Jason_J

I'm not here to argue w/you.  But I want to make this clear, so maybe this can stop.  Seminary, you're missing the point of why I'm offended.  Believe it or not, it's not b/c I "don't have the truth" therefore I'm "easily insulted and angered". 
 
If I started taking some of your church's history (you know, the less-than-proud moments) and posted them on a Catholic forum as "proof" of how terrible your church was, and therefore, couldn't be true, you would be offended too (provided of course, that we switched spots just as an example).  There are SO MANY instances in your church's history that I could use as an example, where I could just "cut" something out that Smith said or did (or Young or others) and then "paste" it on this forum without any thoughts of historical context, or justification for why said thing was said or done. You would consider this as unfair and disrespectful...but as long as it's not your church, then it must be a-okay!  Why not!  If they're offended, it's all their fault!!   Most members here, b/c you are LDS, can't recognize the half-truths from the truths, which were simply plucked out of history and put on parade for mocking.  Nor do you understand my faith and what we believe, so everything is out of context.  It is frustrating, and I'm trying to respond as best I can w/o getting angry.       
 
Jesus did not teach that the seed which is sown with discord, and made up with half-truths & deception, is the best seed for spiritual growth.  So how can I be enlightened through insults?  How does the Holy Spirit make good fruits come from such a seed?  And do you really think I have contentious motives & have problems with pride?  Do you believe that I'm easily angered and insulted?  Do you know me so well that you are prepared to judge me, without fear of offending, with a clean conscience??  Where is Christ in this conversation? 
 
How about we have an actual conversation again?  I would like that.   

spamlds, you can believe whatever you want. I don't fixate, like you are doing, on what is different or wrong about other Christian denomination. Catholics and Protestant have their different beliefs but we are still believers in the body of Christ. The Catholics that have visited this site, seem more respectful of others than you do. I have no idea what you are aiming to accomplish with your anti-non-LDS or anti-Bible threads. Do you think you are promoting the LDS faith in a positive light? Would new investigator coming here see it that way?
 
M. 

But TFP, don't you also believe that turning to God, also means accepting "some man" as in Joseph Smith and "a committee of men's views" like words from modern day Prophets, if one wishes to become a member of your church. Yes, you believe that these "men" speak for God, but they are still men.
 
M.

It is quite common that when someone quotes someone else, or claims that they said something, they cite the relevant primary source.  We have tons of writings from the early Christians, so faith4 is asking you to explicitly cite the relevant place where we can find what Origen and/or Cyprian said what is claimed they said.  Is that too much to ask?  Your works cited does not demonstrate that.
 
I decided to google the matter of milk and honey and baptism.  I must say, your sentence, "Baptism, a simple rite of immersion administered upon repentance became an elaborate ceremony including milk and honey..." is somewhat deceiving, as I am sure many of us were imagining the early Christians bathing themselves in milk and honey as part of the baptism.  Instead, what we do find is that after the baptism (and not part of the baptismal sacrament), mixed milk and honey would be given to the newly baptized Christian to drink, symbolizing the nourishment of Christ.  It had nothing at all to do with baptism per se, which in Catholicism has always only necessitated immersion in water or pouring of water, along with the invocation of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  As well, references seem to be pointing to this being tied to the Eucharist, the sacrificial offering of bread and wine (see "The Rites of Christian Initiation: Their Evolution and Interpretation"). 
 
http://www.christian-history.org/water-baptism-quotes.html
 
"In Africa, newly baptized believers were given a drink of milk and honey, symbols of their being children of Christ and citizens in heaven, a land of milk and honey."
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/1993/issue37/3702.html
 
 
So, I'm still not impressed by your purported evidences of the apostasy and presentation of Catholicism/ancient Christianity.  I still await why you seem to ignore the use of incense and flame in ancient Judaism as the origin of Catholic/Orthodox use of such elements in their liturgies, instead favoring a claim of origin in paganism.  I also await the specific ceremonies from military traditions and rituals marking the liberation of slaves.  Cite the specific source that I can read more.

It is quite common that when someone quotes someone else, or claims that they said something, they cite the relevant primary source.  We have tons of writings from the early Christians, so faith4 is asking you to explicitly cite the relevant place where we can find what Origen and/or Cyprian said what is claimed they said.  Is that too much to ask?  Your works cited does not demonstrate that.
 
I decided to google the matter of milk and honey and baptism.  I must say, your sentence, "Baptism, a simple rite of immersion administered upon repentance became an elaborate ceremony including milk and honey..." is somewhat deceiving, as I am sure many of us were imagining the early Christians bathing themselves in milk and honey as part of the baptism.  Instead, what we do find is that after the baptism (and not part of the baptismal sacrament), mixed milk and honey would be given to the newly baptized Christian to drink, symbolizing the nourishment of Christ.  It had nothing at all to do with baptism per se, which in Catholicism has always only necessitated immersion in water or pouring of water, along with the invocation of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  As well, references seem to be pointing to this being tied to the Eucharist, the sacrificial offering of bread and wine (see "The Rites of Christian Initiation: Their Evolution and Interpretation"). 
 
http://www.christian-history.org/water-baptism-quotes.html
 
"In Africa, newly baptized believers were given a drink of milk and honey, symbols of their being children of Christ and citizens in heaven, a land of milk and honey."
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/1993/issue37/3702.html
 
 
So, I'm still not impressed by your purported evidences of the apostasy and presentation of Catholicism/ancient Christianity.  I still await why you seem to ignore the use of incense and flame in ancient Judaism as the origin of Catholic/Orthodox use of such elements in their liturgies, instead favoring a claim of origin in paganism.  I also await the specific ceremonies from military traditions and rituals marking the liberation of slaves.  Cite the specific source that I can read more.

Yes and no.  Yes, nobody fully understands the Trinity, because no one fully understands God.  However, on a simple level, most thinking trinitarians understand that God is three persons, yet one God.  Can we get tied up in knots when critics try to dissect person, substance, how three can be one, etc.?  Without a doubt.  Understand, that critics are not unified either.  For example subordinationists (e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses) suggest that Jesus is something less than God.  Modalists say that Jesus is God, and that Father, Son, Spirit are roles that Jesus takes on.  Then there is the LDS Godhead, in which the Father, Son, and Spirit are absolutely separate, are all God, yet primary worship goes to the Father.  (LDS posters feel free to fine tune and correct nuances).
 
All this to say, we understand what we believe, and can explain it.  How the Trinity is possible, or how God manages himself--yeah nobody fully understands God, because we are not him.

You might find this helpful:
 
Early Christian and Jewish Rituals Related to Temple Practices
 
The Encylcopedia of Mormonism articles on the Endowment, Garments, Prayer Circle, and Washing and Anointing should be helpful to you in preparing for some of what to expect at your Endowment:
 
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Endowment
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Washings_and_Anointings
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Garments
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Prayer_Circle
 
You are right, the LDS temple is not exactly what was going on in Solomon's temple, since different priesthoods are involved, and we see that animal sacrifice was practiced anciently, but is unnecessary today.  However, you will find many elements of the LDS temple tied to ancient Jewish and Christian practices.  There are many books and articles available on that subject, and I think they will be helpful to you after you receive your Endowment.  I have always loved the Initiatory washing and anointing that you receive at the beginning of your Endowment, as it includes a clear, explicit reference to ancient Jewish practices related to washing and anointing. 
 
A great book for you to read after your Endowment is: The Gate of Heaven: Insights on the Doctrines and Symbols of the Temple.  It touches on many of these ancient (i.e. restored) aspects of the temple. 
 
As you continue your scripture study, concepts I think that you should focus on include things like washing, anointing, sacred clothing, new names, creation, the Fall, Atonement, covenants, returning to God's presence.

You might find this helpful:
 
Early Christian and Jewish Rituals Related to Temple Practices
 
The Encylcopedia of Mormonism articles on the Endowment, Garments, Prayer Circle, and Washing and Anointing should be helpful to you in preparing for some of what to expect at your Endowment:
 
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Endowment
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Washings_and_Anointings
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Garments
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Prayer_Circle
 
You are right, the LDS temple is not exactly what was going on in Solomon's temple, since different priesthoods are involved, and we see that animal sacrifice was practiced anciently, but is unnecessary today.  However, you will find many elements of the LDS temple tied to ancient Jewish and Christian practices.  There are many books and articles available on that subject, and I think they will be helpful to you after you receive your Endowment.  I have always loved the Initiatory washing and anointing that you receive at the beginning of your Endowment, as it includes a clear, explicit reference to ancient Jewish practices related to washing and anointing. 
 
A great book for you to read after your Endowment is: The Gate of Heaven: Insights on the Doctrines and Symbols of the Temple.  It touches on many of these ancient (i.e. restored) aspects of the temple. 
 
As you continue your scripture study, concepts I think that you should focus on include things like washing, anointing, sacred clothing, new names, creation, the Fall, Atonement, covenants, returning to God's presence.

You might find this helpful:
 
Early Christian and Jewish Rituals Related to Temple Practices
 
The Encylcopedia of Mormonism articles on the Endowment, Garments, Prayer Circle, and Washing and Anointing should be helpful to you in preparing for some of what to expect at your Endowment:
 
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Endowment
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Washings_and_Anointings
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Garments
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Prayer_Circle
 
You are right, the LDS temple is not exactly what was going on in Solomon's temple, since different priesthoods are involved, and we see that animal sacrifice was practiced anciently, but is unnecessary today.  However, you will find many elements of the LDS temple tied to ancient Jewish and Christian practices.  There are many books and articles available on that subject, and I think they will be helpful to you after you receive your Endowment.  I have always loved the Initiatory washing and anointing that you receive at the beginning of your Endowment, as it includes a clear, explicit reference to ancient Jewish practices related to washing and anointing. 
 
A great book for you to read after your Endowment is: The Gate of Heaven: Insights on the Doctrines and Symbols of the Temple.  It touches on many of these ancient (i.e. restored) aspects of the temple. 
 
As you continue your scripture study, concepts I think that you should focus on include things like washing, anointing, sacred clothing, new names, creation, the Fall, Atonement, covenants, returning to God's presence.