carlimac

FYI, I grew up in Holladay and I still love it there.  But the prices are well above 400k on average.

Oh sure, next you'll be expecting a bunch of Utah kids to stop drooling on themselves and licking the windows.

There are not different standards. There are different ways of meeting the (one) standard. I disagree with EM that "release time is really the only option"—I don't see why every stake in Utah couldn't operate its own early-morning seminary, just like almost every other stake in the world not located in the Mormon Corridor—but that is not the issue.
In Utah and Idaho, many children have the option of attending seminary during their regular school day. When this can be an option, why would anyone seek to disallow it? How does it hurt you or your children if the children of Utahans attend seminary in the middle of the day instead of early morning? It's more convenient for them, they want to do it, and the schools are willing to accommodate. Where's the problem? If they offered release-time seminary around here, I expect almost all the kids in the stake (including mine) would want/have wanted to attend.

then why are there different standards for Utah/idaho kids and the rest of the world? Just have the kids go to their ward buildings at  6 Am and divide up into classes just like they do everywhere else? It can't be that hard. 

No it’s all part of the same ball of gum. Homeschooled and public school kids outside of Utah go to early morning seminary. Why can’t the same exact seminary program be administered to homeschooled kids in Utah? One poster said home schooled families in Utah were having a hard time figuring out when to have seminary. My answer is 6AM like everywhere else. Gather a bunch of homeschooling families together and have a teacher called by the stake or two or three stakes if the students are compiled from that many stakes. Is there some rule that the only Seminary taught in Utah has to be taught by a professional teacher? 
About accreditation- are ALL seminary programs accredited? If not, which are and which aren’t? If they all are, why would accreditation a problem for homeschooled families if they are taking EMS? Doesn’t make sense. 
If only RTS is accredited, does that mean there are no missionaries called to Brazil from , say, New York  or Pennsylvania or Kansas where RTS isn’t an option?

Actually I am. 

This is basically the discussion: 
Connie: " I have longed to see seminary less entrenched in the public school schedule, especially here in Utah. It is incredibly hard for homeschoolers and those who chose alternative education to find a good time for seminary for their kids here in my area. " 
Carlimac: " Why not do it like the rest of the world does it. 6 AM weekdays? 
Johnson Jones:  Or online home study
Vort: "Problem is seminary is a collective school class, unless you do home study" ( he thinks it's not  a good option). He's not sure if early morning seminary is available in Utah
Carlimac: "I don't see why they couldn't" do early morning in Utah. Remembers people and situations where it indeed happened. And then blah, blah homeschoolers just don't want to give up their ability to sleep in every day,  she hates EMS for her own kids,  blahbity blah
Estradling: Lives in Utah and drops his son off to early morning seminary ( Yes it does in fact exist !)
Then Annatess enters with her take on how well seminary works for her family and all the Floridians and Filipinos at 5:30 AM and Carlimac says good for you but it's not all so rosey up north where she resides.And then some silliness occurs, blah blah blah- whatever. 
THEN MOE enters the conversation confusing Carlimac about accreditation and why it makes it not possible for homeschoolers to do seminary and they can't go on missions to Brazil. carlimac goes Huh?? Why can't they? And what is this accreditation thingy and then maybe homeschoolers just shouldn't go to Brazil on missions then. 
And then MOE goes " What are you talking about? You MUST be confused. And I go- NOT So fast Buster YOU are the one who brought up accreditation. So who gets this credit thing and who doesn't and if they don't they should so everybody can go to Brazil on a mission. 
And then Annatess asks Carlimac sweetly if maybe she could ask her stake president to set up a class (It would be accredited by the way- whew! We can go to Brazil.). But carlimac is a tad confused (again) because she doesn't live in Utah. She lives in Maryland and her kids already go to seminary at 5:50 AM!! 
Then Vort saves the day by explaining very clearly what Carlimac meant. 
But we're all still confused by this accreditation business and afraid we might not get to go to Brazil. May we should go to Florida or the Philippines instead.
 
Does that make sense?
 
And then MOE beats carlimac to the gun and attempts to explain accreditation before she can post. But carlimac still doesn't get what it has to do with homeschoolers taking early morning seminary in Utah. Maybe  all Utah homeschoolers should move to Florida where it works wonderfully to get up early for seminary. But not Maryland...or Brazil.
 
 

I should have added a P.S. - I was devout Catholic who got married to an inactive LDS... fully expected him to become Catholic as he was attending Catholic Church service with me... I got baptized LDS 4 years later, sealed to my husband in the temple a year after that.
 

I’m just floored that somebody described my post as “sweetly”.  I’m now feeling mushy inside. 😃

Also accredited in the Philippines if that helps.

I would absolutely love that! And that's pretty much what i mean when i say i wish it wasn't so entrenched with the public school. Even thinking of my own experience in high school. It would have been wonderful to have early morning seminary and then get to take some more extra curricular classes.
I don't know about other areas of Utah, but there is very little concession made here for alternative education styles. We are pretty much expected to gain intimate knowledge of the public school schedule, which is frankly quite asinine, and never fits in very well with the online school our kids go to. There is one early morning class across the two high schools in my area. They make it very clear to any who ask that that class is reserved for public schooled kids who need to take extra courses and cannot do released time. They do offer home study but only if you make it clear that there is no time your kid can possibly attend during one of their class periods. There is also an online class, but they don't even mention that option unless you've gone a while doing home study. The online class is awful.

This is basically the discussion: 
Connie: " I have longed to see seminary less entrenched in the public school schedule, especially here in Utah. It is incredibly hard for homeschoolers and those who chose alternative education to find a good time for seminary for their kids here in my area. " 
Carlimac: " Why not do it like the rest of the world does it. 6 AM weekdays? 
Johnson Jones:  Or online home study
Vort: "Problem is seminary is a collective school class, unless you do home study" ( he thinks it's not  a good option). He's not sure if early morning seminary is available in Utah
Carlimac: "I don't see why they couldn't" do early morning in Utah. Remembers people and situations where it indeed happened. And then blah, blah homeschoolers just don't want to give up their ability to sleep in every day,  she hates EMS for her own kids,  blahbity blah
Estradling: Lives in Utah and drops his son off to early morning seminary ( Yes it does in fact exist !)
Then Annatess enters with her take on how well seminary works for her family and all the Floridians and Filipinos at 5:30 AM and Carlimac says good for you but it's not all so rosey up north where she resides.And then some silliness occurs, blah blah blah- whatever. 
THEN MOE enters the conversation confusing Carlimac about accreditation and why it makes it not possible for homeschoolers to do seminary and they can't go on missions to Brazil. carlimac goes Huh?? Why can't they? And what is this accreditation thingy and then maybe homeschoolers just shouldn't go to Brazil on missions then. 
And then MOE goes " What are you talking about? You MUST be confused. And I go- NOT So fast Buster YOU are the one who brought up accreditation. So who gets this credit thing and who doesn't and if they don't they should so everybody can go to Brazil on a mission. 
And then Annatess asks Carlimac sweetly if maybe she could ask her stake president to set up a class (It would be accredited by the way- whew! We can go to Brazil.). But carlimac is a tad confused (again) because she doesn't live in Utah. She lives in Maryland and her kids already go to seminary at 5:50 AM!! 
Then Vort saves the day by explaining very clearly what Carlimac meant. 
But we're all still confused by this accreditation business and afraid we might not get to go to Brazil. May we should go to Florida or the Philippines instead.
 
Does that make sense?
 
And then MOE beats carlimac to the gun and attempts to explain accreditation before she can post. But carlimac still doesn't get what it has to do with homeschoolers taking early morning seminary in Utah. Maybe  all Utah homeschoolers should move to Florida where it works wonderfully to get up early for seminary. But not Maryland...or Brazil.
 
 

I'm pretty sure that @carlimac is saying that almost all Utah (LDS) high school students who go to seminary attend it as a "release-time" class. That is to say, these students literally get an hour off during the school day to go attend seminary, just like any other class. In effect, for purposes of attendance during the day, seminary becomes one of their high school classes. I believe that carlimac is arguing that Utah kids and their parents who don't want to take up a valuable class slot could just do what most seminary kids outside of Utah do: Attend early-morning seminary. I can't see why a stake president couldn't set up an early-morning seminary class for those who wanted it, or maybe talk with three or four presidents of adjacent stakes and get full early-morning seminary classes for each grade.

For the record, my homeschooled son just returned from serving in Brazil for two years. But he did go to early-morning seminary, and yes, his seminary graduation was required for his service in Brazil. (He received a high school diploma from our local public school, if that is of any interest.)

And that's your experience. Ours is slightly different. Seminary starts at 5:50. School first bell rings at 7:20. My husband has subbed in Seminary many times and he can guarantee that all the kids are not wide awake. And he's a far more engaging teacher than they normally have. The reality is that some kids can make it to bed by 8:30 or 9:00 but many can't. Mine have after school activities till 5:00 or later. One is going straight from track to driver's ed for three hours. And then there is Mutual once a week that takes another two hours of their evening time on Tuesdays.  Some kids have more honors and AP classes- ( my 9th and 10th graders do which is another pet peeve! The school is pushing the kids to take these classes in the lower grades to raise school ratings. Grr!)  Some kids have after school jobs which prevent them from getting their studies done so they can get to bed early. In fact I'd say more kids than not are up waaay past 9 PM. It's been this way for all my 7 kids. I know it's this way for many kids in our ward.
I'm on pick up duty several times a week- taking the non-driving kids from Seminary to school. I have to admit they generally come out smiling and laughing ( especially when one kids burns his popcorn in the microwave time after time and all the alarm lights in the building start flashing and a firetruck shows up.) So it's benefiting them socially. Which is good for them being in such a minority at school.  I just don't think it's good for them physically or mentally. My most diligent, organized and motivated child who always gets right to her homework and makes her bed in the morning was in tears (again) last week because she was so tired.  I hesitate to say it's benefiting them much spiritually, either. This year anyway.  

I don't see why not. Homeschooling families collaborate on lots of other kinds of experiences- field trips , weekly PE and music classes. They could figure out Seminary if they really wanted to. If early morning Seminary can be done in the rest of the world I don't know why it can't be done in Utah. In fact when we lived in Idaho there was an early morning Seminary at our high school for the kids that didn't have room in their schedules for it during the school day and for the kids that attended private and charter schools. Also I had a friend who would be in her 40s now who attended early morning seminary in Provo.  
My post was part snark. Utah kids are so pampered when it comes to Seminary! My family has done both RTS and EMS. Early morning is exponentially harder to experience. And it's and often times less educational depending on whichever teacher gets "called"-unlike Utah kids who get Seminary in the middle of the school day by a professionally trained teacher. 
 Homeschooling families have so much flexibility- which is one of the main reasons I've heard they do it. I have heard numerous moms tout that they don't have to get up early and can even do school in their pjs if they want to. They more than public schoolers should be able, ESPECIAlly in Utah where there are so many LDS home-schooling families, to figure out how to get a teacher called from some ward to teach them at 6 AM. They just probably prefer not to do it that early. Ha! If only personal preference held any weight outside of the "bubble" on this matter. I'd bet at least 98% of seminary students and at least 75% of their parents prefer to not have it at 6 AM out here in outer darkness. Yes that's what it feels like at 5:30 AM carting these half asleep kids to a class they don't get much out of. 
 

How about at 6:00 AM like just about everywhere in the world  except Utah (and parts of several other western states). 

It says a lot about the integrity of the teacher that when the boy explained what it had been that she asked if there was some way to reapply it. That alone is apology enough. The school even had an ordained deacon come down and do just that. So that should have been the end of it.
Having her placed on leave was totally unnecessary.

Maybe, but I'm not sure I agree with that. I can't speak for mama bears, but mama humans are expected to model charity and other virtues for their children. If in fact the child didn't inform the teacher that the ash was a religious mark until after he had wiped it off, then that's a pretty important point (important in the perspective of this teapot tempest). Grandma should be among the first to be telling her grandson that it was an honest mistake and not to blame the teacher for messing up, especially when she immediately apologized and sought to rectify the situation.
Given that it appeared to have been an honest mistake caused in large part by a lack of communication, I think that all parties should quickly drop hostilities and finger-pointing unless life, limb, or property had been threatened. None of those were. So Grandma "bear" should chill out and lead by example.

I don't think there is anything to forgive her for. She did not do anything wrong if she did not know what the smudge was or the student did not clearly tell her what it was for. "It is for the start of Easter" is not the same as saying "it is a holy symbol of my religion."

https://www.standard.net/news/education/bountiful-teacher-apologizes-for-ash-wednesday-incident/article_c90e54fe-36a3-59cb-ae1e-fee379d39be8.html 

No, the kid has now said she told him to wipe it off and he did. She them asked what it was and he explained what it was. She then asked if there was a way to reapply it. The media and family messed up the timeline of events and this led to social media branding her as Satan incarnate. It was just honest ignorance.
I did not know about the ashes on the forehead until I was 40 years old, so I can see how this is an honest mistake.

Really?   C'mon.

Catholics, Anglicans, Methodists and Lutherans, at least.  It's not exactly uncommon, though as mentioned, most faiths do it at late afternoon or evening meetings.  Methodists around here use it as an excuse for a pancake supper, usually, so it's rarely seen outside the church unless (as usual) a bunch of them hit the cafe to finish filling up after the pancakes run out.  Judging from the sign at the Lutheran church, (and a few people I didn't recognize at Taco Bell later with ashes on their foreheads) it appears they do pretty much the same.
Depending on his specific faith's beliefs, (and that may come down to a particular congregation, at least among Methodists and Lutherans) it may very much be equivalent.  Some remove it at will, holding the act of receiving it to be the operative ritual of penance, others leave it for the duration of a group service or personal prayer, while others hold that the wearing of the ashes for the remainder of the day is necessary to fulfill a requirement of public penance.  (A benefit of doing it in the evening, since you don't have to refrain from washing your face all day.  In a hot climate, that can be uncomfortable, even this early in the year.)  Either way, it is viewed as something requested or commanded by God or by those ordained to authority by Him, so absolutely on par with the wearing of garments for LDS, the Orthodox Jew's kippah, or any of the Sikh's constant symbols.  One might say even more so since it's something to be maintained only for part of one day a year, rather than a daily imposition for the rest of one's life.  
I doubt it.  One is more likely to be unaware of the existence of religion in general than the fact that there have been numerous lawsuits won against schools resulting from teachers overstepping their bounds regarding religious observances, Scripture reading or voluntary group prayer during free time, etc. and yet they keep happening because teachers refuse to learn from them.  I really can't imagine that any teacher certification classes and/or new hire orientation in the last couple of decades haven't included some strongly worded reminders to tread very lightly where religion is involved, and yet they keep stepping right into the middle of messes like these.
At the very least, this teacher should have contacted the office to clarify the rule as soon as the student voiced a religious objection.

This story is essentially a teacher not knowing a religious tradition and just trying to enforce school rules.  It's sad that she didn't know, and I feel bad for the kid.  This something that everyone involved needs a hug and open heart.  A social media swarm is the opposite of that.