JudoMinja

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Posts posted by JudoMinja

  1. I understand your "event" isn't the whole story- I'm just trying to use it as a building point since it was one of the turning points in your crisis of faith. I know you wouldn't be considering removing your name from the records if you hadn't already given this a lot of thought and felt certain about your belief- or lack thereof. I'm just hoping that my thoughts might facilitate discussion and maybe bring up things you may not have considered yet. Understand- I'm speaking as someone who believes whole-heartedly in the "LDS God", and my belief comes from overcoming my own crisis of faith and my devoted study as I've tried to gain a deeper, more concrete understanding of the gospel. I'm trying to build on knowledge that should be familiar to you because of your background with the church, but also to throw off many of the misconceptions that can come from a "surface" understanding and lead people astray. The more you respond to my thoughts, the more I know if I'm going the right direction or just covering things you've already considered.

    As to your thoughts about other faiths- Remember that with our missionary efforts we strive to have people keep the good they already have and merely build upon it with the knowledge we share with them. People don't have to be LDS to be blessed. They don't have to be LDS to have faith. There is truth all around us and many religions have varying portions of truth. Even those who are not religious, like atheists or scientists (not that all scientists aren't religious- just pointing out another different line of thinking) are privy to portions of truth that can help guide and direct them in their lives. And we are all given the "spirit of Christ" which helps us in dissecting truths from falsehoods.

    It is my belief, however, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the FULLNESS of the Truth. AND that there is still more yet to be revealed to us that we do not know. This knowledge and spiritual understanding, however, is both simple and complex. It has the potential to become confused because of its simplicity and our tendancy to complicate it where it needn't be, as well as to be entirely misunderstood because of its complexity. There are many many details which come together to make the whole, and it is in those details that we can often find ourselves tripping over misinformation the adversary likes to squeeze in. His lies can even find themselves embedded in the culture of the church and misrepresented as doctrine- and so he is able to lead even the "elect" astray with his cunning devices.

    I only hope that you are convinced it is not yet time to give up on His church. I think it is time for you to re-examine the areas of the gospel you are struggling to understand- like faith, agency, mortality, adversity, and the withdrawal of His presence. I think you can still find the answers, especially within the Book of Mormon, because I truly believe that one can draw nearer to God through that book than any other. Don't just read the scriptures- study them. Go into them looking for the answers to your questions and doubts. Take the topics that are troubling you and search them out, along with anecdotal material from manuals, talks, ensign articles, etc. And of course- continue to act and serve those around you, because you certainly cannot come to understand how His blessings and interactions with His children work if you are not seeking such interaction and striving to aid His hand.

  2. Three main points here-

    1. The way your bishop handled your food help was not, from what I understand, the correct way to go about it, and whatever hurt you garnered from that experience, I think, falls on his shoulders and not Gods. I was receiving help from the bishop's storehouse while I was with my now-ex, and I've also done quite a bit of volunteering helping at the storehouse. My experience with it is not perfect, but here's my understanding of what should have happened: Your bishop should have been meeting with you regularly not just to fill food orders but to discuss your plans and your budget. He should have been giving you counsel and suggestions, checking up on your efforts to get another job, etc. AND, he should have been asking you to perform some kind of service in return for the help you were receiving. Yes, it is meant to be temporary- but he shouldn't have just cut you off like that. I'm sorry you went through that.

    2. I can most definitely empathize with the job situation, and I'm sure many others who've faced the hardships of the shifting economy can also. The job I have now is only minimum wage and just barely enough for me to get by living in a tiny cheap apartment, getting food stamps and medicaid, and paying my parents for their car and having them sometimes have to grace me a payment so I can afford things like clothes or shoes. I've gone through the effort of finishing my schooling and am constantly putting out applications to everything I can find that will provide better and that I'm qualified to do- even if it isn't the kind of job I'd prefer, and I keep hitting brick walls. So, I go through temporary bouts of depression and wondering if my education is really worth it or how I'm supposed to work my way out of my little financial black hole, but then I get right back up and keep on trying and keep looking for other ways I can improve my chances of getting an interview or broadening my horizons for other possible jobs. And I know too that even if I never get another job, the one I have is at least good enough for me to get by, even if I'll never get ahead.

    3. I think it is quite possible God has blessed you and you've just overlooked those blessings because they weren't what you expected, or they were so small and trivial that they could have been contributed to something or someone other than God. From Vort's comment- the only premise of the four he listed that was true was the first one. "If I have sufficient faith, God will bless me." The rest builds off that one point, but is all false, because the blessings He gives us aren't going to always be directly correlated to our pain or even neccesarily recognizable as blessings. You mentioned having a substitute job and your wife working- could it be that those jobs were blessings in your time of need? There are also blessings of comfort, health, strength to endure, and other very subtle things that can easily be overlooked.

    Those miracle stories about the person who landed the perfect job at the perfect moment or had their home miraculously saved from foreclosure, or somehow ended up with money that tided them over but seemed to come from nowhere- those are Not the norm. If we go about our lives expecting those kinds of miracles we are going to be disappointed, because that's not normally the way God works. For every story like that there are thousands of others like yours where God did not intervene. Like the tragedy of 9/11- there were many stories shared about people who should have been there during the attack, but through some small act or twist of fate they were not- yet those stories were few compared to the number of people who lost their lives, for whom God did not intervene. Yes, faith requires action and trust, but it also requires trusting in what is true and not a false premise. So what is true? How will God help you?

    Remember, his purpose is your spiritual growth. This requires letting go of the things that shift around you and cannot be trusted to remain constant- like jobs, homes, friendships, financial security etc. All those things can disappear in the blink of an eye. The only constant is the Savior- "remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall." (Helaman 5:12)

    There is no promise that you will not lose your job, your health, your home. Yet we are promised that our lives will not be lost to despair if we remain solid on the foundation of our Savior. Even in poverty, stricken with cancer, or any number of other possible hardships that could potentially endure for the rest of your life, you can find peace. I think your understanding of this has been faulty, and this is why you now find yourself doubting God. Instead- you should seek to correct your understanding of Him through more fervent study of the scriptures and words of the prophets. You can have a close relationship with Him and rebuild your faith in Him as you strive to recognize HOW he blesses you and learn to let go of those things that can be so easily taken away.

  3. I've been thinking about this some more and reread the posts. I'd like to approach this again from a different direction. I'm going to focus on your question "Why would God (the LDS God) do this or allow this to happen?" We've discussed the need to not interfere with others agency and the "trial of faith", but I think we need to step even further back and evaluate God's plan and purpose.

    You know the Plan of Salvation, but let's take a moment to really delve into it as it pertains to mortality. Everything we face in mortality has the ultimate purpose of our spiritual growth. His plan was devised so that we can be perfected, and just as the physical perfection of our bodies requires struggle- diet, exercise, etc- so our spiritual perfection requires struggle. And neither can be accomplished on your own. Someone bench-pressing, for example, needs a spotter. The one doing the lifting should continue to lift until the strain is so intense that they cannot complete the last repetition, and the spotter has to help put the bar back in place. You are trying to complete your last repetition without a spotter.

    You've been feeling as though your spotter has pulled back, refusing to help you and leaving you to get crushed under a weight you can't handle. Hence your question- "Why would God do this?" This is where many would say the fault must lie somewhere with you, because like you've stated, God just wouldn't do that to someone. He never leaves us with or gives us burdens we cannot bear, right? But it's not quite that simple- The scriptures tell us that he has "prepared a way" that we may be "able" to bear our burdens. Specifically, the scripture most think of when referencing this is 1 Corinthians 10:13 "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it". And what is that way? What is that escape?

    One thing that has been prepared is the organization of the church. Part of our baptismal covenant is to "bear one another's burdens, that they may be light". Turning away from the church in your time of need is to refuse the help God has prepared for you. Because the people of the church are imperfect, they don't always fulfill their baptismal covenant with ease, they don't always respond to the still-small promptings of the spirit to be there for others, because their hearts are not always in tune enough to hear those promptings or to understand them. And there are many who are struggling so much with their own personal trials that they feel they have no energy to reach out and help others in the church. This attitude, however, is counterproductive. No matter how deep and troubling ones personal trials, we should all be seeking to help on another.

    Our baptismal covenant was not to bear the burdens of the weak only when we are strong. It was to "bear one another's burdens". If we all reach out to one another and share the burdens equally, that is when they are "made light". I've been in many wards, and I've seen some where the members were so open and helpful that I understand what God intended with His organization of the church. And I've seen others that are struggling so much with people unwilling to do their part that those striving to bear the burdens of their fellows together become overwhelmed. This won't be made better if you pull away- rather you should "thrust in your sickle" and do what you can to improve the situation in your ward.

    Nothing we face was intended to be handled alone. It requires humility to accept the help of others and compassion and trust to reach out to help others when we are struggling ourselves. These are all qualities (humility, compassion, and trust) which we need to build within ourselves if we are to be perfected spiritually. Jesus Christ is there to turn our weaknesses into strengths through His grace, and His grace is sufficient for all those who humble themselves before Him. (Ether 12:27) It is when we do this and exercise faith in Him that our weaknesses become strong.

    You do not have to feel faith. Faith is an action. If you pray for rain in a drought, that is not faith. Faith is going out and planting your fields- because you must trust that the rain is going to come. You have been praying, but have you been doing? Perhaps you feel as though your faith is gone and you have failed your trial because you have not truly been exercising faith. What actions have you taken to show trust that the Lord will do His part to improve your situation (provide the rain), after you've done your part of planting the fields? And even if your situation does not improve, how has your experience made it possible for you to feel more compassion for others and build other Christ-like qualities within yourself?

    Why would God leave anyone to bear something on their own? Why would He thrust trials upon anyone which seem so impossible to bear? Why has He designed mortality to be so hard for everyone? Because He does not expect us to "overcome". He does not expect us to be successful- at least not in the way the world sees success. Mortality was designed as a place for us to exercise our spirits, an exercise that cannot be completed alone. We have to rely on one another and on the atonement to be made whole. Just as a redwood tree would never be able to stand alone- their roots are too shallow to bear their size and they intertwine with the roots of other redwoods so they can stand together, neither can we. Yet together, we can be a mighty and inspiring forest. Where you are weak, others are strong- and where you are strong, others are weak.

    Humility, compassion, faith- these are the qualities God seeks to build in you and the "why" behind your trials. Everything He does or doesn't do is designed to bring out those qualities and facilitate the perfection of your spirit. There are many who face worldly trials that will never go away, but they can still be victorious as they humbly seek the help of others, reach out with compassion to offer their own help, and exercise faith through action and trust. Even if they never get where they would like to be in mortality, they will realize that God's purpose for their life was achieved.

  4. Thanks for your comments. I agree with you.

    I want to clarify that I was talking about people who are not the victims and not the witness to a crime etc. as well as not talking about those who have been employed to do a certain job to carry out the law. I am more talking about the result of "fighting for justice" that puts in a person's heart the desire that a certain person "pays" for their crime right now. Like the stirring up of that emotion by watching the evening news. I think that thought of "fight for justice" may be a subtle tool of Satan to stir up contention and hatred and even fear. I wish people wouldn't fall into that trap. Then Satan wins twice, the perpetrator and the fallout of hatred that follows.

    I think what you are describing here is something I've seen many times that tends to make me cringe and feel sick to my stomach. (It was brought up in another thread on here recently, but I can't remember which one right now.) That is the attitude people have when they seek to dish out what others "deserve". I always cringe when I hear phrases like "I hope he gets what he deserves" or "Good for them. They deserved it." etc.

    This seems to go pretty much hand-in-hand with those who become so bent on seeing someone "pay" for their crime/action/slight/sin. The only word I can think of that comes close to summing up this attitude/feeling is "vengeful". I can't stand it when I hear or see someone being vengeful. I think those with this attitude get so caught up in the hurts and the wrongs that they fail to recognize the person responsible for the damage as a person anymore.

    Vengence doesn't make anything better. Satan certainly does win twice when people become vengeful, because he's captured not only the perpetrator but the individuals now overcome with a vengeful spirit. I think it may even be harder for those being vengeful than it would be for the original wrong-doer to overcome and repent of their sin, as it is something that completely sickens their spirit.

  5. If I had been unable to get "no visitation", I would have fought for it and would have taken the criminal matters further to make sure I got it, as I do not feel my son would have been safe with the ex. As I said, where safety is concerned, I think it is right to seek justice. That is exactly the kind of situation the justice system is for. If it is working properly, it should result in the protection of the victims. I think that justice can provide a much needed sense of security for those who are fearful of further harm, and it certainly protects individuals from repeat offenses.

    Healing from the damage that caused one to need to seek out that justice though, is separate. Maybe for some seeing that justice done helps them heal, but I personally don't see how it would. If I'd had to turn my divorce into a battle in order to have the sense of safety I now have for myself and my son, I think it would have only dug my emotional wounds deeper and possibly spread the damage to family members that got caught up in the battle- and seeing justice served at the end of it wouldn't have made that any better.

    Perhaps my distinction is a minute one, but it is an important one to me. There are cases where justice is important and should be sought out, even if it does result in a "fight" or "battle" in order to get it. But the purpose of that fight should be to find safety and protection for victims and/or potential future victims, not healing.

  6. I agree with you that God will balance out the justice and mercy in the end, however in this life when justice is not served to perps, I think it can be very hard for the survivor. You mentioned killing. I am thinking rape. A woman is raped, seeks justice, and doesn't find any, and the rapist is set free. This is where the need for justice becomes blurred. The individual sought the justice a person truly deserves but they are set free.

    Thus, the pain and emotional trauma doesn't have any reconciliation in this life. Some of these women continue to live in fear, they sometimes result in suicides, and other times these individuals overcome.

    I know not all who've been victimized by something like this will think along the same lines as myself, but I really don't see how seeking justice for the one responsible helps with the victim's healing process. It may give you peace-of-mind that they aren't going to come after you or someone else again, but the healing from the emotional trauma is an entirely separate issue, and I think that those bent on finding justice for their attacker are probably a bit slower to heal than those able to let it go.

    After I left my ex, for example, I never did anything to seek legal ramifications for his actions, and I think that if I had it only would have drawn out my healing process and made it take longer. I did what I had to do to make sure my son and I would be safe- made sure he had no visitation in the divorce paperwork- but I never charged him criminally with abuse and I never took it up with his parole officer. I also never sought to make him pay for all the debts he accrued in my name while we were together and currently don't hound him for child-support. It is easier, safer, and better for me to just cut him out of my life and have absolutely no contact, and I don't see how seeking justice would have made things any better for myself, him, or anyone else.

    This easily could have turned into one of those "justice battles" with my family pitted against his family and everyone becoming contentious and bitter over the whole thing, but I saw no benefit in letting that happen and knew things would only get ugly all around. And if justice had been served in the end, I don't think I would have felt any feelings of satisfaction or healing. Just empty and spent, and probably full of regret for all the hurt the matter would have brought out.

    If I was fearful that he'd seek me out to cause me more harm, certainly I would have taken it to the courts, expecting them to help me put him behind bars so I wouldn't have to worry about myself, my son, or others getting hurt. I think that in cases of rape where the victim is fearful of another attack or that the rapist will go on to rape someone else, they should definitely try to find justice- but not so much for healing as for safety. Finding justice won't help you heal. It's finding forgiveness that does that. Justice in cases where someone is going to continue being a threat to others WILL help victims in that they won't have to be fearful anymore, but it won't heal them.

  7. So it is the "fighting" more than the "serving" that seems off to you? I agree with you there. I think that fighting for justice to be served is far too contentious. The only time I see fighting for anything as really appropriate, is when individuals are fighting to protect and defend lives and/or freedoms. Sometimes this means fighting to see justice served- but in a very different manner than what you're describing. I see no reason for people to quarrel over the results of cold cases and think that they hurt their own souls doing so.

  8. I believe that our justice system, when utilized properly, serves a very important purpose. There was, afterall, a system of judges established in the Book of Mormon, and we see several areas in scripture where serious crimes were dealt with very judicously.

    Temporal consequences for our temporal decisions are an important part of the learning process of this life. There are many decisions people make which will not have any immediate consequences on their lives, but on other people's lives- and we need a justice system to at least attempt to balance things out and teach the individual that their decisions do indeed have adverse consequences. This system also helps protect people who would become victims of further rash and terrible decisions.

    Of course, there are many small things that shouldn't really need to be handled by the justice system and we could get along just fine if people were more forgiving and merciful instead of "seeking justice" for every petty hurt or crime. I think many things get brought before the courts that could have been settled between individuals if everyone had just been willing to be understanding and forgiving.

    This also brings to mind something my father would always tell us- though I don't know if there's anything doctrinal on it: We only face "justice" for our actions once. God isn't going to reap His justice if we've already served it temporally. And temporal justice is more leanient than His FINAL justice- so it's better to face it here and get it over with. ;) Of course- as I said- that's just an anecdote from my father, and I don't know if that's really the way it works. I'm sure it's partially correct, but I think more accurate is that God's justice is perfect, as is His mercy. So, there's no need for Him to exact more justice from someone who already suffered the consequences for their actions, and if they are repentant and utilize the atonement, such falls on the Savior's shoulders instead of their own.

    I think it is important for us to maintain an accurate temporal justice system that works, as best we can manage, in immitation of God's perfect justice system. Likewise, we should strive to immitate His perfect mercy. And of course, of us it is required to forgive all men.

  9. It sounds like you are suffering from agoraphobia, which is considered a panic disorder that can be triggered by other things such as post traumatic stress and/or social anxiety. You can take the Panic and Agoraphbia Scale Questionnaire online to determine the severity of your symptoms and decide whether you should seek professional help with it.

    It could also help to attend your ward's 12-step meetings. This is geared toward helping people with addictions, but I personally found it helpful when I was going through post traumatic stress, as it was a calm setting with a small group, and we went very in-depth on topics centered around the atonement and seeking Christ's helping hand. I believe that you will be able to experience a "mental" healing as you work to gain a deeper understanding of your relationship with Christ, and also seek professional help if needed.

  10. One of my favorite talks discussing this topic is John Bytheway's "Five Scriptures That Will Help You Get Through Almost Anything". You can read it here.

    One of the most revealing portions of that talk comes up in a question as to why God would put Abraham through such a test as requiring him to sacrifice his son. He knew Abraham would live up to the test. He knew He was going to tell him to stop and provide another sacrifice in Issac's stead. So why do it? Because "Abraham needed to learn something about Abraham."

    "God already knows what we’re made of, but perhaps He wants us to learn what we’re made of. I think we would all agree that we learn more from our tough times than from our easy times."

    This life is full of hard times and bad things. The world is a place of opposition- with both righteousness and wickedness, good and bad. Sometimes, the bad came seem overwhelming and leave us wondering if there really is any good. There is a purpose behind that opposition. We know that mortality is a testing and proving ground- not for God to learn about us, as He already knows all, but for us to learn about ourselves. Just as Abraham needed to learn something about Abraham- Judo needs to learn something about Judo, shyguy needs to learn something about shyguy, Dravin needs to learn something about Dravin, and so on and so forth.

    And as we learn about ourselves we are given the opportunity to let our experiences shape us. "And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them." (Ether 12:27)

    As we discover our weaknesses, we can choose to face them on our own, or we can humbly recognize our need for help, turn to the Savior, and have our weaknesses turned into strengths. The goal of this life is not to avoid bad things, but to have those bad things reveal our character and humble us so that we will turn to the Savior. Pain is our teacher, suffering our therapist. Instead of asking "Why me?" when we face hardships, we should be asking- "What can this teach me about myself?" and "How can I turn this into something better?"

  11. It is sounding to me like the main thing you are upset about is the attire, blatantly offensive tattoos, and attitudes of some of the fellow members of your ward. You seem to think they should not have been allowed to be baptised because of these things. Yet these are not qualities considered during a baptismal interview. Here are the interview questions:

    1. Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?

    2. Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God? What does this mean to you?

    3. What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions?

    4. Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have you ever participated in an abortion? a homosexual relationship?

    5. You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes living gospel standards. What do you understand of the following standards? Are you willing to obey them?

    a. The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal marriage between a man and a woman.

    b. The law of tithing.

    c. The Word of Wisdom.

    d. The Sabbath day, including partaking of the sacrament weekly and rendering service to fellow members.

    6. When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it?

    While these questions stipulate the need for repentance, keeping the law of chastity, and honoring the Sabbath day, NOWHERE does it say they have to keep tattoos covered or dress a particular way. And attitude changes come with time. There are plenty of people who attend church services with attitudes that rub me the wrong way, but it's important to remember that they have their own imperfections to work on and I have mine. Let's not get stuck on the mote in the eyes of our brothers and sisters when there is a beam we need to remove from our own.

    There are higher standards we try to maintain. These standards are outlined in the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet and discussed occasionally at church meetings. Yet it is up to every individual to take it upon themselves to follow those standards, and determine whether they are going to uphold and live them to their fullest extent or toe the line and make as little of a change to their lives as possible. Getting angry and judgmental about their failure to make full use of the atonement and rid themselves of their crutches does nothing to help them and certainly doesn't help yourself.

    Yes, the Lord said "go and sin no more". Yes, these people should make a greater effort to improve themselves. But their position with the Lord is between them and the Lord- not YOU and the Lord. Their position with the church is between them and their Bishop- not YOU and their Bishop. I don't think that people here are trying to be uncaring or to shrug off what people are failing to do- we are just trying to point out that YOUR faith shouldn't hinge on how other members choose to attend their church services.

    There is a time and a place for accepting people with open arms despite all their faults, and there is a time ad place for upholding righteous standards to prevent holy places from being sullied. Church is a place for acceptance- for welcoming and teaching all who are willing to enter and learn. The temple is the place where we do not permit those unworthy to enter.

    As for subjecting children to unrighteous influences- I hope that I can teach my child to use his own brain and listen to the influence of the spirit in making decisions for himself, despite any and all outside influences that try to lead him astray. I hope he recognizes when those around him fail to uphold the standards and that he strives to set an example. I hope that he learns to consider all things that people tell him with thought and prayer, to determine for himself if it is right or misled. The people in the church are not perfect, but we are all striving to reach the same goal. It is our job to bring ourselves and others to the Savior so that we can all work out our salvation together- not to cast out sinners or those slow to learn.

  12. The standards of the church haven't changed. All new members go through the same baptismal interview and are asked the same questions. While it is possible some lie their way through the interview, I think it is more likely that they are merely struggling to keep their baptismal covenant. The individuals that seem to stand out to you are likely people who have a strong desire to repent and do better, but who have difficult habits to break or are subjected to situations and/or influences that make it hard for them to keep their testimonies strong.

    There does need to be a balance between accepting people "as they are" and expecting them to improve. We do not want to drive people away from the gospel, and have been told at several points in the scriptures that we should continue to allow even those who are struggling through serious repentance or even unwilling to go through the repentance process to come and worship with us. We want them to feel the love and welcoming embrace of the Savior as they come to our meetings.

    At the same time, the standards and expectations we hold ourselves to need to be made clear. This is mostly handled in the background, by those leaders who sit in interviews with these individuals and determine whether or not they should be partaking of the sacrament, serving in callings, or attending the temple. The blessings of the sacrament and temple attendance are limited to those living worthily, while church attendance is meant to be open to all those who desire to come.

  13. No offense taken. That kind of outlook though is exactly the kind I'm speaking of that makes me feel squemish. I consider the actions you describe just as atrocious as you do, and they certainly don't sit right with me either. But looking at others like nothing more than animals, no matter what they've done, is something that bothers me just as much.

  14. I know I can't relate entirely to your situation, since- as you've said- I have seen God work in His small ways to help me, while you still haven't seen His help in yours. However, I was hoping my story would point out that sometimes the help fails to come because we keep looking for it in the wrong place. Help in my situation didn't come until I gave up on trying to make the relationship work and asked for help getting away. That wasn't what I wanted. I wanted my husband to stop being violent and work with me toward temple worthiness. But what I wanted wasn't possible without said husband's cooperation- and God was not about to interfere with his agency to make it happen for me. Perhaps you are asking for something that God doesn't intend you to have, and you won't get His help until you give up on it and ask for something else.

    I hold on to the experience I had to strengthen my faith now, because I haven't felt God's hand in my life anymore since. I'd love to remarry someone who will be a good husband and father so that I can have more children and raise a family. I'd love to put my education to use at a job that pays better than minimum wage. Yet, despite all my efforts, I have so far been denied both those desires around every bend. Once again, I'm left wondering if maybe the things I'm striving for are things God doesn't intend for me to have. Perhaps, I won't see his hand in my life again until I give up on those desires and seek something else.

    However, I know that He does help us through the hands of others who are willing to listen to His promptings and follow through on their inspirations. I understand that it is hard for you to believe and see that for yourself, since you haven't had any personal experiences to verify that faith, and I know that it can be very hard to hold on to such faith when so many people around us who profess to believe and be his disciples fail to listen and act on the directions of the Holy Spirit. I'm guilty of such failing myself, but I'm working on trying to focus outside myself and be the answer to other people's prayers. I hold onto the hope that someday I'll see His miracles at work again, but until then, I need to just keep trudging on doing what I know to be right.

  15. Good advice, and I do spend a fair amount of time helping and serving others - especially since I have some time on my hands while unemployed. I do find pleasure in serving others and doing good. But being unemployed (and pretty much unemployable) is probably not the best way for God to show his love for me. I get it already, I failed the faith test. Hence it's easier to believe in the God I believe in as opposed to one you believe in. The one you believe in wouldn't do this.

    On the contrary. I don't know exactly what's happened to you and don't expect you to share the details, but the God I believe in allows terrible things to happen so that our agency can be preserved. He also does not always provide obvious miracles in response to suffering in order to lighten our burdens. More often, He does His work through very small acts that may not even be recognized as miraculous.

    Let me share a little personal experience with you. I felt God withdraw from my life when I entered a very abusive relationship. I was not the most faithful at the time, and I certainly wasn't at my best spiritually, but my husband and I both wanted to better ourselves, repent of our shortcomings, and see our relationship grow into something wonderful. Neither of us were employed- him due to a back injury and me due to a rather trying pregnancy and his unwillingness to let me leave the home. We were relying on our bishop's storehouse for food and met with our bishop to discuss our struggles and work on repentance.

    I felt certain that my husband and I could overcome our failings, that he could become a worthy priesthood holder, that we could go to the temple, and that we could provide for ourselves and our little one on the way. However, my husband was far too troubled by the abuse he'd experienced as a child and far too violent for me to remain safe in our relationship. There were several occassions where his actions could have killed me, and I sometimes wished they had. I stayed true to our relationship, praying fervently for my husband's heart to be softened, until the time came that he turned his violent hand on our infant, and my faith shattered.

    I secretly sent a message to an old friend asking for advice. The only way I could get the message to her without my husband reading it was to send it to her myspace account, which she hadn't checked in a couple years. But the day after I sent it, she felt she should check her account. She saw my message and spoke with my mom, who gave her the money she would have sent me to pay our bills that month so that she could drive all the way across the states to get me. I didn't even know she was on her way when I felt I needed to flee the situation- and an opportunity presented itself when my husband had to go to an appointment. I took our baby and what I could carry to some college friends nearby who didn't even know what had been going on but were willing to put me up until I could find out what to do, and then my childhood friend on the way from home called to say she was in town and wanted to know where to get me.

    All this came together to help me in a most miraculous way, but it was small. It was not the miracle I'd been looking for. My now ex-husband's heart has still not been softened and he is not involved in my life or our child's. Even with God's hand helping me out of that situation, I have still had quite the struggle finishing school and finding adequate work as a single parent. Sometimes, I still feel like God is staying His hand fom my life when there are areas He could be helping.

    God is there. He cares. He loves you. You will find His miracles at work in your life with time and patience and as you look in the right places. He won't always help the way you want Him to. He won't make things easy. But He will make it possible for you to bear your burdens.

  16. Healing comes with time. How much time varies with every individual case, but one thing that can help speed recovery is seeking to help others. It may seem contradictory to find healing through serving others instead of others serving you, but it works. Perhaps God's hand has been involved in your life, and you just can't see it through your pain. He doesn't always help us the way we would like Him to. And sometimes the help He would give us is hindered, because He works through the hands of others who may ignore the promptings He gives them.

  17. Only one was a member of the church (future stake president, actually), and he's dead. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

    Ah, well the opportunity to accept the gospel should still be open to the others involved, but the fact that there's no way for us to be certain of the details and how things will pan out when the time comes still stands. However, it's starting to sound like the "intervention" you are looking for is for God dole out his justice on these people... While there are times that God does strike people down, this kind of judgment is pretty rare, and I believe any bitterness, resentment, and unforgiving feelings you are harboring could well be the very reason you haven't felt God's presence returning to you.

  18. I had this discussion with my home teacher (now a counselor in the stake presidency) at the time when I was still active. We'd love to think that. He said essentially the same thing you just said. So, because they wronged me in this life, because of my witness against them in the next life (or on judgement day or whenever) they will not be afforded the opportunity to hear the gospel, be baptised and receive their temple blessing by proxy, and enter the clestial kingdom? Is that really what the church teaches?

    The opportunity to hear the gospel and accept it in spirit prison is for those who never had the chance in this life. From what you've said, I believe the people who wronged you were members of the church. They've already had their chance, and they've used it poorly. This is what God's justice is for. Exactly how that justice gets doled out is up to Him, but your witness will be one of the things taken into consideration. So, there's no way to know exactly where the person will end up, but since both God's mercy and justice are perfect, we can trust that they will end up wherever is best.

  19. A failure to act does not necessarily mean one is uncaring. Part of our mortality includes dealing with the consequences of our own actions and the actions of others. Many times God will not interfere so that his final judgment can truly be just. I would suggest getting and listening to John Bytheway's "5 scriptures that will help you get through almost anything". It is an excellent talk, one point of which particularly stands out to me given your description of your struggle-

    In this portion of the talk, he focuses on the story of Alma and Amulek as they witnessed the women and children of the faithful being thrown to the fire. And Alma said to Amulek- "The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day." (Alma 14:11)

    Sometimes, God allows wicked and terrible things to happen and does not intervene, because intervention would thwart our agency. While whatever you've gone through will possibly never be made right in this life, you will stand as a witness against those who acted wrongly against you come judgment day. And because of your witness, God's judgments will be truly just.

    It is a small comfort when we face hardships to know that we may never see things get better during mortality, but it is possible to see that God really is there, He really does care, and He really does love you. I hope that you will continue to exercise faith, even though you don't feel it, because I know that with continued prayers and serious study of the scriptures, you can come to understand that God does love you and care about what you are going through.

  20. What about the Taliban gunmen who stopped the bus and then entered the bus and called out the name of the 14 year old Pakistani girl and then gunned her down, just because she felt that all women should have the chance to better themselves and have an education.

    A 14 year old girl who had the courage and hope that she and other women would someday see that come to fruition, and so she spoke out about it.

    Would it turn your stomach to have these animals hunted down and taken off of the face of the earth so that innocent 14 year old girls would not have to worry about such brutality in the future? Or should we just let them have a pass and let God deal with them in the future.

    Whatever you think the high ground is, it does at least for now seem to be in our hands, after all isn't that what we're over there for? Even though it is in Pakistan, hopefully the Pakistani government would try to hunt these men down, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

    Let us not forget that these same animals that shot this 14 year old girl also said that they would try to hunt her down again once she heals from her wounds -- if she ever does survive at all.

    I believe you misunderstood me. I am not against the death penalty. I am not against violent acts done for the sake of protecting and defending others. There are situations where we must act for the betterment of others, as can be seen in scriptural examples like Nephi being instructed to kill Laban, or in Captain Moroni killing the kingsmen who refused to take up the pledge to protect the liberties of the people.

    The part that makes my stomach turn is when people dish out violence because they think someone deserves it. If the people hunting down the Taliban were bloodthirsty and cruel in the execution of their "penalty", while I may agree that it would be better for everyone for that individual to be put to death, it would still make my stomach turn.

    It's a matter of the purpose and attitude behind the killing. Is there violence or mercy in your heart as you carry out the act? Are you seeking vengence on someone who you think deserves pain, or grudgingly carrying out an action that is the only feasable solution to prevent more violence?

    Do not consider these men animals. They are just as human as you and me, and they are also children of our Heavenly Father. It is not our place to judge them, but it is our place to protect those we can from violence. When the only way to provide that protection is through war and/or a death penalty, so be it. But we should not glory or revel in such decisions.

  21. I've read through this thread and after reading your response to everyone felt a need to chime in. It sounds to me like your biggest struggle right now is understanding why God would withdraw-

    You seem to be strong in your understanding of the gospel itself and in being patient with the weaknesses and shortcomings of your fellow men. This feeling a lack of God's hand in your life sounds like the central reason for your loss of faith, because it is the one thing that doesn't make sense with what you expect of the God you've studied and communed with all your life.

    However, there are countless examples in the scripture of God withdrawing himself- or at least appearing to do so, even from the faithful. Most prominent of those examples is the Savior himself. Remember that Christ had to bear the suffering in Gethsemane alone, and when he was on the cross His Father withdrew, causing even the Lord to cry out "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?".

    It sounds like you are experiencing a similar period of withdrawal. This is your test. Your trial of your faith. Funny that such trials usually require us to exercise faith when we don't feel faithful. But I can promise you that if you will exercise faith and seek to continue living the gospel, you will be blessed, and eventually the heavens will reopen to you.

  22. When I think of having hope amidst trials, I think of the necessity for action. Faith is described as the "hope for things which are not seen which are true". Certainly, the goodness of the gospel is something we cannot see in a world so rife with wickedness. But I believe the gospel to be true- I have hope for the future. This faith would fade, though, if I did not act on it. There's the parable of the two farmers struck with drought. Both of them prayed for rain, but only one of them went out to plant his fields. That farmer had faith, because he was trusting that the Lord would answer his prayers with rain, and he'd better have his fields prepared when it came.

    To maintain hope in hard times, we must prepare. But how? What do I do to exercise my faith and prepare for those things we know are to come- "which are not seen which are true"? I prayerfully study my scriptures. I strive to be the best example I can be to my son and teach him the basic principles of the gospel. I set goals for myself and constantly seek ways I can improve. I hold true to the standards I believe in and set strict rules for myself to help me avoid my weaknesses.

    While I cannot make decisions for the other people in the world, I can make decisions for myself, and I can utilize those decisions to have a positive influence on those around me. Every little bit counts, and sometimes- just sometimes- the strength of one person's example can have an overreaching ripple effect. Whether or not I influence many people, I know that at the very least, I can influence my son and my closest friends, family, and coworkers.

  23. One of my concerns with violence is there seems to be an attitude that it is okay to be violent with people the deserve it. The problem is deciding who deserves it. I have yet to meet anyone that thinks their violence was not justified. I was also interested to read that "Baby Face Nelson" a very violent "cop" killer during his final minutes in a gun battle in which he was killed expressed that he did not understand why so many people were angry with him - that he would never hurt a innocent person for any reason?

    I am convinced that leaving individuals to discern what level of violence is acceptable to them is not really a very good idea.

    The Traveler

    The bolded is something that always makes my stomach turn. If everyone got what they "deserved", then everyone would receive nothing but eternal suffering. I have a very hard time agreeing with people who say they're dishing out what someone else "deserves". It's not our place to make those kinds of decisions- that's in God's hands. He is the one meant to carry out justice, while we are to be merciful and forgiving of all men. Even the death penalty shouldn't be about giving someone what they deserve. It should be about protecting the safety of others.