Mute

Hi MarlaGrrl, I don't know what state you're from or how his family is exactly other than what you said. Strict. There are no repercussions to not going except possibly regret if that is something he partly wants to do. It is possible his friends or family may judge him or treat him badly but I don't know them well enough to say. From what you've said, you won't. So that is one awesome support he will have in any decision he makes. I know there are all sorts of members of the church. Some will judge. Others will not and be a friend to you. The ones that will judge are not worth caring about the opinions of anyways. God wouldn't attack someone or try to make them feel guilty for not doing something they do not want to do. I firmly believe that. He knows what your boyfriend is going through. He would be understanding. Don't let someone else pressure him into making a decision he doesn't want to. If he goes, it should be for God and no one else and no one else should have a say or opinion in it. It has to be his choice. Be supportive as you have been and I know it will work out for you. If you are a Christian, I'd encourage you to pray about it as well as your boyfriend to see if that is what he wants to do. I'd encourage you both to pray for understanding to know what is right and the best choice to make as well as encouragement to do it. I'd honestly ignore what you hear from most others unless you trust them and trust their advice. A random stranger is just that. Random. A random stranger online is often much worse. I never went on a mission. I removed my name from the church instead. Not going was the right choice for me. I truly believe that. Now, I'm strongly considering getting re-baptized. I already finished the missionary discussions etc. I'm not doing it for anyone else. What others think and say does not matter. Honestly, I'd never seek for personal advice in an online forum but I'm doing the best I can to help you out. The best advice I can give you is for the two of you to pray about it and do what you feel is right. I'd take everything you hear from most people you don't know or don't fully trust with a large grain of salt. Sometimes an enormous grain of salt. I'd even take what you know from those you trust with a small one. Do what you personally feel is right and trust that and go with it. Ignore what everyone else says. If they're not supportive, then don't pay them any attention. I sincerely hope that helps you. Just wanted to add one other thing. In the almost two years I've lived in Utah, some people have been pushy towards me with religious beliefs but most people have been very respectful. You'll always have the jerks that are disrespectful or pushy but in the area I live most have not been that way with me. You'll see a lot more pushy/judging people on these forums than you will in person I bet. Anyways, that's my two cents.

I would do what you trying to still do. Get him to realize that what others think and feel doesn't matter. It's possible they may not be looking at him and viewing him as he thinks they are. Really, he needs to get his confidence by just doing his own reading and praying and learn to trust in the lord, you and those close to him and not what others think. He has to concentrate on the good and ignore the bad. Then in time, he will see that it's true and not worry about what others think. I hope that helps.

Speaking in front of a large group or even discussing something personal in a one on one setting can bring about tears. The atmosphere of it all can bring it. I feel like crying many times when I speak in public or simply talk about personal things with someone I know. It's nothing to worry about. I'd say it's normal enough.

Last time I went trick or treating, I was 17 years old. I didn't dress up. When people asked what I was supposed to be, I said I'm a 17 year old boy TRICK OR TREAT and they dished out the candy. Not sure why they call it trick or treating though. I've only ever been treated and never tricked.

I'm not going to tell you whether or not you should remove your name but I honestly do not believe name removal is going to solve your problems. It sounds like you feel resentment towards God. You believe he is real, but you don't believe he is kind (at least not in your situation). You don't believe he answers prayers but you still believe in him. Is that correct? If so, is it that you feel hurt by these beliefs? You're already not active. You haven't been active for 8 years. Is having your name off a membership record going to fix all that is troubling you? If you have your name removed, you may try to be happy. But if you can't let go, then you would continue to be effected by these thoughts. The fact that you're posting on a random forum, leads me to believe that it must bother you quite a bit. The fact that you are here asking leads me to think that you're not certain on your beliefs but more so just torn between the two possibilities of God answering prayers and being there or not. If you really think God is 100% like you described, I don't believe you would be on this forum. I think you have mixed feelings. Else, why would you be here asking the opinions of random strangers? It's not the people here that are going to change your mind though. It's those feelings you have inside of hurt and the thought you could be wrong that need fixing. That makes it so you can't just let go of your pain and move on. Name removal isn't going to fix that. In one of your posts you said: Around the time I had my name removed, I went to former lds sites. Lots of them. This was after I had already made up my mind to leave the lds faith. I felt like I had no one to talk to or relate to. I wanted someone to understand what it was that I was feeling and going through. What I found was very different. They never let go. Many of the posters on these sites seemed to glorify their exit stories as a badge of honor and they were still clinging onto the church even 20 years after their names had been removed by either excommunication or asking for their names to be removed themselves. The vast majority of them were so filled with hate. They made exaggerated claims and kept up on what the lds faith was doing more than an active member would do. The motto of these sites were they were helping with "recovery" from mormonism. But they weren't recovering from anything. They were obsessed. The church troubled them just as much if not more than when they were actual members. Regardless of their reasons they claim, regardless of whether or not they're true (which I don't believe many of their stories are to the extent they describe but that is also true for many posts on this forum), they never let go. I don't personally buy their execuses they make for why they don't let go but that is besides the point. The point is you won't fix your situation by simply leaving and you won't find your answers by asking here. People can tell you what they believe and it may influence you to a point but it's not going to change what you feel and believe inside. It's not going to provide you with the answer you're seeking. The only thing you'll find is people providing you with unsatisfactory answers that won't make you feel like you are really any closer to answering your question. You have to fix the feeling inside you. The only way I can think to do that is to try praying and reading again. You said you were inactive for the last 8 years. Why not give it your best shot to read and pray again? Do it long enough where you can say "okay, I've given it a fair chance" without intentionally looking for it to be false or true. Then make up your mind to either stay or leave. If you stay, stay for you and because it's what you personally believe. If you leave, let go and don't let it eat at you for the rest of your life. Otherwise, I don't believe you will ever have a peace of mind. I know how it is to lose faith in church leaders. I left the lds faith 9 years ago. At age 18, I felt extremely disheartened and depressed in my life. I fasted for 3 days and then went to the bishop of my ward. I just broke down into tears despite seldom ever crying. I had to hand him a piece of paper with what I wanted to say because I couldn't speak. I just cried uncontrollably. After he read it, I asked the bishop for a blessing of comfort. In it, the strangest thing happened. The bishop started talking about Mcdonalds during the blessing. I didn't know what to make of it. Maybe the bishop had been fasting longer than I had. Bottom line, it bothered me. I thought possibly it was just a weird day for the bishop and perhaps the stake president could help me if I could just talk to him. So I asked another bishop how to talk to the stake president. The bishop's response was very cruel and harsh. He told me if I had a problem with what was said to me that I should leave the church and have my name removed. That was probably the last thing I was expecting to happen. I had never told this bishop any detail other than I was troubled by an encounter with my bishop. Then he treated me with contempt. I felt lost after this. I didn't know what to think. Were these not men of God I thought? If God is leading these people, would he not speak through them to communicate to me and help me in my time of most need? I thought to myself “Is God even real?” Were the impressions I had of a loving God real? Was he siding with the church? Was I in the wrong? Was there anyone out there? Ultimately, I didn't know. I felt alone. I didn't feel like I had anyone to turn to. I was not close to my family. When I tried to talk to them, I didn't feel like they understood me or related to my situation. So I didn't let them know how unhappy I was or the things that had transpired with the bishops. As the months went by, many more experiences caused my faith to drastically diminish. I doubted and questioned everything. The reflection that everything I had once believed was not true was earth shattering to me and I felt my world come tumbling down. Confusion over took me to where I started to doubt my own sanity. Had I been living a lie all this time? The thought was almost more than I could bear. I had lost faith in virtually everything of importance to me. My religion, the belief that God was real, my family, myself and even this life in general was no longer how I had once seen it. A veil had crept over my eyes and to see anything in a positive manner was almost impossible for me. To further my despair, I decided to "celebrate" this time by removing my name from the religion I had grown up in as a step towards ending it all and nearing myself closer to oblivion. On my 19th birthday, I met with a new bishop of our ward. I handed him a one sentence paper asking for my name to be removed. When he asked me why I wanted to do that, I told him my reasons were personal and that I did not wish to share them. The bishop told me that just as people must be of the age of accountability to join, so must they be to leave and that unless I provided him with my reasons, he would not honor my request to leave. He then accused me of participating in various sins which I was not guilty of. This threw me through quite a loop and I didn't find out why this happened until years later. But at the time, I honestly started to wonder if I really was in a cult as some people claimed the church was. I thought to myself "this proves it then, there really isn't anything there and this is something to get out of" but I didn't know why it was happening. I ended up going around the bishop and writing directly to Salt Lake headquarters with my resignation letter, which they in turn sent to the stake president. At the end of each month, I'd call the stake president and ask him if he took care of my resignation letter and each time he told me he had not but that he would get right on it. After nine months of still no results, I called Salt Lake to see if they could ask him to take care of it, which he promptly did. It took a total of two years to have my name removed. Several years later, I found out why I had received so much resistance in having my name removed. My father and one of my brothers found out from a friend of mine that I planned to have my name removed. So they asked the bishop not to honor my request. The reason the bishop accused me of sins I was not guilty of was because my brother was guilty of them and he told the bishop he figured I was too. I still don't think what happened was right and I'd find it very difficult for me to have as much faith in church leaders as I did before but you can still move past this. Can a person still have faith in church leaders even after really bad things happen? I believe you can have faith in them being "tools used by God when they listen to the spirit" but that wouldn't mean their every action is collinear with God all the time. If the church is true, I don't believe bishops are placed in power so that everything they do can be word for word the act of God. I think they're used to help but ultimately it would be the spirit and God that should be who you go and listen to. If the spirit is real, then you would need it in order to tell what is inspired and what is not. You would need it to lead you on which way to go or what to do. If it is real, then I believe that would be your best tool to have. That could make sure you're not lead astray and protected even in times that are difficult in your faith. How does someone recognize the Holy Ghost? Is it just the first impression in our mind? Is it any good feeling we may have? In asking people to describe what the holy ghost felt like with them, I've heard explanations that are so widefully different that I had a hard time believing that most really knew what they were talking about. I think a lot of people believe in the church and that belief can be very strong. I believe they feel like they know but is that knowing? I've had strong impressions from reading scriptures before. I've also had emotionally positive thoughts and feelings from watching movies (many of which were R rated), reading books, listening to music etc. It was the principles, the uplifting stories and the thoughts and feelings that came to my mind in them that made me feel good. Hell, I felt pretty good watching fictional movies such as Star Wars. In the same way, I felt good about stories, principles and actions by those talked of in the Book of Mormon. They were inspiring to me. I don't know if that makes the stories true though. I believed in them but I didn't "know". Are these things the holy ghost? Lets look at what the Book of Mormon said on the subject. Alma 32: 28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me. 29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge. 30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow. 31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness. 32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away. 33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good. 34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand. 35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is alight; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect? 36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good. Sometimes when I read, it did feel like I "knew". It felt like my understanding was growing and enlightening. It made me feel good to think about it. That to me would be the closest thing to the spirit I know of but I could not call it knowing. More like following your heart. Take the Land Before Time. When Little Foot's mother says to him "Some things you see with your eyes, others with your heart". That's kind of what it's like. It was just what I felt was right. It's just thoughts and feelings can be deceiving and difficult to recognize and understand. So I'm extremely hesitant to say I "know" something based on that alone without considering all the possibilities. It was just what I felt was right. When I start trying to say my impressions are from God, that is a dangerous slope. How many people have you seen claiming to speak for God or that God is telling them something that doesn't feel right to you? If you're saying you know something from God, or the Holy Ghost is telling you something, you had better be right. I don't want to lead people astray because I didn't understand what it was I was experiencing. Perhaps, the longer you spend on it, reading scriptures as Alma says, it will grow. If it does that, then is it not real? Will you not come to fully understand it? Then maybe you would know your answer.

I think you may possibly be trying the wrong approach. No where in your post did you say you ever just sat down and tried talking with him. Is your son close to you? Does he often share his thoughts and feelings with you about why he feels unhappy? If the answer is no, then maybe that would be a good place to start. If your son isn't wanting to talk about the root of the problem with you, then there is probably a reason for that. I felt suicidal for a very long time. I didn't have that connection with my family where I could just talk to them about things. A large part of that was because of physical abuse by relatives and neglect from parents. I didn't feel close to my family. Often times, the subjects that made me unhappy were not comfortable for me to talk or think about. So I kept them inside even though they bothered me. My family was oblivious to the fact that I was feeling unhappy and that too made me feel distant from them. Not that a family needs to be mind readers, but it is nice when someone at least notices you're not feeling happy. It wasn't until a friend told them that I was feeling suicidal that they realized how I was feeling. Yes, my parents loved me but there was no connection there. There wasn't the ability for me to really open up and feel compassion from them even if they were offering. There just wasn't anything there anymore. When I did try to talk to them, I felt like they didn't understand or missed the point. It was frustrating and it made it increasingly difficult. However, they were who I wanted to talk to. Even if I didn't feel they understood, even if I didn't feel close to them or hurt by them, they were still the only ones I wanted and the only ones I felt could help. I think in spending time with your son, maybe he will open up to you about what is really bothering him. This may not be 100% how your son is but I'd say it's not a bad guess since you never mentioned just trying to talk to him about it. Also, I'd suggest not over reacting and trying to commit him to a hospital or anything like that. Things shortly went south after my family found out from a friend that I was feeling suicidal. I was staying in my room for a day. They apparently thought I was going to shoot myself in my room after I locked the door. They called the police after I asked to be left alone. Next thing I know, the police are knocking on my bedroom door telling me I have to go to a hospital. This did not exactly strengthen my relations to my family. I didn't get committed to the hospital though. When my sister was trying to check me into the hospital, I told the lady at the desk I was not suicidal and that it was a misunderstanding. So the lady could not force me to stay unless I admitted I was suicidal. My point is, if your son was going to kill himself, I'm betting he would have done it by now or at least that he won't do it as long as he sees hope. If you keep talking with him, I don't think he will just give up. Encourage him, let him know you love him and listen without interrupting if he wants to talk to you. That's my advice and hopefully it applies to your situation. Good luck with that.

Is there a rule that you can't pray and fast for both? Why don't you just do that? Maybe you'll get an answer to both. I know I fasted three days straight once for an answer and I was never sure if there was any answer given or what to think. Now hopefully that isn't your case but if it is, then I'm not really sure what to tell you other than what you're already trying. Pray, read scriptures and see if that works. You could also ask other people that you know, trust and feel have a good knowledge and experience with the subject. I'm personally hesitant to do that with most people because I tend not to find other people's answers very satisfactory. That's me though. Anyways, good luck in your search. I hope you find your answers.

If it was money and not a gift card, I'd say save most of it and invest. However, since it is a gift card, maybe you could do a little of both? Get something for yourself and your child?

I learned Santa wasn't real when my mother asked me to eat the cookies we had just placed out for Santa. The rest of my older siblings were asleep and I knew they no longer believed. Believing in Santa was exciting and great fun. I used to think I could stay awake just to meet him but little kids often believe anything no matter how little sense it makes. A fat man coming down the chimney to give me presents made all the sense in the world back then. Believing in Santa was enjoyable for me but it did make me lose a little trust with my parents when I found out he wasn't real. I don't know if I'd want to lie to my kids and tell them he is real just so they can enjoy the whole magical effect of it all. I like knowing the truth even if it is less fun. I guess I'm more or a red pill rather than a blue pill kind of guy but the blue pill sometimes seems more fun. I'm sure there are ways to still make Christmas as fun. I just haven't found them out yet.

Is there a way to discuss differences in belief that doesn't harm your relationship? Absolutely there is but this is not what I find typically happens. Let me give you an example of just one scenario. At Utah State University, there are two preachers that frequently hang out around the fountain. They write messages on a board inviting others to chat with them. For an unsuspecting person, this might seem friendly enough. That is until you engage in conversation with them for more than a minute. Then you'll quickly see that it's not peaceful intentions you just walked into. Their billboards are bait for young students. Once they lure them in, they attack and debate with them about being lds. I was already prepared for what to expect but most were not. On two occasions, I talked with these two men for several hours about their beliefs. At the begging of our conversation, I told them that I was not religious and not lds. Despite having told them that, 80% of what they said were negative comments towards the lds faith and how they were wrong. Here and there I corrected them on small things they said that were false but for the most part I just listened and let them speak what they wanted to say. It was not my goal to enter into a debate with them. However, when they asked me questions, typically, they did not listen to me. They would cut me off when I tried to speak and were insulting in their dialogue and tone. They would make assumptions and stick words in my mouth that I did not say. Near the end of our conversation, they asked me if I had been lds before. When I said yes, one of them repeatably called me a liar for having told him I was not lds. As a friendly gesture, I offered to help them carry their stuff down to their car. On the entire walk down, the younger fellow was on his phone complaining to someone about "Mormon Jesus" while the other man continued to accuse me of lying about being a member. Kindness does earn kindness though. When we reached their van, they offered me a ride that I politely declined and it felt like that act of helping them at least made some difference. I never talked to them again except to say a friendly hi as I walked bye to class. I wish this was just a one time thing but the sad truth of it is this scenario is not so very different from that of virtually every other past experience I've had with protestant christians wanting to have a "friendly discussion". It's the whole mind set of "we're helping you by being ****ing insulting" that is so irritating to people. If you want to have a friendly relationship with someone, don't preach to them about why they are wrong. Instead share why you believe your beliefs are correct and how that makes you happier. If the person is not interested, don't push it on them. Let them believe as they want even if you believe with every fiber of your being that they are wrong and going to hell for eternity because they don't agree with your take on religion. Agree to disagree and move on. Don't be a pr*** over it. It's as simple as that. Now when members of these faiths are encouraged to go out and have debates with other churches about why they are wrong, that is not going to come across as friendly. If that is your goal, then I'd say your chances of not ruining a relationship are 0%. However, if that is not your goal then you'll do just fine. Most people are not unreasonable and if you treat them with respect they will do the same for you. I'm just trying not to jump to conclusions about your "I would really like to address the differences in beliefs with them, but in a non-judgmental, loving manner" comment. It wouldn't be the first time I've heard that. On to your second comment though. Online, yes, a lot of LDS do get WAY WAY WAY offended over little things. I think that is partly online people for you and the fact that you can't put your tone of voice into text. You would have a better chance finding non judgmental lds members in person. Heck, there are people on this forum I totally skip past any post/comment they make but that isn't everyone. Read the comments from the posters you think are non judgmental and skip past the rest. Anyways, good luck to you.

I never once said people cannot do as they please. Nor I was I complaining about consequences to leaving the lds faith. You make it sound like I'm saying it is pointless for someone to do a sealing at all. By all means, be sealed in the temple if that is what a person believes. However, I feel it would be a nice thing to hold a marriage outside of the temple first in order to allow others to attend. If you're unhappy with me for saying that, then that is fine. But don't snap at me because I have a differing opinion than you. I'd have thought it obvious why a non member wouldn't be shouting for joy about not being able to attend their loved ones wedding. If you can't understand why a non member would be disappointed by being unable to attend a wedding of their loved one, then I'm not sure what to tell you other than to reread a few posts in this thread. You could also try asking those that feel broken hearted about not being able to attend their family member/friend's wedding.

Why do you have to tell anyone you had your name removed? Just don't bring it up. The only one that would actually have to know is your bishop. You could even ask him not to announce your baptism in sacrament. That way you only have to share that you were a former member to those you feel will not judge you. I don't know how many would actually judge you but if they did then you wouldn't want to associate with them anyways. Just hang around the nice members and after you get to know them well enough, then you can share that you were a former member for awhile if you like. I just wouldn't go around wearing a sign on my head saying "FORMER MEMBER REJOINING". That's just my opinion. Personally, I don't tell but a handful of people in person that I'm not lds. Even my own roommate doesn't know I'm not lds. Those that do know I'm not lds certainly do not know that I had ever been lds. Only one or two people in person have I ever told that and only after having known them for well over a year. There just isn't a reason to go put a label on yourself. I hope that helps and good luck with your rejoining!

I agree with RMGuy and idahommie. My brother was just married yesterday (Saturday) in a temple. It's his choice but I felt like it was absolutely pointless for me to go just to sit outside of a temple. Imagine sitting outside on a church's steps waiting for the wedding of a friend or loved one to get out. Then you get to watch the bride and groom take a few pictures outside the building right before they drive away in their car. That's about all you get to see. My lds sister married outside the temple first before ever being sealed. I remember that event well and it was a wonderful wedding. In my opinion, I'd agree with getting married outside a temple first and then marrying in the temple after. That way all your family can actually attend. To each their own though. I don't know of a great way to tell someone they can't attend the wedding without them feeling at least a little let down about it.

You have both missed my point. I'm not talking about whether a person gets a fair and equal chance to join or understand the lds faith. I'm talking about people who never join the faith, for what ever their reason that may be, will not EVER go to the Celestial kingdom. Plain and simple. Again, I didn't want to argue these things and I'm not going to any further. Vort asked my opinion and I gave it to him. That is all. I'm done with this topic.

How did I know you were going to say that? I don't think you read my post very well. Regardless, I chose to hope there was a slim chance you weren't just looking for an argument but unfortunately I was wrong. It's not the first time you've demonstrated you're only looking to correct people and claim your way is the right way and the only way. I'm not going to waste my time with you anymore and will simply skip past your comments as I have done in the past.