GaySaint

Hi everyone: Just wanted you all to know that I'm not dead, will still answer emails etc., but recently got a new job that has required all my time (and brain power), and I still haven't quite figured out my routine. But I wanted to let everyone know I haven't forgotten about you =)

Bytor: It has been my experience that those who act out sexually because of abuse can also have those burdens lifted by counseling. In other words, once the abuse is sorted out and resolved in the person’s life, the behavior changes. I most certainly wouldn’t consider this person to be homosexual. Instead, I would say he used homosexual behavior as a way to cope with his past trauma. Why this particular behavior? He’d be better off to answer that question than I would be. You mention that he was “only attracted to women.” That right there tells me he is heterosexual (or on the heterosexual side of MOE’s scale). I think the problem with the friend in the OP is that he finds himself attracted to those of the same gender, regardless of his sexual experience (which I would assume would be none, but perhaps Lizzy could clarify if past/current abuse is something he is dealing with).

Hi Lizzy, I wanted to add my two cents: I knew I was gay when I was 12, although at 15 I doubt I would have had the courage to admit it to anybody, so the fact that he told you is really a great thing. It shows that he trusts you. I would agree with Soul that we are often conditioned to want to get married and have children, and that figuring out how to have a family/spouse/children etc. can be very confusing at this age for someone who feels attractions to their same gender. My advice to you would be not to put him in any one “box” – if you will. Be there for him regardless of his choices, and always encourage him to form a relationship with the Lord through prayer, also regardless of his choices. I often see gay people turn away from God because His followers tend to push them away. Even the quotes that you shared sure talked a lot about discipline, which we all know is not the best motivator. It isn’t fair to set his expectations as “marriage to a woman and children” as the only ideal, especially because I don’t know many gay men who are able to make this work out very well. He should also start being prepared for the possibility of celibacy, and perhaps even given information regarding the possibility of a homosexual relationship (when he is older, haha) so that he is able to make an informed decision. There really are three choices: Marriage to a woman, celibacy, and a relationship with another man. Hiding one of these options is not a good idea. Discussing the pros and cons of all of the above seems the best course of action. It would be fair to say that only option 1 or 2 would allow someone to remain a faithful member of the church (but since he isn’t a member of the church leaving out option 3 would seem like you are trying to force him into the “church” box. Does that make sense?). But options 1 and 2 have consequences of their own, and if these aren’t discussed fully and openly, when the consequences occur bad things can happen if the gay person isn’t prepared :). As someone who’s been there, feel free to PM me or have him do so if you think I can help, or if you have any questions (or ask them here too). But most of all, thank you for being concerned for him, and for being there for him. This really will mean more to him than you know.

As to some of the questions, as someone who has been through this, unless the CHI has changed in this regard, you are not allowed to wear garments or pay tithes after being excommunicated (although I do find it odd that a non-member can pay tithing if they wish, but excommunicated members can not). I specifically asked the tithing question because I wanted to continue paying them, but was instructed that I would not be allowed. I also believe that one would still have access to the Holy Ghost if such access is sought. The gift may be taken away, but I find that the spirit is always there when I ask it to be. There is no "formal" process for removing any of the gifts or blessings of the gospel (in other words, you don't have hands laid on your head to strip you of blessings, etc). I've always viewed excommunication as the Lord's way of saying, "Let's start over when you are ready." I believe very strongly that it has been a blessing in my life.

The FRC has been involved in a lot of interesting political campaigns lately dealing with the Uganda "kill the gays" bill. Specifically, the FRC paid $25,000 to lobby Congress against approving a resolution denouncing Uganda’s plan to execute homosexuals (I have a link to to the copies of the official lobbying report if anyone would like it posted, but it leads to a "gay friendly" blogger's website, so I don't want to post it without permission... Maybe I'll PM it to people who would like to see the report, or try to find another source) Doing a google search for Tony Perkins, the head of FRC, or worse, Peter Sprigg (who either wants gays sent out of the country or their lives criminalized, depending on the interview) will turn up the reasons I would personally consider FRC worthy of the "Hate group" label - and I think you all know I don't use those types of terms lightly... ever. I would be inclined to say, however, that anyone who supports the Uganda bill in its current iteration, which calls for the death of homosexuals, indeed deserves the label of "hate."

Ok, EVERGREEN garland would be accetable around a doorway or down a banister, but why would someone put evergreen garland on an evergreen Christmas tree. Filling in the visible gaps? OP: Take pictures. Let's clarify :) Although if your wife is saying no she's probably right, haha.

Trust the gay boy: NO TINSEL! 1970 was a long long time ago =)

Abigail: I spent years wishing and hoping and praying and fighting with the Lord over my unwanted feelings. I would encourage you to do the same, only because then you and your Heavenly Father will have some great talk time, and you will learn how to talk to Him and how to listen to Him. Don't get discouraged if he doesn't take these feelings away. The fact is that most of the time He doesn't (although there are the rare occasions!). But that doesn't need to make you lose hope. There is a great self-power and self-learned-lesson in accepting your feelings, loving that part of yourself just as much as you love any other part of yourself, and then, instead of asking God to remove them from you, asking Him, "Ok, I've accepted myself as and this challenge as part of me. I am still your daughter. Now what?" I admit that I know a lot more bisexual women than I do bisexual men. Personally, I think this has to do with how the Lord has given women the ability to be more compassionate, more loving, and more understanding (more emotional, haha) than most men (except us fabulous gay boys, that is, hehe). He didn't make a mistake, and I have no doubt that your feelings and attractions will play a larger role throughout eternity. We don't really understand everything about same-sex attraction yet, but that doesn't mean that God can't reveal to you His purpose FOR YOU in this life. If I could go back and tell my 15 year old self one thing, it would be not to cry myself to sleep every night over this. I would tell myself that I was ok, and that it's ok to love myself and be proud of the fact that I am different. I leave that same encouragement for you. If these feelings don't go away, trust yourself and your Heavenly Father enough to know that you will learn how to deal with them. And that's ok. If anything, the closeness this issue will cause you to get with your Heavenly Father makes you even MORE worthy, MORE beautiful, MORE humble, MORE understanding, and MORE compassionate - just like everyone's personal struggles do for them in their own way.

First of all Abigail, calm down, my dear. You should know first and foremost that God loves you, your parents love you, and there are many many members of the church who love you. The Lord is there to help you understand what he has prepared for you, and is willing to weep with you and be there for you when you are at your lowest lows. This is not your fault, and there are communities in the church who will be supportive of you. It might take you a long time to figure out what you want to do, and that's ok! The church just released the new edition of the handbook of instructions, and it emphasizes that what you are feeling is not sinful. You have done nothing wrong. Focus on your relationship with the Lord. He will help you. You may have some unique challenges to face (and let's admit it, some stupid people both inside and outside of the church), but you can do this. With the Lord's help you can be happy. There are tons of people on these forums, including myself, who are here for you. You are not alone.

Bytor, at first read I envisioned a male TSA agent, and I was a little shocked you would say that! hahaha. Anyway, TSA was right. The last time I was at the airport I accidently got into the full body scanner line. No biggy, but when I got through the line I asked the TSA agent if I could have a copy of my picture for my facebook account. He wasn't amused.

I meant christians as the christians define themselves: as members of the Christian Coalition (of which the Catholic church is not a part). By this definition, many religious organizations that claim christian ideals are not "Christians," including the LDS church. So for the purpose of my last post, that was the definition by which I was going, since that is the definition those in the Christian Coalition impose upon themselves. Maybe I should have used a different example That was my point. I don't think the study was trying to claim that 0% of lesbian mothers anytime anywhere throughout the known universe would abuse a child, just that in this particularly study, none had.

JAG: I would hope the study isn't used to "prove" that gay parents are better than straight parents, etc, but I can see why it would be used to suggest that gay parents aren't WORSE than straight parents, LESS virtuous, etc. I think the problems with such claims are also equally obvious. But it is silly to compare pearls to swine (I hate seeing the "perfect gay couple" compared to the "abusive straight couple" or the "sinful gay couple" compared to the "righteous mormon couple"). Let's compare good gay couples to good straight couples, and admit that the children in both are likely to experience a loving, accepting, home with parents who teach them values and morals (although it would be fair to admit that some of those values and morals may differ slightly, just as they would with a child raised in a good catholic home verses a good christian home).

LM: I'm just curious as to your worldview. Are you saying that it would be your guess that gay men would abuse their children more than the general population? I'm not trying to argue or change your worldview, I'm just wondering what in your worldview would make you think that. It might apply and it might not, but the rate of domestic violence in general in same-gender relationships (regardless of whether they are lesbian or gay) is about 25%, roughly the same as the rate of domestic violence against heterosexual women in opposite-gendered couples. (Domestic Violence in Gay Relationships).

PC: I'm sure it's possible to emulate the preparation, and the desire for a family, and the stability =) I don't think the RELATIONSHIP has anything to do with it, honestly. The relationship happened to RESULT in the preparation, desire, and stability, but the preparation, desire, and stability is not DEPENDENT on the relationship. I also have to admit that I find the part about the female children of these couples being more likely to experiment with members of the same-sex and identifying as having a more fluid sexuality interesting (and you all thought I would leave that part conveniently out of the discussion, lol). Since I don't have much experience with female sexuality I can't really comment on why I think this is...

I'm not quite sure what you are alluding to here. I think PC's last comment makes a lot of sense, and would expect the same to be true of gay males as well (in that, as they have to prepare a lot more for a child, the instances of abuse would be lower than the general male population until that preparation is no longer required. Then it would probably equal out to the same level of abuse amoung men in general). Do you not agree?

Lol. Bytor, maybe you should have left the one Dravin just quoted as "overcome" =) But in response, I would say that if an attraction is not sinful then it doesn't need to be overcome (do you need to overcome your attraction to other women, or do you simply control your behavior? Feeling "desire" isn't sinful either, IMO). Sinful behavior that can RESULT from an attraction may need to be controlled. In regards to homosexual attractions for those wishing to remain faithful to the church, one would have to endure the attraction and overcome the behavior.

Bytor: Can I ask one thing of you? Instead of saying that same-sex attraction can be “overcome” by faith, can you change “overcome” to “endure?” The reason is that when people with same-sex attraction hear this, it immediately leads to the conclusion that if someone doesn’t “overcome” their same-sex attraction, it must mean they LACK faith – which leads to discouragement, disappointment, and despair (and is highly untrue). I think there are many in the church, including leaders, who are leaning toward the understanding that same-sex attraction rarely if ever is “overcome” in this life. I don’t disagree that it can be endured with faith, and I think that saying someone can endure in faith is much more realistic. Unless by “overcome” you mean “still struggle with but control sufficiently” – but even if so, endure seems to be a better word for the intended meaning.

The most RECENT statement by the church that I can think of in regards to what will happen to homosexuals in the afterlife comes from God Loveth His Children:

JAG: Sorry for the lack of clarity =) Yes, not the illegal stuff!

I don’t know how much this will help, but I’ve been thinking about this subject quite a bit lately, and in particular the psychological aspects of addiction and pornography. As a little background, my thought process started while talking to a former cop who used to work with the internet crimes against children taskforce, and we were specifically talking about child pornography, but I think some of my thoughts on this issue (and you’ll see why they tie together to your situation in a minute) might help you think about your addiction differently. While talking to this cop, we got on the subject of how child pornographers seem to horde their “goods.” He talked about how it was usually pretty easy to find evidence for these people, because they could never bring themselves to delete ANYTHING. We talked about how it would be much more difficult to convict these people if they downloaded the porn, watched it, and then deleted it – but in his experience, this NEVER happened. And that got me thinking about how as human beings we all seem to have one major downfall: an attraction to the forbidden. For some reason, the fact that pornography (just the normal kind, in your case) is supposed to be “off limits” makes it that much more alluring. Maybe JAG can attest to this (as someone who has admitted to having been there and overcome this), but I know this was definitely true in my case. While I was “struggling with my sexuality” I had a hard time with pornography too. Now that I’m no longer a member of the church, and pornography is no longer “the forbidden fruit,” so to speak, I really have no desire to look at it. Obviously leaving the church isn’t what I’m suggesting, but finding a way to break the cycle of self-loathing, the allure of the forbidden, and the frantic frustration, I think, is the key (people who have low self-esteem, and tend to belittle themselves when the make a mistake, are even more susceptible to making the mistake again). So, is admitting to yourself that you are an adult and can look at porn if you want to, but choose not to as a Son of God, enough to break the attraction to the forbidden? Is enlarging your circle of friends, improving your body image (however you need to do this: gym, eating better, etc), dating more, or perhaps seeing another counselor enough to bolster your self-esteem? When your mind starts to race frantically in the cycle of “forbidden fruit, sin, self-loathing,” is there something you can do that is calming – something where you can make yourself feel in control? Maybe I’m wrong, but addressing these questions seems to have worked for other people I know, and they have to be addressed before you’ll have the power to beat the temptation. Do you see yourself as a valiant son of God who has his issues just like everyone else, or do you see yourself as a sinner? Just having hope does wonders at enabling us to be the best person we can be. I worked with a therapist regarding my SGA for two years who also did pornography addiction therapy. I’ll gladly share with you his name and contact information if you want to try counseling again (and I recommend him highly). Just PM me :)

Mahonri: I don't think anyone (particularly myself) was trying to suggest that BEHAVIOR can't be controlled. I can think of very few instances where someone can't deny themselves, or act in any way they please (torrets may be an exception, and perhaps even a plausible comparison). What I was impressed with was the understanding and compassion of this man. His view of his gay brothers and sisters both inside and outside of the church is one that could be very healing if it were adopted by the majority of the church membership. I have never wanted to go back to church more than when he said (paraphrased): I want to see my gay brothers and sisters, regardless of their current status, sitting next to me in sacrament meeting. I wish I knew what ward he was in, because I'd be there this Sunday. There aren't many members of the church who have the ability to make me feel that way... although I am happy to say that that number is growing. God is a God of love, and he has chosen NOT to provide the "miracle" of removing homosexuality from me or many other faithful LDS members who have to deal with same-gender attraction. His reasons are His own for this, and we do not have revelation as a church in regards to why this miracle almost never occurs. But that doesn't mean we get to question His motives. Maybe it is because He must abide by the laws of physics and cannot change our DNA. Maybe it is because He has some other purpose in the existance of homosexuality. Who knows. But Bill Bradshaw understands this - and his understanding makes his compassion very very real. In addition to changing the minds of members of the church and giving them the ability to understand this issue, he has changed my mind and given me more compassion for the members of the church - and I think that is a great great thing.

Carli: It is not normal TO YOU. Heterosexuality is not normal TO ME. Just because the "parts fit together" doesn't make it any more normal for me. In fact, I don't understand why anyone would want to engage in heterosexual behavior. But just because I don't understand it doesn't mean I can't understand that you DO understand it, and that it is normal for you. The church teaches that the attractions are perfectly fine - there is no sin therein. That seems pretty normal to me... just another variation like left handedness (which, also, for a time was considered a negative trait by the general population). But I'm not offended. I'm sad. I'm sad that you even refuse to acknowledge that was seems normal to you might not be normal for someone else. I'm sad that you don't see the word "normal" as completely subjective. But that's ok. I appreciate that you love and appreciate me anyway... and that's a start. EDIT: If you haven't listened to this yet, I highly recommend it: 191: BYU Professor Bill Bradshaw on a Biological Origin of Homosexuality | Mormon Stories Podcast Maybe it will help you see just how normal homosexuality is.

Carli: I would agree with you that a fireside set up to encourage members to believe homosexual BEHAVIOR is "right" would be... odd... But that is not what they are for. The topic is usually something along the line of "Loving, helping, and understanding those who struggle with same gender attraction." It should be noted that homosexual attraction IS normal, and as such, homosexual behavior IS normal for those with homosexual attractions (and homosexual attractions are NOT sinful). Being gay is very NORMAL to me (and normal is so subjective that I really hate that word). I would love to get you to the point where you believed homosexuality to be normal, but would never expect you to change your feelings about whether or not it is right. I think it is very possible to have a view that homosexuality is normal while still believing it is wrong. In fact, those who tend to feel this way in the church also tend to have the best understanding of homosexuality. I know you've struggled a bit about what you don't understand (and hate it when we tell you you don't understand something). I think this is it. I'm pointing it out because you asked me to on another forum a while ago.

Actually, there have been a number of these firesides (one recently with GA Marlin K Jensen), a stake conference in California, a panel in Idaho, a BYU presentation on the biological causes of homosexuality, and multiple "bridge building" groups. As to the squirming comment, did you not allude to the idea that a fireside on this subject would make you squirm when you said this?: If not, what did you mean?

I guess I have to admit that this is so personal for me because I spent years looking for someone like GMG, and never found someone like him AT ALL, let alone someone who could speak from personal experience. I was always told people like him existed, but no one would point me to where I could find one, and no one knew where these people were. Now, it's like he's saying "Yup, I'm here!" - which is great for people who were in my situation, but then they hit the wall of "Please don't contact for me. I'm HERE, but I'm not going to BE HERE for you." And that is very frustrating from my 14 year old self point-of-view. I think I would have been more upset over finding someone who was in my shoes who was unwilling to talk to me, than I was not being able to find that person to begin with.