, was red, had horns, and a long tail.  It was frightening to think about, but I developed a bit of skepticism about what he told me.  After all, how did he know?
    At the age of seven, my family visited a Baptist Church.  Even 50 years later, I still recall the preacher's booming voice.  It was thrilling and he was a great singer, too.  This particular Sunday was the day they served communion (what we Mormons call the Sacrament).  I watched with interest because this ritual was unfamiliar to me.  I saw people take little crackers and grape juice.  Some of them bowed their heads afterward.  Some wept.  It was fascinating.  I wanted a little cracker when the tray came by so I could see what all the fuss was about.  When the tray came to me, my mom put my hand down and passed the tray on to my father, who then passed it on to someone else.  I whispered to my mother, "Why can't we have any?"  She tersely replied, "Because we're not SAVED!"   I didn't like the sound of that.  I didn't know what it meant, but being saved sounded a whole lot better than not being saved! 
    My next experience came at the age of 10.  A big Baptist church in our area (in the South) used to send school buses through the neighborhoods to pick up kids and take them to church meetings on Sundays.  (I can't imagine the uproar that would occur if Mormon churches did that in the South.  There would be angry mobs with pitchforks and torches!)  Parents used to send their kids to church and stay home while they watched the ball game.  Some friends of mine had been going and I thought I would join them.  If you went ten Sundays, the church would give you a free Bible as a reward.
    I went every Sunday for about a month.  It was a huge church with a large congregation.  The preacher was an exciting orator.  He preached what I now recognize as doctrines taught by Jonathan Edwards, about man's fallen nature.  Edwards described man as being no more important to God than a "scurvy spider" and would think no more of casting us into hellfire than we would of tossing a spider into a campfire.  Today, I think that preaching that sort of doctrine to a ten year-old ought to qualify as child abuse.  He scared me and probably everyone else in the room.  I didn't want to burn in hell forever.  I was only 10!  So one week, they had the usual "altar call" and up I went.
    To LDS folks who may have never been in another denomination's services before, an altar call is done after the sermon where the preacher has scared you to death about hell fire and offered the way to escape: a profession of faith in Jesus.  The choir starts to sing the hymn, "Just As I Am" and the preacher beckons you to come up and pray with him.  On this occasion, I went up.  In a room full of grown-up, as a little 10 year-old, I swallowed hard and stood up.  I walked down that long aisle to the preacher calling to me.  My head was swimming.  I truly wanted to be saved from hell.  He knelt down with me and said a little prayer, which I recognize as what is now called "the Sinner's Prayer."  It's a little ditty wherewith the new believer confesses belief that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior.  You accept him as Savior and you're considered born again from that moment forward.
    I went home and told my parents about it.  They were amazed.  It wasn't explained to me how this was to occur, but there was supposed to be a baptism on the first Sunday of the following month.  My family showed up on the appointed day, but there wasn't a baptism service.  There had been no information given to us.  We didn't know what was expected.  Turns out that they don't baptize children under 12.  I drifted back into adolescence and the usual distractions until high school.
    At age 11, I found one of those Chick Publications tracts on a school bus about the Apocalypse and the Last Judgment.  That started a lifelong interest in prophecy and the end times.  I remember taking it home and looking up the references in Ezekiel and Revelation. 
    When I was in high school, around the age of 15, I started going to Methodist meetings with some friends.  They had a very active youth group and a friendly, low key pastor.  He focused on the joy of faith more than hellfire.  We shared a common interest in music and he often asked me to play guitar in the church.  I had several spiritual experiences in that church which I now understand to have been the influence of the Holy Ghost.  However, there wasn't any instruction on how one was to feel this communion or guidance from the Spirit. When I asked one of my friends why he went to the Methodist Church, he said that it was a good church because it didn't demand much in the way of lifestyle or obedience.  It didn't preach hell fire.  If there wasn't a God, you didn't waste a lot of time or energy there and, if there was a God, you were "covered."
    I had conversations with the minister about the creed that stated we believed in one church, holy, catholic, and apostolic.  Where were our apostles?  Why catholic when we weren't followers of the Pope or any other authority?  My biggest question was what happened to people who died in ignorance of the gospel?  It was conceivable that billions of souls had died before John the Baptist came along preaching repentance and before Jesus appeared and taught the gospel.  What happened to those people who died before any Christian missionaries could ever reach them?  I couldn't imagine that God could be fair and just while condemning those souls to damnation.  The pastor had no good answers.
    The more I studied the doctrines of Calvinism, Methodism, Presbyterianism, and Catholicism, the more my faith failed me.  I came to the determination that, not only was there no true church on the earth, but that God probably didn't exist either.  I eventually drifted off into studying Buddhism and Hinduism, believing that Jesus was an "avatar" or enlightened soul like Buddha, Mohammed, Moses, or other teacher who taught men a way to enlightenment relevant to their culture and time.  I no longer saw God as a personal being.
    After high school, I went through a period of trial, during which I turned to the Bible.  I got more questions than answers from this time of intense study.  What was the connection between the Old Testament patriarchs like Abraham and the New Testament apostles?  How did Moses fit in with those two extremes?  What did it mean when Christ gave the apostles to "bind" or "seal" on earth and in heaven?  What happened to visitations by angels, spiritual gifts, healings, prophecies, and revelation.  I recall having a conversation with my mother contemplating what it would be like if there still apostles and prophets like there were in the New Testament.
    Pardon the length, but I just wanted to paint an accurate picture of the conversion process.  It took years, but when my heart was ready to receive it, the Lord introduced me to the Book of Mormon and the Church.  The converting power of the Book of Mormon touched me.  The astounding promise of Moroni was amazing to me.  I could know for myself.  Nobody ever told me that.  It was always, "just believe" in what some man said--and every man said something different!  All of a sudden, I could know for myself, directly from God.  I did receive an answer regarding the veracity of Joseph Smith's testimony and the divinity of the Book of Mormon.  I recall thinking after my answer came, that I was now finally "a Christian."  I was compelled by the spiritual "evidence" to believe in Jesus and follow him.  I did this without benefit of missionaries.  It was just the power of God.  A new friend had given me the Book of Mormon and the Spirit took care of the rest.  I was baptized shortly afterward.  I served a mission for the Church, married in the temple, and raised my children in he gospel.  I served in many different callings over the years, including a bishopric and two branch presidencies.  It has been 39 years and I'm still on the path, working out my salvation "with fear and trembling," as Paul called it.  I found the answers I always sought in the doctrines of the Restoration.  It hasn't always been easy.  There have been many trials.  I look back on my early spiritual experiences in other churches with gratitude because the Lord used them to prepare my heart.  It has been a great blessing to be a member of the Lord's earthly kingdom.
     
  23. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from prisonchaplain in Conversion stories that go deeper   
    I was a precocious child raised in a believing, but non-affiliated family.  We were Presbyterians in the same way Trump is a Presbyterian (lol).  My first experience with the Bible went like this.  I found a Bible on a shelf in the house and somehow made my way to Exodus 20 and the Ten Commandments.  I learned to read very young (like age three) and thus, I was able to read the text from Exodus with fairly good comprehension, but some of it confused me.  My grandmother found me with the book and we had an interesting conversation about it.
     
    I tell that story to illustrate where I began.  I had an innate curiosity about God and took things at face value.  Shortly after that, an older neighbor kid tried to frighten me telling me that the devil was as tall as a telephone pole, was red, had horns, and a long tail.  It was frightening to think about, but I developed a bit of skepticism about what he told me.  After all, how did he know?
    At the age of seven, my family visited a Baptist Church.  Even 50 years later, I still recall the preacher's booming voice.  It was thrilling and he was a great singer, too.  This particular Sunday was the day they served communion (what we Mormons call the Sacrament).  I watched with interest because this ritual was unfamiliar to me.  I saw people take little crackers and grape juice.  Some of them bowed their heads afterward.  Some wept.  It was fascinating.  I wanted a little cracker when the tray came by so I could see what all the fuss was about.  When the tray came to me, my mom put my hand down and passed the tray on to my father, who then passed it on to someone else.  I whispered to my mother, "Why can't we have any?"  She tersely replied, "Because we're not SAVED!"   I didn't like the sound of that.  I didn't know what it meant, but being saved sounded a whole lot better than not being saved! 
    My next experience came at the age of 10.  A big Baptist church in our area (in the South) used to send school buses through the neighborhoods to pick up kids and take them to church meetings on Sundays.  (I can't imagine the uproar that would occur if Mormon churches did that in the South.  There would be angry mobs with pitchforks and torches!)  Parents used to send their kids to church and stay home while they watched the ball game.  Some friends of mine had been going and I thought I would join them.  If you went ten Sundays, the church would give you a free Bible as a reward.
    I went every Sunday for about a month.  It was a huge church with a large congregation.  The preacher was an exciting orator.  He preached what I now recognize as doctrines taught by Jonathan Edwards, about man's fallen nature.  Edwards described man as being no more important to God than a "scurvy spider" and would think no more of casting us into hellfire than we would of tossing a spider into a campfire.  Today, I think that preaching that sort of doctrine to a ten year-old ought to qualify as child abuse.  He scared me and probably everyone else in the room.  I didn't want to burn in hell forever.  I was only 10!  So one week, they had the usual "altar call" and up I went.
    To LDS folks who may have never been in another denomination's services before, an altar call is done after the sermon where the preacher has scared you to death about hell fire and offered the way to escape: a profession of faith in Jesus.  The choir starts to sing the hymn, "Just As I Am" and the preacher beckons you to come up and pray with him.  On this occasion, I went up.  In a room full of grown-up, as a little 10 year-old, I swallowed hard and stood up.  I walked down that long aisle to the preacher calling to me.  My head was swimming.  I truly wanted to be saved from hell.  He knelt down with me and said a little prayer, which I recognize as what is now called "the Sinner's Prayer."  It's a little ditty wherewith the new believer confesses belief that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior.  You accept him as Savior and you're considered born again from that moment forward.
    I went home and told my parents about it.  They were amazed.  It wasn't explained to me how this was to occur, but there was supposed to be a baptism on the first Sunday of the following month.  My family showed up on the appointed day, but there wasn't a baptism service.  There had been no information given to us.  We didn't know what was expected.  Turns out that they don't baptize children under 12.  I drifted back into adolescence and the usual distractions until high school.
    At age 11, I found one of those Chick Publications tracts on a school bus about the Apocalypse and the Last Judgment.  That started a lifelong interest in prophecy and the end times.  I remember taking it home and looking up the references in Ezekiel and Revelation. 
    When I was in high school, around the age of 15, I started going to Methodist meetings with some friends.  They had a very active youth group and a friendly, low key pastor.  He focused on the joy of faith more than hellfire.  We shared a common interest in music and he often asked me to play guitar in the church.  I had several spiritual experiences in that church which I now understand to have been the influence of the Holy Ghost.  However, there wasn't any instruction on how one was to feel this communion or guidance from the Spirit. When I asked one of my friends why he went to the Methodist Church, he said that it was a good church because it didn't demand much in the way of lifestyle or obedience.  It didn't preach hell fire.  If there wasn't a God, you didn't waste a lot of time or energy there and, if there was a God, you were "covered."
    I had conversations with the minister about the creed that stated we believed in one church, holy, catholic, and apostolic.  Where were our apostles?  Why catholic when we weren't followers of the Pope or any other authority?  My biggest question was what happened to people who died in ignorance of the gospel?  It was conceivable that billions of souls had died before John the Baptist came along preaching repentance and before Jesus appeared and taught the gospel.  What happened to those people who died before any Christian missionaries could ever reach them?  I couldn't imagine that God could be fair and just while condemning those souls to damnation.  The pastor had no good answers.
    The more I studied the doctrines of Calvinism, Methodism, Presbyterianism, and Catholicism, the more my faith failed me.  I came to the determination that, not only was there no true church on the earth, but that God probably didn't exist either.  I eventually drifted off into studying Buddhism and Hinduism, believing that Jesus was an "avatar" or enlightened soul like Buddha, Mohammed, Moses, or other teacher who taught men a way to enlightenment relevant to their culture and time.  I no longer saw God as a personal being.
    After high school, I went through a period of trial, during which I turned to the Bible.  I got more questions than answers from this time of intense study.  What was the connection between the Old Testament patriarchs like Abraham and the New Testament apostles?  How did Moses fit in with those two extremes?  What did it mean when Christ gave the apostles to "bind" or "seal" on earth and in heaven?  What happened to visitations by angels, spiritual gifts, healings, prophecies, and revelation.  I recall having a conversation with my mother contemplating what it would be like if there still apostles and prophets like there were in the New Testament.
    Pardon the length, but I just wanted to paint an accurate picture of the conversion process.  It took years, but when my heart was ready to receive it, the Lord introduced me to the Book of Mormon and the Church.  The converting power of the Book of Mormon touched me.  The astounding promise of Moroni was amazing to me.  I could know for myself.  Nobody ever told me that.  It was always, "just believe" in what some man said--and every man said something different!  All of a sudden, I could know for myself, directly from God.  I did receive an answer regarding the veracity of Joseph Smith's testimony and the divinity of the Book of Mormon.  I recall thinking after my answer came, that I was now finally "a Christian."  I was compelled by the spiritual "evidence" to believe in Jesus and follow him.  I did this without benefit of missionaries.  It was just the power of God.  A new friend had given me the Book of Mormon and the Spirit took care of the rest.  I was baptized shortly afterward.  I served a mission for the Church, married in the temple, and raised my children in he gospel.  I served in many different callings over the years, including a bishopric and two branch presidencies.  It has been 39 years and I'm still on the path, working out my salvation "with fear and trembling," as Paul called it.  I found the answers I always sought in the doctrines of the Restoration.  It hasn't always been easy.  There have been many trials.  I look back on my early spiritual experiences in other churches with gratitude because the Lord used them to prepare my heart.  It has been a great blessing to be a member of the Lord's earthly kingdom.
     
  24. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from zil in Conversion stories that go deeper   
    I was a precocious child raised in a believing, but non-affiliated family.  We were Presbyterians in the same way Trump is a Presbyterian (lol).  My first experience with the Bible went like this.  I found a Bible on a shelf in the house and somehow made my way to Exodus 20 and the Ten Commandments.  I learned to read very young (like age three) and thus, I was able to read the text from Exodus with fairly good comprehension, but some of it confused me.  My grandmother found me with the book and we had an interesting conversation about it.
     
    I tell that story to illustrate where I began.  I had an innate curiosity about God and took things at face value.  Shortly after that, an older neighbor kid tried to frighten me telling me that the devil was as tall as a telephone pole, was red, had horns, and a long tail.  It was frightening to think about, but I developed a bit of skepticism about what he told me.  After all, how did he know?
    At the age of seven, my family visited a Baptist Church.  Even 50 years later, I still recall the preacher's booming voice.  It was thrilling and he was a great singer, too.  This particular Sunday was the day they served communion (what we Mormons call the Sacrament).  I watched with interest because this ritual was unfamiliar to me.  I saw people take little crackers and grape juice.  Some of them bowed their heads afterward.  Some wept.  It was fascinating.  I wanted a little cracker when the tray came by so I could see what all the fuss was about.  When the tray came to me, my mom put my hand down and passed the tray on to my father, who then passed it on to someone else.  I whispered to my mother, "Why can't we have any?"  She tersely replied, "Because we're not SAVED!"   I didn't like the sound of that.  I didn't know what it meant, but being saved sounded a whole lot better than not being saved! 
    My next experience came at the age of 10.  A big Baptist church in our area (in the South) used to send school buses through the neighborhoods to pick up kids and take them to church meetings on Sundays.  (I can't imagine the uproar that would occur if Mormon churches did that in the South.  There would be angry mobs with pitchforks and torches!)  Parents used to send their kids to church and stay home while they watched the ball game.  Some friends of mine had been going and I thought I would join them.  If you went ten Sundays, the church would give you a free Bible as a reward.
    I went every Sunday for about a month.  It was a huge church with a large congregation.  The preacher was an exciting orator.  He preached what I now recognize as doctrines taught by Jonathan Edwards, about man's fallen nature.  Edwards described man as being no more important to God than a "scurvy spider" and would think no more of casting us into hellfire than we would of tossing a spider into a campfire.  Today, I think that preaching that sort of doctrine to a ten year-old ought to qualify as child abuse.  He scared me and probably everyone else in the room.  I didn't want to burn in hell forever.  I was only 10!  So one week, they had the usual "altar call" and up I went.
    To LDS folks who may have never been in another denomination's services before, an altar call is done after the sermon where the preacher has scared you to death about hell fire and offered the way to escape: a profession of faith in Jesus.  The choir starts to sing the hymn, "Just As I Am" and the preacher beckons you to come up and pray with him.  On this occasion, I went up.  In a room full of grown-up, as a little 10 year-old, I swallowed hard and stood up.  I walked down that long aisle to the preacher calling to me.  My head was swimming.  I truly wanted to be saved from hell.  He knelt down with me and said a little prayer, which I recognize as what is now called "the Sinner's Prayer."  It's a little ditty wherewith the new believer confesses belief that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior.  You accept him as Savior and you're considered born again from that moment forward.
    I went home and told my parents about it.  They were amazed.  It wasn't explained to me how this was to occur, but there was supposed to be a baptism on the first Sunday of the following month.  My family showed up on the appointed day, but there wasn't a baptism service.  There had been no information given to us.  We didn't know what was expected.  Turns out that they don't baptize children under 12.  I drifted back into adolescence and the usual distractions until high school.
    At age 11, I found one of those Chick Publications tracts on a school bus about the Apocalypse and the Last Judgment.  That started a lifelong interest in prophecy and the end times.  I remember taking it home and looking up the references in Ezekiel and Revelation. 
    When I was in high school, around the age of 15, I started going to Methodist meetings with some friends.  They had a very active youth group and a friendly, low key pastor.  He focused on the joy of faith more than hellfire.  We shared a common interest in music and he often asked me to play guitar in the church.  I had several spiritual experiences in that church which I now understand to have been the influence of the Holy Ghost.  However, there wasn't any instruction on how one was to feel this communion or guidance from the Spirit. When I asked one of my friends why he went to the Methodist Church, he said that it was a good church because it didn't demand much in the way of lifestyle or obedience.  It didn't preach hell fire.  If there wasn't a God, you didn't waste a lot of time or energy there and, if there was a God, you were "covered."
    I had conversations with the minister about the creed that stated we believed in one church, holy, catholic, and apostolic.  Where were our apostles?  Why catholic when we weren't followers of the Pope or any other authority?  My biggest question was what happened to people who died in ignorance of the gospel?  It was conceivable that billions of souls had died before John the Baptist came along preaching repentance and before Jesus appeared and taught the gospel.  What happened to those people who died before any Christian missionaries could ever reach them?  I couldn't imagine that God could be fair and just while condemning those souls to damnation.  The pastor had no good answers.
    The more I studied the doctrines of Calvinism, Methodism, Presbyterianism, and Catholicism, the more my faith failed me.  I came to the determination that, not only was there no true church on the earth, but that God probably didn't exist either.  I eventually drifted off into studying Buddhism and Hinduism, believing that Jesus was an "avatar" or enlightened soul like Buddha, Mohammed, Moses, or other teacher who taught men a way to enlightenment relevant to their culture and time.  I no longer saw God as a personal being.
    After high school, I went through a period of trial, during which I turned to the Bible.  I got more questions than answers from this time of intense study.  What was the connection between the Old Testament patriarchs like Abraham and the New Testament apostles?  How did Moses fit in with those two extremes?  What did it mean when Christ gave the apostles to "bind" or "seal" on earth and in heaven?  What happened to visitations by angels, spiritual gifts, healings, prophecies, and revelation.  I recall having a conversation with my mother contemplating what it would be like if there still apostles and prophets like there were in the New Testament.
    Pardon the length, but I just wanted to paint an accurate picture of the conversion process.  It took years, but when my heart was ready to receive it, the Lord introduced me to the Book of Mormon and the Church.  The converting power of the Book of Mormon touched me.  The astounding promise of Moroni was amazing to me.  I could know for myself.  Nobody ever told me that.  It was always, "just believe" in what some man said--and every man said something different!  All of a sudden, I could know for myself, directly from God.  I did receive an answer regarding the veracity of Joseph Smith's testimony and the divinity of the Book of Mormon.  I recall thinking after my answer came, that I was now finally "a Christian."  I was compelled by the spiritual "evidence" to believe in Jesus and follow him.  I did this without benefit of missionaries.  It was just the power of God.  A new friend had given me the Book of Mormon and the Spirit took care of the rest.  I was baptized shortly afterward.  I served a mission for the Church, married in the temple, and raised my children in he gospel.  I served in many different callings over the years, including a bishopric and two branch presidencies.  It has been 39 years and I'm still on the path, working out my salvation "with fear and trembling," as Paul called it.  I found the answers I always sought in the doctrines of the Restoration.  It hasn't always been easy.  There have been many trials.  I look back on my early spiritual experiences in other churches with gratitude because the Lord used them to prepare my heart.  It has been a great blessing to be a member of the Lord's earthly kingdom.
     
  25. Like
    spamlds got a reaction from Windseeker in a thought   
    In the centuries following the Great Apostasy, a false Gnostic teaching crept into Christianity that has been called the "Serpent Seed" doctrine. The doctrine taught that "Original Sin" as Catholics and Protestants refer to Adam and Eve's transgression, was sexual intercourse.  The eating of the forbidden fruit is a metaphor for sexual relations.  The "Serpent Seed" version of it goes so far as to say that Eve had intercourse with Satan and then seduced Adam.  Latter-day Saints have never taught such a doctrine.  
    Wikipedia gives some further info:
    The doctrine has been taught by fringe Christian movements even into the present day.  It has been used to justify racism, bigotry, and oppression of women.  One variation of the doctrine states that Cain was the offspring of Satan and that his seed is still present on the earth.  The racist "Christian Identity" movement still teaches this.  
    Catholics and Protestants avoid going into speculations on what "Original Sin" was, but because of the biblical passages mentioned earlier in the thread, there is a presumption that the Fall was Eve's fault.  The LDS understanding is far more generous to Eve, who is celebrated as Adam's eternal companion, help-mate, and forms a more liberal notion of the roles of men and women as equal partners in marriage.  We understand that we wouldn't be here unless they made the conscious choices they did.  We are blessed because of their transgression and our eyes are opened to the gift of redemption.